One thing I will say about "underground" speaker companies is their willingness to custom build. I sent Elemental Designs an email yesterday asking if they could rebuild me old Audiomobile Mass motors. They responded within 30mins! They told me they could build my new subs and at a very reasonable price. I smell a pair of underhung 15s in the near future! I don't think too many mainstream speaker companies would be willing to custom build subs with other manufacturers motors.

That is completely possible. That doesn't, however, mean that they sound like a wet fart...it means you heard an install that sounds like a wet fart.

This hass been the whole point I have been trying to make for a few posts now...maybe you're hearing a sound you enjoy, but I doubt you know what the cause of this sound is...and thus, drawing a correlation between what you hear and what is used to make the sound is not something that you (or many people) should make.

There are extremely few people that can honestly sit in a vehicle and compare products one on one because they just don't understand what makes one end result different than the other. I think I'm close but I'm not there yet....

edit: I will use the "hamburgers cooked medium rare" part you mentioned, since it also relies on an interpretation or use of the senses.

Let's say I pass you a plate with a hamburger on it. The hamburger meat has had various non-visible additives included. All you've got to go by is taste. Let's say you don't enjoy the taste of this hamburger...is it the meat at fault? Maybe it's one of the additives...but which one? How do you know? Can you draw a direct conclusion on the meat's quality based on the taste if you don't even know what differentiates the taste of one hamburger from another?

I agree with you, and see your point 100%. There are only a handful of people on this forum, and not a whole lot in general who could give a real break down of what makes driver X sound Z (louder, clearer, etc) over driver A. I am not one of them, but I think the OP was really looking for a more general response and just light conversation. I coud be wrong thats the thinking my response is based on.

I agree with most of your post. There is simply better value and better support amongst these "underground" companies. Not necessarily better performance, though (quite different than value) as both parties are equally capable of making a good product.

My post was aimed at Lord Baccus who thinks all JL Audio products are garbage and sound like wet farts.

One thing I will say about "underground" speaker companies is their willingness to custom build. I sent Elemental Designs an email yesterday asking if they could rebuild me old Audiomobile Mass motors. They responded within 30mins! They told me they could build my new subs and at a very reasonable price. I smell a pair of underhung 15s in the near future! I don't think too many mainstream speaker companies would be willing to custom build subs with other manufacturers motors.

99% sure they are more expensive than going through Fi, if that bothers you. I think going rate at eD is something like $100+shipping (depending on the parts) while the rate at Fi is something like $85 + shipping. And with Scott and co, you get someone who really knows how to engineer and build speakers.

One thing I will say about "underground" speaker companies is their willingness to custom build. I sent Elemental Designs an email yesterday asking if they could rebuild me old Audiomobile Mass motors. They responded within 30mins! They told me they could build my new subs and at a very reasonable price. I smell a pair of underhung 15s in the near future! I don't think too many mainstream speaker companies would be willing to custom build subs with other manufacturers motors.

99% sure they are more expensive than going through Fi, if that bothers you. I think going rate at eD is something like $100+shipping (depending on the parts) while the rate at Fi is something like $85 + shipping. And with Scott and co, you get someone who really knows how to engineer and build speakers.

I did inquire online to Fi about a rebuild...though price was not discussed they said that they could rebuild off of the motors. However what I wasn't so keen on(and never really got a response about) was the fact that they would be rebuilt with overhung coils. I quess they don't have underhung coils for this motor. Where most motors/coils are built to work together wouldn't paying a little extra for a "properly" matched coil/motor be beneficial? I always LOVED the sound I got from my Audiomobiles and figured it was due to the linearity of the underhung design which is why I was so excited about getting these motors rebuilt. What effects would an overhung coil have if mated with an underhung motor design? Would I still retain the control underhung designs offer? Would I gain a little xmax where as the overhung coil will sit higher in the gap creating more distance from the backplate. Would the TSP be really wacky because of the two different syles merging? These were some questions I was wondering about going with an overhung coil/underhung motor. Any thoughts?

They said they would rebuild with an overhung coil? What's the point in that?

I'd go eD, too, if that is the case.

This was the actual repley:

How tall is the top plate? I'm not sure if we can do a under hung design or not, but i know we can re-cone those motors.

