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I remember back when JL was beginning. They were much akin to SSA. A fact that makes it even more impressive is they didn't have the internet back then to grow their business. Everything was word of mouth and the small amount of advertising in magazines. They've always had great products, always will. I would snatch a brand new driver at that price point no matter the opposition. The best thing about the W7 is it's resale value. You can buy that driver, use it for a couple years or more and sell it for the same $400 you paid for it. Simple economics wins here. Now the beauty about SSA is the personal one-on-one support and detail. YOu can't call and talk to Manville anymore, but I can tell you he is just as enthusiastic as Aaron and Mark. The small internet brands allow us to have more of a relationship with our vendors and get some awesome technical support at drastically reduced prices. You never know; one day we could be comparing a mainstream SSA driver to a small internet brand. I can recall a short while ago a company by the name of Resonant Engineering which was a small internet manufacturer.

alright guys, just got a little more serious in the car audio game. i'm just 16 and this is my 2nd setup. vehicle: 2004 jeep liberty columbia edition 3.7 v6 goal start working on a spl setup while still being able to have functional daily use. setup alpine cde 9874 pioneer DEQ 9200 EQ all 0/1 big 3 alpine 6.5 type r components alpine f-300 pac lc-1 bass knob stinger voltmeter blue led's some interstate extra battery. upgrade soon! alpine m2000 fi btl 12, dual 1, cooling, hiXM coil, daily, heat ring, universal, red dustcap custom box i made with 2.69 net cubes tuned to 36 hz side view of my ride partially built box and amp here are a few pics of the box/sub future planned upgrades: dc alt 200+ amps xs power battery fatmat of entire vehicle. i pay for all of this myself and i do everything i can with the funds i've got. please reply with suggestions or comments peyton

After getting several e-mails and calls about Sensitivity of subwoofers and seeing quite a bit of forum action regarding sensitivity I've decided to post this up... Sensitivity does not = Efficiency on a subwoofer on LOW bass. This is regarding industry standard sensitivity measured at 1khz -- this is where the spec is measure on 99.9% of speakers in the world. Hoffman's Iron Law dictates that out of sensitivity, small box size, and low-end extension you can pick two and the other suffers. In car audio, especially, you want small box and good low-end so sensitivity will typically be lower than a home audio woofer -- where you can use a large box and then have both high sensitivity and good low-end. Since we have done quite a bit of SA-8 testing recently I'll use it as an example for the rest of the discussion. Some recent SA-8 testing results to demonstrate this... measured in Sean's CRX in a box tuned in the mid 30s: SA-8 / CCAW Coil (83.42 dB 1w/1m) D2 : Frequency / Power / SPL 25 - 430 - 123.9 30 - 400 - 127.4 35 - 300 - 129.0 40 - 210 - 129.6 45 - 120 - 128.7 50 - 90 - 128.5 SA-8 / Copper Coil Stock (78.6 dB 1w/1m) D2 : 25 - 470 - 125.0 30 - 240 - 131.1 35 - 140 - 132.9 40 - 100 - 132.6 45 - 170 - 130.7 50 - 270 - 129.3 Take note low-bass fans... at 30 Hz the copper driver with nearly 5 dB less sensitivity is using 60% of the power and is 3.7 dB louder. So... which one is more EFFICIENT on sub-bass by the real definition... output per watt. The CCAW coil doesn't pull ahead in real efficiency until out of the really low sub-bass region @ 50 Hz. So... sensitivity should at least pan out in maximum SPL, right ? We put in the SPL box tuned very high and still... not as much effect as you might imagine... the CCAW coil achieved 151.0 dB @ 1310 watts and the copper 149.9 dB @ 1600 watts -- not nearly as much as one would imagine by the 5 dB sensitivity different, huh ? Even at lower power... both drivers at 250-watts we have 144.9 on the CCAW and 143.3 on the Copper -- just 1.4 dB down at 68 Hz... for a HUGE gain down low. Is the higher sensitivity driver a better choice for peak SPL ? Yep -- that extra 1.5 dB will win the show... but is it worth a nearly 5 dB loss at 30 Hz (adjusted for power difference the actual loss is about 5dB) for a daily system ? In the minds of most car audio enthusiasts that would be a HUGE "NO SIR!" ----- This testing was done in-house for my own purposes of product development and not to simply prove a point... but since the point needs to be made I have decided to share it. Product design is a balancing act... with an 8" woofer on a standard diameter spider landing you need a certain amount of stiffness to hold up to what people do to drivers in the real world. On a driver like the SA-8 by the time you get to that level of stiffness a bit of additional mass is needed to drop the FS to a reasonable level so we used a copper coil to get there. Can I soften up the CCAW driver spider a bit and help the low-end ? Sure can -- and we'll be testing that too. The sacrifice is you end up with a less mechanically rugged driver that, in terms of VAS, wants a bigger box while at the same time the bigger box further compromises mechanical power handling. In terms of the SA-8 we are working on different spider tools and so forth to try and get around some of these things. So far the combination we have is the most effective for what most people need / want. If we end up being able to improve on it without sacrificing durability then a v.2 SA-8 will be born.

