The Neighbors BM'er is a 328i, I looked some up this morning, One like this is only 25-30k. BUT they are rear wheel drive witch is a NO-GO for me.

Huh? That is an E46, if you look hard you can find one for $10k. $15k would buy you a very nice one.

Amusing, FWD is a No-Go for me or my wife. No way, no how. I don't need understeer in the snow. I'll take a well balanced RWD ANY day of the week in inclement weather.

Guess I need to look at the badge better.

I will take the getting pulled felling anyday over the getting pushed. I own 3 4wd's and still drive my Honda all winter except for the very worst days. I like how I can over/understeer with the throttle and really turn with the e-brake.

Huh? Why would you EVER want to understeer.

The e-brake will work in any drive format. In a RWD you can turn with the throttle, with front you CANNOT.

I will take the weight over the drive tires anyday.

A fwd turns harder when the steering tires are also pulling, NOT just getting pushed where the weight of the vehicle is getting pushed.

I have never been to MN but I can only imagine it must be pretty flat, because You won't get very far with RWD only here.(the ditch)

Hmm, you really need to open your mind. By FAR the best winter car I have ever driven (outside of snow clearance) was a naturally aspirated Porsche 944. Perfect 25% weight in each corner with a nominal driver. That is ALWAYS the best way to have traction.

Putting the weight over the fronts does not help you turn, nor does it help you stop, it also makes it easier to spin. The ONLY advantage of FWD is the same advantage that 4WD has that puts everyone in the ditch. From a dead stop perhaps you can accelerate faster. To me turning and stopping are MUCH more important in inclement weather.

MN is flat, but not all of MN and RWD doesn't get you in the ditch not knowing how to drive does. Going off the road accelerating is pure operator error, going off because you can't stop or turn isn't. There is no way you can argue that FWD is better for either of those.

Little history piece for you as well. FWD exists as it is cheaper to manufacture and for an average person they don't notice the difference. So some manufacturers choose to save money and compromise on all areas of performance. Others choose to do the opposite and refuse to cut that big ass corner.

You probably drive all automatics too, but that doesn't make them better. I use the gears to slow down on ice and snow, NOT the brake's. A RWD car's ass will slide side ways a soon as the you start up a hill, a FWD will go where the tire's are pulling it. As an example Sean, When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

A FWD corners better? I'm not believing this...

Yeah and you probably think your Caddy is RWD too.LOL

Yea... like totally my caddy is RWD and teh greatest thing ever!

FAIL. Go look again.

I do believe your sarcasm detector is on the fritz...

I do believe your sarcasm detector is on the fritz...

Or he doesnt posess one

or that

I went to the Petersons Automoible Museum in LA and they had some REALLY neat Caddys like the first ones from the turn of the century.

Ya his comment must of went right over my head. My Fail.

sunroof is now officially out for the count. it has been flexed into non-commission. and if it was raining right now i would be absolutely fucked.

dammit!

Barely above freezing for well over a week and it snowed like it's the middle of December. After it stops snowing, the sun comes out and melts everything.

Couldn't even put masking tape on the flare mold because of the cold

Picked up some H&C Concrete - Products - H&C

When I am stuck on a snowmoble, I can have a single person pull a front ski to get me moving and or it would take several people pushing from behind. Simple Physics is the reason for FWD not cost. A FWD or AWD car will handle and corner better than a RWD anyday.

Believe me brother I am the FARTHEST from close minded person you will ever meet, But I do like a good debate.

I'm confounded by that logic.

Lets make a different example (same physics). Go outside and fill a sled with wood and try to push the sled, what happen's? Now pull on the same sled, what happens?

I think it has NOTHING to do with different muscles, Just the fact that the force is being applied in the most effective place.

If it is still Physics explain how the force vector is different.

I can make this simple. If you apply X force in the Y direction on the same object it will move the same whether you are pushing or pulling.

If you argue, realize you are arguing with Sir Isaac Newton and not me. His 2nd law is all you need to know to prove yourself wrong.

Oh, and my driveway is far from flat.

You have a hell of a driveway. I would hate that thing in winter.

Amusingly about 5x a year I have to get my friends (usually their girl friends) unstuck in their FWD cars. So far no RWD has ever slid off the driveway and needed to be dug out. Torque steers a bitch. And they even have crappy cars with shitty balance putting a ton of weight on the front.

Bad comparison, Operator error. How Do I know that out of all the people that drive up your driveway other than you, Even drove RWD. Concidering more cars are FWD nowadays the odds could be stacked on that one.

An unloaded truck has worse weight dispersion than a FWD car.

More of my friends drive RWD, so your logic fails. I know it was operator error as they started to lose traction they kept trying to drive up. In a RWD car that would have been fine, but the torque steer on the FWD dumps you into the snowbank. The good ones stop when they start to slip, put on the e-brake and come get me out of the house. That has happened a plenty as well.

Actually it is 100% cost. Cars didn't require a frame that went FWD. FWD will NEVER corner as well as an RWD. Perhaps you know of some front drive race cars?

