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Actually, that was not my first comment. The discussion started here: On top of that, no where does that imply that it is the designer/builder I was stating was wrong, but the box itself. This surely could be from the owner misleading/pushing the designer in the wrong direction. The comment was pointed indeed, but being a continuation of a previous discussion it was logical. In particular when in the previous thread he himself even stated that the 4th order BP wasn't going to meet his goals. Obviously this would have stayed more productive had he chosen to continue the conversation there before jumping into a build, but that isn't the way it went. One other clarification. My comment was before anyone posted any graph. The graph was posted to help clarify, not the other way around.

These are my thoughts on my trials and tribulations installing the tejcurrent quad alt bracket. My ride, a 2004 Chevy Suburban 1500 4x4 with a 5.3l V8 This is what comes in the box. The hardware is good quality stuff. The bracket is nicely finished. The instructions are of the standard issue variety with some nice color pics. Lets get to the installation. I read over the instructions a couple of times just to get familiar with the installation process. At the same time I checked the hardware against the instructions to make sure I got everything needed. A packing list would have been nice. There were a couple of typos. This one was a little concerning. The instructions call out for 100mm bolts to mount the alternators, but 90mm bolts were included. The 90mm bolts work, so no biggie, but still should be addressed by the manufacturer. Right off the bat the bracket didn't fit. I removed only what the instructions indicated to remove, and pre-assembled the bracket/alternator assembly as required. When it came to placing the assembly in the vehicle, disaster. The vehicle ECU interfered with the lower alternator. From here on out I was on my own. o_o Here's what I did, hope this helps you. First I removed the fan shroud and the cooling fan. I took out the battery and battery tray. From there I unmounted the vehicle ECU and temporarily located it to where the battery mounts. With the wiring pushed back towards the firewall I tried once again to get the assembly in place. No dice, something wasn't lining up. I removed the power steering pulley. I unbolted the power steering pump from the factory alternator/power steering bracket. Not to worry, the power steering pump is still held in place by a steel bracket on the backside attaching it to the engine block. I proceeded to remove the factory alternator/power steering pump bracket from the engine. With the factory bracket out of the vehicle I'm able to take some measurements and see what the deal is with this mofo not fitting. :\ Here is the bracket I removed. Giving the bracket the evil eye I could not tell if the bosses that the quad alt bracket mounts on are of equal height. I ran the mounting bolts the quad alt bracket came with through the backside of the factory alternator/power steering bracket. With the bolts protruding through, I am now able to measure how much of the bolt extends beyond the boss. If they all measure the same, the bosses are of equal height. Here is how I measured. If you're like WTF, a wooden school ruler? Let me explain. I am going to get this bracket going with the bare minimum. No fancy depth gages, digital micrometers, or CNC mills. Just real simple, real basic tools, and tons of manual labor. See what I do, learn from what I do. If you got fancy tools, have at it your way. If you don't have any tools, and have no clue, here is one way to skin this cat. Back to the measurement. I got 3.5cm for all three mounting bosses. Cool, they're all the same height. Now to get a quick measurement from the boss to the face of the factory alternator/power steering bracket. Here I get about 1.5cm. If your wondering about that little bit I missing since zero on the ruler isn't on the edge. I consider that bit a constant. Since I will be taking all my measurements with this ruler it's not going to throw anything off. Obviously the numbers I am using are not absolute, but they are consistent. That's all I really need, consistent numbers. Now onto the quad alt bracket. Since the bosses on the factory bracket are recessed from the face, the quad alt bracket has three spacers welded on to the back side. In theory, these spacers put the backside of the quad alt bracket in-front of the face of the factory alternator/power steering bracket. Let's see what my little ruler says. 1.4cm is what I got for all three spacers. That's a difference of 1cm, about a washers thickness. Therefore I'm going to have to put a washer at each mounting location. No fun, I can hear the washer falling off the bolt as I try to line everything up. Now that we have that out of the way let's see how everything lines up, or doesn't. With the bolts still in through the backside of the factory bracket I added the necessary washers, and then installed the quad alt bracket. This is what I got. Two thing here are wrong. First, the hole in the quad alt bracket inside the yellow circle is noted in the instructions as being 1" in diameter. It measures 5/8". Secondly, that same hole should be lined up with the hole behind it on the factory bracket, not overlapping it. There is a steel bushing in the factory bracket that interferes with quad alt bracket because of this hole being undersized and in the wrong location. The simple fix would be to remove the steel bushing, but there is more to it than just that. Take a look at this. The steel bushing in the factory bracket is in a raised boss. This raised boss and the ridge next to it are keeping the quad alt bracket from properly seating on it's mounting bosses. Here is a better look at the offending boss on the factory bracket. First things first, out with the steel bushing. Here's what I used. Now to remove the offending boss and the little ridge next to it. Check this out. I basically took a knee, putting all my weight on the foot over the bracket. Then I took a file and with both hands, filed away till the bish was flat. Let's take a look at how everything lines up now. Looking good now. Now just to get the setup to fit in the vehicle. Here is a shot of the vehicle ECU and it's mounting location. For reference the top of the pic is the front of the vehicle. Rivenuts to the rescue. I moved the vehicle ECU about three inches forward in vehicle. Here is the vehicle ECU in it's new location with the battery tray in place The next area of concern is the factory power distribution box. It is mounted onto the factory alternator/power steering bracket, in the exact location that the quad alt bracket mounts the lower alternator. Here is the little booger in it's original location. The instructions mention nothing about relocating this little booger, but obviously something has to be done. I took a closer look at the pics in the instructions and noticed that it is still used, just in a modified position. With nothing else to go by but just a pic and my ingenuity, this is what I came up with. I added a new pair of mounting holes and gave it a slight bend to keep it from hitting the valve cover. Another shot with the alternator in place. Alright, now we're in business. Time to test fit the assembly in the vehicle. The bracket went on, getting the washers in place over the bosses were a pain. A quick visual inspection revealed this. The return line from the hydro-boost braking system to the power steering pump reservoir was being pinched by the lower alternator bracket. Fhawk! This is going to be a real bish to fix. First off I removed the drivers side inner fender, just to get a better view of the area in question. Here is a close-up of the main offender. This is a very delicate fix. I am going to bend the fitting straight. o_o True to my word, only simple tools. My main concern is cracking the fitting where it meets the reservoir. I did my best to support the fitting where it meets the reservoir. I used the biggest hex key I could fit in the fitting and slowly bent the fitting straight a little bend at a time. I re-installed everything back in for the umpth-teen time. This is what I ended up with regarding the hydro-boost braking system return line. Finally, the bish is on. That belt didn't go on without a fight. Now that's it on, concerns still linger. Here is a pic of the belt tensioner with the factory accessory driver system. The marks are there for reference. Here is the tensioner with the new setup. The belt is tremendously long, so I'm not sure how much if any this belt will stretch. All I can say is that the tensioner is fully compressed. Unfortunately, the instructions do not mention what the alternator pulley diameters were used when this bracket was developed. My alternators have undersized pulleys, as my high output alternators do. :\ The bish is on. Final thoughts: The bracket kind of works, the instruction manual sux. Good luck, I'm out.

