Active 2-way with Full Range driver for the top end?

This is not meant to be a pick my driver for me topic. My new dilemma is because of Adrian, he put the full range bug in my ear and I am starting to question my plans. I am not as versed in full range drivers as many others are on this board, so why not use the knowledge base.

Setting:

car - Mazda Protege5 wagon

original front stage plans - Bravox CF603CF's

power - many to choose from, so not an issue

mounting location - FR's or mid/tweet would have to be at the base of the A-pillars (small manual car with no real room in the foot wells)

Now where I am questioning my plans is that I have not had a passive set up in years, but this is supposed to be one of the premier offerings out there. Would be fun to put 200+ watts a side on the Bravox and say I have a $1200+ front stage and a $0 sub set up. I have been happy with 2-way active for a while now, and have the HU's to do it no problem. If I try this approach and were to go active it would be with a pair of AA Carbon's and a quality FR 2" - 3" driver. The advantages on the surface to switch to this approach; much cheaper, much less to mount and aim, less fiber glass work, active control of course, and no massive crossover to hide. I am not forced to go with a full range, but I am aiming for another top tier front stage again. The new TB's look interesting for sure. I do still have my SEAS neo textile tweets if I were to go a more standard 2-way active route.

Don gave me a nice link to read: http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f6/augmented-wideband-approach-car-fi-what-why-how-50/, even though I am not a fan of DS-21, it is a good topic on this subject.

So the over all point of this topic is to get some feedback on Adrian's approach. This is not me doubting it, it is an effort to make sure it is right for me.

Depends on your dash. Lots of potential depending on what your plan is. I love the idea and think I know why Adrian leaned that way

While I'm no expert by any means and I owe thanks to ///M5 as well as others for helping me complete my project.

I went the WB/ mid bass route in my ranger. The logs are in my sig.

I paired them with (4) peerles sls's #830946 and the system sounds great to my ears, however I wish I could have made room for some 8's instead of the 6-1/2's.

I tried the tang band w3's and the fountek FR88's on the dash and I'm very happy with the FR88's.

The FR88's seemed to handle being pushed harder while staying cleaner than the W3's.

I may try adding a tweeter in the spring, not sure if it's the 88's or my ears, but cymbals don't seem "airy" as I'd like.

The 88's do roll off on the top end, but still sound amazing for only 3".

I need to change out my HU first.

In my limited experience this is one hell of a great front stage, especially for the amount of money I have in all 6 drivers, ~$230.00.

I've not read the link (hell, I didn't even know that forum existed), but just a couple quick off-the-top things to think about.

First, you are probably going to lose top end by going with a single 2-3" full range driver......most of them either start to roll off at ~10khz or have rough top end response. And a lot of them don't have great distortion performance over that large of a bandwidth.

Second, aiming is going to be more picky and critical as they are all going to experience beaming well within their bandwidth.....a 2" cone is going to start beaming 6750hz, a 3" driver obviously sooner.

Seems like there's more I was going to mention, but drawing a blank after I started typing Long day.....

What is your goal? Good imaging? Are you using rear fill?

I haven't read the link on MSS either and don't really plan on it, but will clarify on Brad's comments. When the aiming is optimized I don't miss the top end. Best sounding car system I have ever heard consisted of just a wide bander and a midbass. Classic advantage of having nearly all the musical range coming from a point source is huge. I am not much of a high end "sparkle" kind of guy anyways though.

While I'm no expert by any means and I owe thanks to ///M5 as well as others for helping me complete my project.

I went the WB/ mid bass route in my ranger. The logs are in my sig.

I paired them with (4) peerles sls's #830946 and the system sounds great to my ears, however I wish I could have made room for some 8's instead of the 6-1/2's.

I tried the tang band w3's and the fountek FR88's on the dash and I'm very happy with the FR88's.

The FR88's seemed to handle being pushed harder while staying cleaner than the W3's.