As for the ass sliding sideways this is unrelated to which wheels are driving, but the fact that you are out of traction. If you have cars that are equally balanced (ie 25% at all corners) and you are trying to drive straight up a hill the RWD will just spin and the FWD car will torque steer causing you to go off the road.

If you have an unevenly balanced car, well then it is going to handle like shit no matter what you do as that is always a bad idea.

A history lesson for you, People learned about weight to power ratio is the reason cars are built without a frame. There are AWD and RWD cars that DON"T have a FRAME. Do I need to name a few?

there are a ton of different racing classes, ALOT of race cars have the engine in the back over the drive tires, Others use a spoiler for down force. They also design the front of race cars to have ALOT of down force.

I agree that an AWD car will handle best.

LOL. Really, I understand there are options without frames, but the reason that FWD exists is cost. 100% as there is no performance advantage. I also realize that there are rear and mid engine cars, but that is irrelevant as we are discussing average passenger cars and I don't think anyone considers a 911 an average passenger car.

If you want to argue otherwise, what is the advantage exactly of FWD?

FWD was not developed for performance, They where intended for better gas mileage, and better traction (in snow) .

Wrong on both accounts. FWD cars are LESS efficient than RWD cars. The damn CV joints insure that. And it had NOTHING to do with traction in the snow.

Just because it's FWD doesn't mean it weighs less and has less parts. There are plenty of FWD vehicles that weigh just as much or more than full frame or unitized vehicles with RWD, 4WD, or AWD.

Also, weight is no guarantee that your mileage will increase.

I know what you are trying to convey, but front drive platforms were only developed simply because they were cheap and effective for the manufacturers.

With a design goal of light, again the RWD would win...and does. It is way simpler to make drive axles that don't have to turn.

The top cars in this list are ridiculously light.

Top Gear Track lap records - FastestLaps.com

Go ahead and show us your FWD performance vehicle in that list and how they all rank on the top as they handle better. I will also guarantee that you put snow tires on any of the cars in that list and run them on sheer ice and they will handle unbelievably well. Much better than any FWD car with snow tires.

Just a hint, it is a long way down the list before a front driver makes it.

I would consider that pretty unbiased testing as well, although obviously adjustments for weather should be included and aren't the general list is at least ranked within a few cars appropriately. Amusingly there aren't that many AWD cars either.

TOp

FWD was not developed for performance, They where intended for better gas mileage, and better traction (in snow) .

Wrong on both accounts. FWD cars are LESS efficient than RWD cars. The damn CV joints insure that. And it had NOTHING to do with traction in the snow.

Why are you trying to compare a FWD to a Performace car? Not the intended use.

FWD car will not lose traction in snow as easy as a RWD car WAS the debate. I can do donuts ALL day long in a RWD car and will be bouncing off the curbs trying to drive in a staight line, on the other hand a FWD car is hard to get to lose traction. True?

FWD was not developed for performance, They where intended for better gas mileage, and better traction (in snow) .

Wrong on both accounts. FWD cars are LESS efficient than RWD cars. The damn CV joints insure that. And it had NOTHING to do with traction in the snow.

Why are you trying to compare a FWD to a Performace car? Not the intended use.

FWD car will not lose traction in snow as easy as a RWD car WAS the debate. I can do donuts ALL day long in a RWD car and will be bouncing off the curbs trying to drive in a staight line, on the other hand a FWD car is hard to get to lose traction. True?

I wasn't you were. You specifically stated that FWD handled better.

RWD does not make you slide sideways so no I won't agree. RWD may spin, but won't slide. When FWD spins it slides for sure and is impossible to keep in a straight line. Any sort of trouble too and you are completely effed in a FWD car. Amusing that you are debating about acceleration anyways as anyone who drives in inclement weather should know that turning and stopping are what is important and where you get into trouble. If you get into trouble accelerating in a RWD car it is 100% operator error, you can't say the same with a FWD car as they are not predictable although again it is still mostly operator error. I see no traction benefit to a FWD car.

I think the problem here is you are comparing your RWD experience with a really shitty car or one with a terrible weight balance. Then indeed a shitty car of either variety will suck.

And yes I've had plenty of experience with both including in the Mountains. I used to drive SHO's including one that was "slightly" hopped up.

Crap I forgot your sarcasm detector doesn't work very well. By "slightly" I mean somewhere just around 2x stock power.

Speaking of the SHO, I just looked at the 2012 Focus and it looks like a baby SHO. If It comes boosted, I may look into them.

And yes I've had plenty of experience with both including in the Mountains. I used to drive SHO's including one that was "slightly" hopped up.

I'm tellin' ya: 5 foot airplane wing bolted to the hood!

chicken's in the fry pot; sonofabitch that stuff smells gooooooood

I have slowly braised my stew meat after searing and at some point it went all wrong and the meat is dry. WTF! best tasting stew I've ever made for flavor but the meat isn't so amazing damnit.

on a totally different note....

I am almost 100% sure my next car will be one of the next gen 5.0 mustangs. The wife likes it, we're putting out a plan to get one in a couple years and maybe replace the expy with a 4 door pick em up round the same time...