Factory wire size is 10 gage.Per audio que.I agree with Duran 12 is plenty for that power range.

They do have all the pertinant information but why release it when there product is not ready to be released due to parts not be readily accessible. The subs are past production and can be sold as soon as parts come in, they have been tested and designed for awhile now. If the buildhouse had steel the subs would be sold right now. What dont you understand about this? Its not like they made a sub and sold a few without testing them or getting the valuable information to understand there advantages and disadvantages. SSA doesnt release anything extra without something in there hands, so just be patient like the rest of us. This a topic for Will and his accomplishments, not about your questions regarding there subs. Take that to the Zcon thread, thanks

People rallying at the white house just go to show how pucking stupid and ignorant we are as a country. I guarantee you after tonight Obamas approval rating will go up and he just sealed his 2nd term in office. I love my country but the US as a whole is very dumb when it comes to politics.

come on now.. the boys over there dont give a rats ass about the elections. they dont operate on special orders.. they are doing their job. if there job gives them a shot at osama, they will take it. this was not for any election campaign. as far as calling obama a terrorist, idk what it is that you're referring to... as far as im concerned, hes doing a fantastic job turning this country around and stabalizing it. its not shooting back up to prosperity.. but shit. thats exactly what got us into this problem in the first place. maybe, just maybe, hes doing it the right way? hearing it before, and seeing his dead body are 2 entirely different things. hes dead. as for him not being responsible.. if it was obama, you sure as hell wouldnt be blaming HIS right hand man. you're right, gas prices will not go down. and no, our boys arent coming home just yet. osama was just one man in a war of many. good man to take out, im sure it will raise moral of the troops greatly, (this im positive of just from talking to 10 or so service men/women that im friends with).