Thanks!

-Nick

I agree with most of your post. There is simply better value and better support amongst these "underground" companies. Not necessarily better performance, though (quite different than value) as both parties are equally capable of making a good product.

Glad I'm not too far off here, I hoped it came across as a value point more than sheer performance. While some companies simply do have better products than others, that's not to say that it necessarily will be the underground.

I run Fi subs, but Memphis amps. I was originally going to run SoundStream 10,000s till I bought one offline and had it burn up the second it was installed (Installed properly, the moment the vehicle was turned on Something was wrong internally- maybe damaged during shipping that caused parts on both sides of the board to burn up.)

Memphis had a good warranty and could be bought at the local shop for a good price. After problems with the seller who UPS returned the amp to and he kept the money severing all contact with me and this forum, (you SOB Jordan Singleton), I trusted the local shops amp better than another one purchased offline.

This was the actual repley:

How tall is the top plate? I'm not sure if we can do a under hung design or not, but i know we can re-cone those motors.

Thanks!

-Nick

It's a TC-9 motor so it is definitely reconable...but you won't be getting back anything close to a Mass with the switch to the overhung coil.

What the new Xmax, Qts, Qes, Re, BL etc. would be depends on the coil they put in there. But you won't be getting a Mass back.

I agree with most of your post. There is simply better value and better support amongst these "underground" companies. Not necessarily better performance, though (quite different than value) as both parties are equally capable of making a good product.

Glad I'm not too far off here, I hoped it came across as a value point more than sheer performance. While some companies simply do have better products than others, that's not to say that it necessarily will be the underground.

I run Fi subs, but Memphis amps. I was originally going to run SoundStream 10,000s till I bought one offline and had it burn up the second it was installed (Installed properly, the moment the vehicle was turned on Something was wrong internally- maybe damaged during shipping that caused parts on both sides of the board to burn up.)

Memphis had a good warranty and could be bought at the local shop for a good price. After problems with the seller who UPS returned the amp to and he kept the money severing all contact with me and this forum, (you SOB Jordan Singleton), I trusted the local shops amp better than another one purchased offline.

Ahem....Great Soundstream products as usual.

I wouldn't own anything made by Soundstream in the last 5 years...even going back further than that, I'd really only be interested in the old Refs.

There are lots of good mainstream companies out there, but some of them aren't quite as motivated to make excellent products because they've already got a name. Especially when these companies have gone from the hands of credible engineers and audio enthusiasts to the hands of larger corporations looking to bleed the money out, ie. what's happened to Soundstream and PPI. Or they get into tight financial positions and can't afford to innovate anymore, ie. MTX and Rockford. Of course, MTX and Rockford are improving now, while Soundstream and PPI will probably never be the same.

edit: You mentioned Memphis...they are in a decent position because, from what I understand, they have been able to keep overhead low, accept lower margins, and sell at a lower cost, making them a better value buy for most customers...which is what most are looking for, anyways. They aren't really pack leaders in performance, either, but they don't need to be at the prices they're sold at.

Could be wrong on some of this stuff...it's just what I have observed.

edit 2: I have to give Memphis credit because I totally forgot about some of the new things they've been working on. Though not the first to get involved, there is nothing wrong with attacking the full range class D area...and I think they have a couple shallow-mounts on the horizon, too.

This was the actual repley:

How tall is the top plate? I'm not sure if we can do a under hung design or not, but i know we can re-cone those motors.

Thanks!

-Nick

It's a TC-9 motor so it is definitely reconable...but you won't be getting back anything close to a Mass with the switch to the overhung coil.

What the new Xmax, Qts, Qes, Re, BL etc. would be depends on the coil they put in there. But you won't be getting a Mass back.

The underhung designed subs ED is selling come from a company called Haxo. Their underhung motor is a 3inch design with a flat backplate. It appears to have the same magnet slug as the Audiomobile and the same top plate. I think I might get a little extra throw if they use their soft parts with my motors because my motors have a bumped back plate with more clearence.

The Haxo subs are identical to the old Crystal Mobile Sound drivers. eD says they're made in the US, but at the very most, they're assembled in the US and I'm not completely sure of that, either. Could be wrong.