I may try adding a tweeter in the spring, not sure if it's the 88's or my ears, but cymbals don't seem "airy" as I'd like.

The 88's do roll off on the top end, but still sound amazing for only 3".

I need to change out my HU first.

In my limited experience this is one hell of a great front stage, especially for the amount of money I have in all 6 drivers, ~$230.00.

Thanks for the reply. There are some new TB's that spec nicely that I was looking at, along with the Aura's etc. I am hoping not to have the need to want to add a tweeter to this set up as it would defeat some of the purpose for me to go with a Full Range driver for the top end.

I've not read the link (hell, I didn't even know that forum existed), but just a couple quick off-the-top things to think about.

First, you are probably going to lose top end by going with a single 2-3" full range driver......most of them either start to roll off at ~10khz or have rough top end response. And a lot of them don't have great distortion performance over that large of a bandwidth.

Second, aiming is going to be more picky and critical as they are all going to experience beaming well within their bandwidth.....a 2" cone is going to start beaming 6750hz, a 3" driver obviously sooner.

Seems like there's more I was going to mention, but drawing a blank after I started typing Long day.....

The aiming issue is what is mentioned in the thread linked above from Don. I was hoping to have the RF come in around 350-800hz and take off from there. The more I can bring forward and lower I can keep the Carbons the better.

What is your goal? Good imaging? Are you using rear fill?

The goal is the best response possible with in my install limitations, while returning to active. Rear whaaaa?

In that thread above, there is a very nice listing of possible audio advantages of going this route. One of those being, in my particular install is bringing as much of the stage up around shoulder level as possible.

I haven't read the link on MSS either and don't really plan on it, but will clarify on Brad's comments. When the aiming is optimized I don't miss the top end. Best sounding car system I have ever heard consisted of just a wide bander and a midbass. Classic advantage of having nearly all the musical range coming from a point source is huge. I am not much of a high end "sparkle" kind of guy anyways though.

I am kind of the same way, when using the 8053, I am usually dialing some out on the very top. Not to mention, I just have never found a metallic tweeter that is supposed to really excel in that crisp high range, that I really liked. The one I could bare the most was from my last 3-way passive set up, the stupid expensive MBQ QSD's of yore.

I forgot to mention, Brads final POV on the 603CF's will effect the direction I take with this.

I have to say I've been thinking about using full rangers in my car too.if your looking for some real nice full ranges, I'd look at mark audio, preferably the alpair 10's. I have a pair in my room and they sound amazing! They cost a bit but they are well worth it

When the aiming is optimized I don't miss the top end.

Me neither and i have heard 2 other setups like this, no problems on the top end. One of them switched from Vifa XT25's to FR's and his top end improved a bit. Might have been aiming though.

Having the unused tweeters in the a-pillars managed to fool a lot of people.

Sean, I think you mentioned buying several pairs of FR's and testing out which one sounds better. Given their pricing that is a very good idea.

Aaron, can the 8053 high-pass the tweeter outputs low ? As in 200-300hz ? I know the Pio 880 can't and neither can Alpines older than the 9833/9835.

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

FR's aimed on axis?

When the aiming is optimized I don't miss the top end.

Me neither and i have heard 2 other setups like this, no problems on the top end. One of them switched from Vifa XT25's to FR's and his top end improved a bit. Might have been aiming though.

Having the unused tweeters in the a-pillars managed to fool a lot of people.

Sean, I think you mentioned buying several pairs of FR's and testing out which one sounds better. Given their pricing that is a very good idea.

Aaron, can the 8053 high-pass the tweeter outputs low ? As in 200-300hz ? I know the Pio 880 can't and neither can Alpines older than the 9833/9835.

That is a good question. I have not used it in over a year. Maybe someone can jump in that knows off hand.

