///M5

Going from F/4 to F/1.4 with the same light at the same iso you need to change your shutter speed from 1/60 to 1/500. It is a MONSTER difference. Another way to say that is going from F/1.4 to F/4 in ISO you would have to go from ISO 100 to ISO 800 or more importantly ISO 1000 to ISO 8000. If you ever need 8000 for anything you should stop, grab a tripod or of course better glass. A body buys you Focus first and foremost, after that ISO performance. The rest are just settings they all have. Conveniently glass buys you more in that you can greatly improve the focus (it takes light) and remove the necessity for having low ISO noise.

If you ask around you can probably convince someone to GIVE you a kit lens. They are seriously pointless.

Again, the body is the LEAST important thing. Shop glass, not bodies. If you are truly stuck in the budget domain, that setup will absolutely get MURDERED by a mirrorless for the same dough. Not even in the same ball park.

No way. Both those lenses are throw aways and somewhat useless (ie, $100 used at best). I would also MUCH rather have someone elses used 3 yr old camera than a refurb. Basically means you are paying nearly $500 for a refurb body that you can get on sale for about that. Terrible deal IMO.

Had a couple martini's with my neighbor a couple nights back. That pucking worked.

If I had that money to burn I'd be a happy guy

You pulling a Favre?

Crazy to see a QB from my home town get drafted.

Other than that you should lay out your real budget and then find lenses that fit in it and see what body you are left with. Decide if that is okay feature wise and bam.

I will also restate the mirrorless. If you won't buy serious glass the only reason to buy a DSLR is the viewfinder. If you've never used one though you won't miss it.

A 40D with a 70-200 will take some SIC pictures

There are also good Sigma & Tamron primes, but they tend to be more money. For more reach, Canon does have a great 135 f/2 but really once in that range I'd actually grab the zoom. The 70-200 they have is without compare and definitely one of the strongest reasons to own a Canon.

Yes. 28mm 2.8 is $150, 50mm 1.4 is $330, 85mm 1.8 is $350 -> all new. Those are all harder to source used, but it does happen. I said Mirrorless on your end because of the children comment. You probably want integrated video as well...of course, that can come as an upgrade later.

$500 is mirrorless range. Point and shoot cameras are pretty much useless.

There are some really good Tamron lenses, but image quality and super zoom is an oxymoron.

Nice work and attention to detail.

It is terrible for learning though. High ass Fstop and Zoom. Neither help you figure out the camera...

My parents also fell in that trap and have a 28-300 which is at my house if you wanted to try it out.

Also, don't succumb to thinking something like the Tamron 18-270 is a good idea. It blows kit lenses out of the water, but sucks donkey dick. And yes, I own one. Thought it was a great idea initially.

If you go shoot a ton of shots and become comfortable, then when you compare brands you will get a much better feeling.....but again, compare LENSES not bodies.

If you still want to save money and are unsure you can buy used from National Camera or BH Photo. Both will stand behind the used purchase as well and you should be able to trust their condition statements. The savings won't be as good, but it is akin to buying new in the comfort zone spectra.

Anything with a lower fstop of higher than 2.8 is also not so interesting.

ALL kit lenses are garbage. Don't even consider a kit. Serious waste of budget.

Buy something disposable then and start there. Grab a new 1.4 50mm and a $100 camera body. Worst case you are out $100. The way you are shopping is confusing things. The websites that do reviews normally do so in a way that is biased for a particular reason to show off their preference (imagine that). All of that is somewhat useless without some practical experience. There is a strong maturation curve when using a DSLR as well. ie, you start out wanting to take pictures which is fine, but understanding and setting your aperature and shutter speed is huge. To learn the tradeoff's just set your ISO to 100 and start playing locking one or the other. That is also the beauty of the 50mm in that it is such a short focal length you can use relatively low shutter speeds and still be effective which is great when you are first playing in the SLR world.

Matt can fill you in better where the used consumer market ones would fit. Canon/Nikon both have the problem of the leapfrog. Release new prosumer, next year or 2 the consumer leaps it in some aspect. For instance at somepoint between the 40d and 70d there is a good used buy. Not my thing though, I'll take the shutter life of the better body and controls. For a temporary try out a hobby though they could be good.