The extra clearance isn't really a big deal because it's an underhung design and most of the travel is in the gap.

The Haxo subs are identical to the old Crystal Mobile Sound drivers. eD says they're made in the US, but at the very most, they're assembled in the US and I'm not completely sure of that, either. Could be wrong.

The extra clearance isn't really a big deal because it's an underhung design and most of the travel is in the gap.

The Audiomobiles claimed an xmax of 25mm+/-. The Haxos say about 18mm. Is that due to the coil or motor? Both? I wonder what kind of results I will get.

Edited March 19, 200817 yr by nstaln

The Haxo subs are identical to the old Crystal Mobile Sound drivers. eD says they're made in the US, but at the very most, they're assembled in the US and I'm not completely sure of that, either. Could be wrong.

The extra clearance isn't really a big deal because it's an underhung design and most of the travel is in the gap.

The Audiomobiles claimed an xmax of 25mm+/-. The Haxos say about 18mm. Is that due to the coil or motor? Both? I wonder what kind of results I will get.

I don't know their exact top plate geometry so it is risky to say, but I'd guess that the coil on the Mass is much shorter than the one on the Haxos; this is also evident in their BL^2/Re. A shorter coil on an underhung driver typically means more Xmax: Xmax is roughly equivalent to the height of the top plate minus the height of the coil divided by 2. It also typically means less L in BL as L refers to the length of coil in the gap.

Just a relatively educated guess.

what are the pros & cons of an underhung sub please

what are the pros & cons of an underhung sub please

Underhung designs (as I understand them) are coil/motor designs in which a shorter coil is utilized within a large magnetic gap accomanpied by an extended top plate. The idea is that the shorter coil stays within the motors magnetic feilds of flux throughout its entire positive and negative stroke. The result is a coil that is not only controlled by the physical restraints of the suspension but is also always controlled electromagnetically. This design is inherently linear. The advantages are obvious. The disadvantage is typically a shorter throw subwoofer. There are other disadvantages but I'm not familiar with them all. An overhung design typically employs a longer coil with varying size magnetic gaps in which a portion of the coil will move outside of the magnetic gap at the zenith of both the positive and negative stroke. The major disadvantage is the loss of magnetic control on the coil as it leaves the gap. The magnet can only maintain control on the windings of the coil that remain in the gap. Most subwoofer designs are overhung.

However TC Sounds developed a variable density coil in which the coil windings are incrementally more dense towards each end of the coil so that as the coil-ends leave the gap the end that remains has more windings still within the magnetic gap. Sort of balancing the magnetic control of the coil. From what I have read it seems to be a very linear design. Of course these are all general statements about the motor geometries and there are all sorts of other design elements to be considered. But these are the theories as I know them. I'm sure there are plenty of forum members that could explain it better.

Edited March 21, 200817 yr by nstaln

Good explaination.

Wow i learned something new today

oh and to be fair i did hear a system last night with 2x JL W7 subs in a Hummer

boxs were JL as well, about 3cf per box with 2x JL 1000/1 amps

and he was as loud as my 1x 15" Pap Moab.

but he had the boxs stacked in a Pacman shape and had a lil cancellation,

but overall was impressed that he was Producing Bass Notes...

the subs were NOT distorting and overall not bad !

there is always a first time for everything

guess i just had to keep an open mind & be in the right place @ the right time...

See it was bound to happen!

I heard a 15" HCCA at the local shop on the Orion 2500 and was more than impressed with the output in their sound room. The bass from that bad boy overwhelmed the XRs they had going and i have never heard that happen in that room before. But The HCCA might not be chit as far as some might be concerned. LB how is the HCCA as far as SPL?

according to the Hype iv seen on the net it should fair well

but i have to say the test that were shown in the videos were done by a bias co.

there fore i will have to see 1 go live before giving any comment, or an opinion!

it does look promising !!!

looks as though it will out handle a lot of Beefy subs if the hype holds true

and given Orion's track record, id say i look forward to getting the chance to view it for myself.

but the SQ boys are going to rant its not a good SQ sub, and i think they may have a valid point

but then you don't buy a Draggster to go get beer