The parametric goes down to 200Hz on the 8053 and the HP you can do at 200/250/315/400/500 which should "cover" you well enough to pull this off. Ideal, no but when you have one driver taking the brunt of the music you can easily accept that compromise.

http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/manuals/manual_pdf/CD8053%281-1441A%29.pdf

Page 94

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

The hope is to get them down as far as I can, towards the bottom of the A-pillar. I lost the link because it was last night when I was reading it, but one person mentioned aiming the FR's up reflecting off the glass to raise the stage and reduce any beaming.

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

The hope is to get them down as far as I can, towards the bottom of the A-pillar. I lost the link because it was last night when I was reading it, but one person mentioned aiming the FR's up reflecting off the glass to raise the stage and reduce any beaming.

Eek. Stop reading recommendations. Just build some temporary pods and aim them all around yourself. EVERY driver and EVERY car/dash will be different.

My recommendation to others as was stated earlier is do read objective test results and opinions on drivers, pick a couple, buy one of each and start playing in your own ride. Considering these are all in the sub-$25 range pretty much it really won't hurt that bad.

On top of that when you are done you could build little mini-monitors for your pc out of the ones you don't choose for your car.

The parametric goes down to 200Hz on the 8053 and the HP you can do at 200/250/315/400/500 which should "cover" you well enough to pull this off. Ideal, no but when you have one driver taking the brunt of the music you can easily accept that compromise.

http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/manuals/manual_pdf/CD8053%281-1441A%29.pdf

Page 94

So if I go this route, 8053 > 880?

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

The hope is to get them down as far as I can, towards the bottom of the A-pillar. I lost the link because it was last night when I was reading it, but one person mentioned aiming the FR's up reflecting off the glass to raise the stage and reduce any beaming.

Eek. Stop reading recommendations. Just build some temporary pods and aim them all around yourself. EVERY driver and EVERY car/dash will be different.

It was just what someone else did in their install that I had not thought of for a FR.

The parametric goes down to 200Hz on the 8053 and the HP you can do at 200/250/315/400/500 which should "cover" you well enough to pull this off. Ideal, no but when you have one driver taking the brunt of the music you can easily accept that compromise.

http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/manuals/manual_pdf/CD8053%281-1441A%29.pdf

Page 94

So if I go this route, 8053 > 880?

In fact, 880 is a no go.

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

The hope is to get them down as far as I can, towards the bottom of the A-pillar. I lost the link because it was last night when I was reading it, but one person mentioned aiming the FR's up reflecting off the glass to raise the stage and reduce any beaming.

Eek. Stop reading recommendations. Just build some temporary pods and aim them all around yourself. EVERY driver and EVERY car/dash will be different.

It was just what someone else did in their install that I had not thought of for a FR.

That someone either has funny ears, got really lucky, has a very unusual car, or just did something and is now defending it. If it was for a smaller portion of the midrange it could be a different story, but when you are dealing with 250-20kHz (+/- some nominal amount) then it is a dangerous proposition to play with reflections. Your best bet is always to minimize them, not to "use" them.

And to re-highlight the success and failure will depend on your mounting locations and aiming. Ramos's phrase here REALLY is important. 90% install, 5% equipment, 5% beer.

If you can't do dash pods and aim them right then I would worry about the top end, but if you do you are golden.

The hope is to get them down as far as I can, towards the bottom of the A-pillar. I lost the link because it was last night when I was reading it, but one person mentioned aiming the FR's up reflecting off the glass to raise the stage and reduce any beaming.

Eek. Stop reading recommendations. Just build some temporary pods and aim them all around yourself. EVERY driver and EVERY car/dash will be different.

It was just what someone else did in their install that I had not thought of for a FR.

That someone either has funny ears, got really lucky, has a very unusual car, or just did something and is now defending it. If it was for a smaller portion of the midrange it could be a different story, but when you are dealing with 250-20kHz (+/- some nominal amount) then it is a dangerous proposition to play with reflections. Your best bet is always to minimize them, not to "use" them.

Agreed.