Why is everyone thinking i didnt apply it right?? I did, it just doesnt work!! Because people want to believe that the way they installed theirs is going to prevent the same outcome. Some advocate heat - which only accelerates the deterioration of the rubber compounds added to the asphalt to increase its heat tolerance. Others, aggressive solvents or using rollers, neither of which make any difference. "Crap shoot" is a pretty good description. Asphalt will either melt or the VOC's will outgas leaving inert crud behind. As has been pointed out already, asphalt isn't a vibration damper. If it stopped rattles it did so by mobilizing the moving parts - duct tape would work as well. If it increased SPL, it did so by sealing air leaks. Asphalt is an inherently unstable material and a poor choice for this application. Installation has very little to do with anything. There have been several asphalt fans who have used incredibly meticulous and elaborate procedures and still ended up with failures. The key is analyzing the problem you are trying to solve and devising a solution that addresses it directly. If the problem is the trunk lid inner skin rattling against the outer skin, a few dabs of RTV silicone will solve the problem. If it's a rattling license plate, 25 cents worth of closed cell foam glued to the back of the plate will be more effective than 10 layers of vibration damper inside the trunk or trunk lid. Whatever the problem, asphalt isn't the solution - unless the problem is roofing related

Congrats going out to Will for his state RECORD for the M5 class, and park & pound class in MECA! http://www.mecacaraudio.com/dnn50/SPL/StateRecords.aspx > 2011 > AZ It's been a long time coming, and he finally made it!

Hey man Thanks a lot for your answer! Its helping me a lot to decide what to get for my bimmer. First question, where did you get that 58.6mm measure for the L4SE? I look around but I keep seeing the actual depth is 56mm (just 1mm more than the 55 we are allowed). If you check this link you will see they are 61.50mm over all depth top mount. Subtract the 3.6mm for the depth of the mounting ring and you get ~57.9mm (Guess I was a small amount off on first calculations. http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Legatia%20L4SE.pdf On the website to buy http://store.12velectronics.com/products/Legatia-L4SE-Speaker-Set.html and even on the spec sheet. However, on the same spec sheet, on the drawings (Page 5) of the L4SE, they have their depth as 64mm? http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Legatia%20L4SE.pdf If it is really 64mm, then thats out of question. But if its 56mm, do you think it would be able to fit? or am I risking a tight fit that might damage the speaker? You might be able to get them to fit with some modification. I chose to not have to worry about that. About the midbass, you are right. 91mm of the L8SE is way out of range. I see the Morel listed on E90post is 71mm and thats the one with the highest depth so Im guessing max fit is 71mm? The Morel need to have a 3/4" mounting ring to even be able to fit. Once you make the ring you have to use their grill cover and remove the stock covers. Then you need to watch the seat runners for fitment. Usually having to indent the Morel grill for fitment. It works, but its extra work you have to do to make them fit. I want to keep my BMW as a SQ vehicle so Im guessing Im most likely gonna go for Morel as I have heard them in person and they sounded great on the midbass area. I agree with you. Morel midbass drivers are very nice. If I decide to go up a class in SQ competing, I will change the stock subs out for some Morels. For the tweets, I think the Legatia L1 Pro R2 Tweeters (Black) are my choice. Great tweeters, watch the fitment though. You might have to do some custom work to get them to fit. The stock tweeters clip in with no other mounting brackets. Search youtube for BSW install and see if you can find the video where a worker of Bavarian Sound Works explains how the doors and tweeter pods mount. It really helped me see everything before I went and stripped everything out. For the midranges, I just need to figure that out. Whether the L4SE fits or not, if not then the L4 should be good enough. The L4s are great speakers, I KNOW you will be happy with them. They have been in several world champ SQ cars I really appreciate your help! Hope you can answer these questions. My responces are in red

he was also asked HOW it was incorrect. and he did say it would sound like shit

As duran said, 12 gauge is fine. Short runs can handle plenty of current

If you guys wanna hear the truth you should tune into the Alex jones show it's live right now from 11am to 2pm central time.

12 gauge wire is more than enough. Their direct lead is a gimmick.

On the HDC series it was 8 gage.Or call DJ at audio que.

Sorry, misuse of "you're" and "your" bothers me.. No worries Seriously though guys, enough is enough. Play the sweeps, get the numbers, and let it be done with. Dragging it on like this is pointless. Just my opinion. *EDIT: No bashing me please

Not going back to quote, but to the dude who mentioned about people rallying at the White House, GO FUCK YOURSELF. It makes sense, rally around the area of happy news, mourn around the area of sadness and pain. I am proud of the ment who got his ass, and I hope this does not turn shit ugly. I know it will, but I hope it doesn't. J

It's measuring harmonic distortion. Which is why they give you a test disc that plays specific frequencies, as it will only be capable of measuring the harmonics of those specific frequencies. If you, for example, play a 60hz tone then there will be harmonic distortion at 120hz, 180hz, 240hz, etc. The 60hz tone is the fundamental and the multiple of the fundamental is the order of the harmonic distortion. So 60hz is the fundamental, then 120hz is the 2nd order harmonic, 180hz is the 3rd order, 240hz is the 4th order, so on and so forth. So all it's doing is measuring the level of the harmonics in relation to the fundamental and when it gets to a certain level it lights up a light. I can't give specifics of it's design or explain exactly how it determines when to light up (as I simply don't know), but that's basically the jist of how it's going to work.

LET ME Know What You Think

I think the pricing is spot on. The extra 10 bucks isn't that much, if i would be in the market for that kind of sub i would buy it. Not only do you have a great woofer, you get great customer service too. Not really something you get from DD, and DD costs almost double..

Yes.

Fixed.

By your own reasoning then the party that sought to disprove the designer/builder should " show" his evidence why..................... Again the 1st comment in the thread by M5 was, "Ouch, someone's math is confused. Very confused. That box will not sound good...I don't even need the Skar T/S to tell you that."

I guess I missed the details. What box/amp setup? How are optimal enclosures being built when t/s specs are unknown? It looks like alot of people have these subs yet "Joe Public" is told that the manufacturer doesn't have metal to make them. As a potential buyer things are looking a bit strange with these ZCONS.

I was merely making an observation, which seems to be a reoccurring theme where M5 continues to be an abrasive, opinionated person who makes no effort to act the way a moderator should. 46k posts and I'd bet half of them are belittling and insulting people while seemingly trying to provide "help". No matter how smart he seems, the dude is a pretty big douche most of the time. He thinks he's above everybody...it's pretty easy to see by his actions. I've seen quite a lot of posts and he has much more informative posts then these kind of posts in this thread where he has to defend himself because people don't understand him. M5 sometimes writes things that are difficult to comprehend. Colered is the important stuff, seems like some people don't read it, so i used colors to make sure they read it. so.. you posted to tell us that if someone is a moderator on a website, they obviously have credentials, but having credentials on the internet is pointless because people lie all the time.. soo..... once you figure out what you really want to say, feel free to try again. You don't get it don't you? Having credentials on the internet is useless, but if one of the owners of the site know him and seen what he has done or what kind of work he does, that makes him have good credentials. Seems like you try to make people feel less...That's why someone said that arseho comments are made. Same thing, trying to point out the little things and not admit the whole reply on itself is correct. colors..most important, because people read over it. Well excuse me that on a build log that was posted M5 blasted the designer/builder. "Someones math is confused, VERY confused. Its not gonna sound good." That was his very first comment. That's constructive criticism? Without rhyme or reason just blast the design because he "could have done it better" but he offers no advice. Just criticism. As for credentials... what does it take to be a "Tech crew" member??? Hours of sitting at a computer with programs and graphs? Or actually "BUILDING" enclosures for 10 years. I cant look up M5 anywhere to see what hes done except thousands of post on the internet. As for the builder/dsigner?? Google, Db Unit, then You Tube Iamamp3pimp and when done check out BASSHEADS.ENT Lets not talk about the hundreds of customers that are loud and sound good thanks to him. Why else would people defend the builder/designer if he didnt know his shit lol hmmmmmmmm Talking shit is what this quote is all about.. Reread what M5 wrote. He wrote that the math isn't correct,you should redo it. He didn't say: "THat sounds llike total shit , it will never work, break it out yo, you need some ho's to make it louder... That's why he said "similar" instead of just similar.( do you see the difference? ) Not everyone competes or builds things for themselves. They build for other people, design for companies behind the curtains. I think i wasted to much time for the thread, but i wouldn't want M5 to leave because some people don't know how to read his comments. He has a serious amount of knowledge , certainly in the top 10 of this site. But he doesn't like to give the total answer, he wants people to search for themselves. Kind of weird that M's reputation is 365, this means he has done quite a lot of good responses.

I was merely making an observation, which seems to be a reoccurring theme where M5 continues to be an abrasive, opinionated person who makes no effort to act the way a moderator should. 46k posts and I'd bet half of them are belittling and insulting people while seemingly trying to provide "help". No matter how smart he seems, the dude is a pretty big douche most of the time. He thinks he's above everybody...it's pretty easy to see by his actions.

Sorry I accidentally gave you a negative one when I was trying to hit multi-quote so if someone would fix that for me I would appreciate it. Its just as easy to get it cut into a roll by the same people that make it, and I assume you product if made in the U.S. comes from the same kind of place if it doesn't then it may come from over seas because it would be a lot cheaper to get it cut into sheets if it did. Its actually foil no B.S. here. I will admit that back then I did not know as much information as I know now and I am still know expert now. And I had never gotten the chance to finish all the video's I was going to make. I had planned on testing how well it sticks by hanging a weight from it and see how long it takes for everyones deadener to fall. Then testing how hot it can get before falling and also test it on some sheet metal. And I don't know were you got the idea of that, that was in my parents driveway. lol In the video it kind of shows my surroundings and there are several buildings that look the same, A.K.A. filmed at my apartment. First of Audio Technix is not made by Protect-O-Wrap and has no affiliation with them. It is made in a completely different state. Also Don the new configuration was not announce with in days. Don't make your self try to feel to almighty. Also the reason I asked all these companies for samples is because I truly wanted to know what all of them are like. Then I got an idea for a product that I liked and thats where it all started. I do not believe everything should be covered in deadener. I have told several of my customers to apply a little where they feel its needed then test and at that point they can determine whether or not they need to put more on. There are also several products that are made on rolls and personally I like it being made on a roll. IMO it is a lot easy to install that way. I am not going to argue with you on here or go back and forth all day. If you want to go back and forth and argue give me a call on Monday 832.257.8825 Since this topic was brought up I figure that gives me the right to post of some video's for Audio Technix Also here is a picture of RAAM Mat that you called the best bang for its buck back in the day Don. Just picture to show you how good Raam Mats adhesive is attached to there aluminum. There is lots of air pockets between the adhesive and the aluminum. I wouldn't trust this stuff in my car. I just tried to do the same to Second Skin, Audio Wrap, and the Audio Technix proto type deadener I have (which does not use as good of an adhesive as the real product will have) and couldn't manage to do it.

Obviously your arrogance has certainly gotten the best of you. My questions were just a questions. They were extremely concise and you didn't answer them directly. I'll ask again. What have you accomplished in the realm of car audio? Have you had any sort of direct involvement in car audio competition?

sorry man tryin to get my post count up =] thanks for the fix =]

Just a question here bro ... Just how many of M5's post have you read ??? Apparently, not many ... If you read all 10 pages, you would have noticed that only M5 was the moderator in question here, not the other moderators ... So I don't see how you could say that all the SSA moderators got bashed on ...

without argument, you make no progress. you have to be intelligent and giving in your arguments. hold true to the things you know as fact, and give on the things that you're unsure about. now then, m5, why the hell would it take weeks for you to post that link? while it doesnt change everything you've said, it certainly makes a little difference. you at least started off pleasantly enough. however, in my experience, some of what you said is incorrect.. 4th orders are "normally" bigger than ported boxed. obviously there will be scenarios where that does not hold true, but there will be many scenarios where it does. i can see that you had some form of constructive criticism way back when. so what happened to it? how can you go from that to deciding that a box wont work when you dont know all the other variables? and how in the HELL can you call out the designers and tell maliboom he needs to find new ones? absolutely nothing you post can change those situations, and THATS why you're on trial. as for the whole credentials talk, its not that hard. http://www.termpro.com/asp/competitorstats.asp?Competitor_ID=79589&Season=2011&Method=202 thats obviously not all of my history, but down at the bottom.. you'll see world finals, and the #2. and the funny part is, that doesnt make me an expert at all. but it at least means i have an idea of what im talking about and im not some 30 year old man sitting in my mothers basement being keyboard commando. btw, m5, im not calling you a 30 yr old man sitting in your mothers basement.. lol.

Welcome to M5.com, tis why I left several years ago. Book smart with no real world experience but his "word" is gospel around here. I used to waste my time offering advice and dared to go against what he said, so he started PM'ing me because I dared to speak out against the great Oz....