got meh 6 new subs, and Jacob just sent 2 recones 2 baskets SA-15's

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someone on SSA used a clay compound behind the speakers before, that kind of trick should insulate the back of your tweeters and mids as well... Obviously need to put a "shield or median" between the speaker and clay... Someone help me explain this:? Actually that was to help with the sound, explained in Impious's Buildlog. OP is the water getting in between your door frame and door panel or does water get on the grill of the tweeter with the window down. If it gets on the grill then it is really nothing you can do besides change the mounting location.

awesome customer service SSA also OP the 60$ you paid did it say for 2 or 1 sub? if it said 1 sub then yes you will pay another 60$~ and if it says for 2 subs then expect to pay 30~ but if it gets sent via CP (Canada post or USPS in america) these charge will go down!! and hey if you paid for 2 subs on your customs papers and you one got 1 you YOU can bitch to them! call the number listed and see if you can do anything. tell them what is up and what SSA is doing to help you and maybe you can get them to find out what happened and they can help SSA? long shot but still worth it. it is worth a shot since SSA is helping you out you can try something also! I know I would!

The W7 is not always the best value but is always one of the top performers, surviving a decade filled with subwoofers designed to knock it off its perch. I've never used an Xcon but I'd never turn down a W7 at a price I could afford. Just because a product is mainstream doesn't mean it is any less deserving. Buy the best product that fits your budget.

I havent seen this mentioned at all and i've seen this happen MANY times... he said he has an Optima and many Kinetiks and 270a alt.. Optimas that are frequenctly charged over 14.4v AND that are mixed with different technology batteries will fail QUICK. I cant even tell you how many people have stopped using Optimas because of this. It is my belief that the OP should REMOVE the Optima COMPLETELY from the vehicle. Get a DMM, remove ALL kinetik batteries and let them sit disconnected for a couple hours, then measure voltage on each batts terminals. What i think is happening is this- The kinetiks are dumping a load into the Optima because the Optima has partially failed. In this state, it will ALWAYS be requesting a load. If this battery has an independently lower voltage than the Kinetiks(which it will), then the kinetiks are trying to "charge" it when the vehicle is off. This will cause the kinetiks to lower their voltage... when the vehicle is on, all batteries are now low... so the ALT is trying to charge ALL batts and the stereo system. this is a very likely scenario. So.. remove ALL BATTERIES from vehicle and remove them from each other. Test EACH battery after they have sit for a couple hrs and report voltage level. I would also let that optima sit for 24hrs and remeasure voltage to see if it's changed.

You need a fuse at the front battery, and one at the amplifier, both are there to protect the wire and the vehicles charging system in the event of a short.

You'll end up more pissed when you spend a bunch of money on a high powered amp and sub and end up blowing something up because you couldn't actually support the system, or when you don't get anywhere near full potential out of them because you couldn't properly support the system. IMO you're in over your head. If you weren't even aware of what the "big 3" were, you'll do way more damage than good with a high powered system. You can't toss a 2kw+ amplifier on a stock electrical system and expect to get anywhere near full performance, in addition to running the risk of damaging equipment. What is your budget for everything.....amplifier, electrical system upgrades, etc? What can you replace/add/upgrade as far as the electrical system is concerned? What does your electrical system consist of now?

Don't see why it would be a problem......it will work perfectly fine on any amp rated stable down to 2ohm. And really, the DCR isn't that odd-ball. DCR on a 12W7 is 2.47ohm. Compare that to a Fi, who's "dual 2ohm" subwoofers have a DCR of 1.4ohm/coil which when wired in series for a "nominal 4ohm load" would be a DCR of 2.8ohm. So the DCR of the "3ohm" W7 is .33ohm lower than the DCR of Fi's drivers wired to "4ohm".

Really, you couldn't be more wrong. The W7 was basically the first low distortion, high linearity, high output driver in the market. The entire purpose of it's design was to improve BL linearity and reduce distortion while also improving output capabilities by increasing cone area and maintaining a high Xmax (which aside from shear output, the benefits of high displacement capabilities are also a benefit from a "sound quality" perspective as well). Really, it's pretty telling that the design is nearly a decade old now and it's still in the top tier of high performance offerings on the market. You might say "Nonsense! I've heard the subs in my brother's Dakota and it didn't sound good at all!".....and that very well might be the case. But that's not a fault of the driver. Chances are, it was probably a fault of the installation, enclosure, tuning and/or setup and settings. Which makes your listening experience rather meaningless as a point of comparison. Of course it's possible (but unlikely) that the setup, installation and tuning was perfect in your brothers setup. It's also possible (and more likely), that you simply don't enjoy the sound of a lower distortion, linear driver. Your subjective definition of "good sound" might simply be different than what the W7 offers. But that's a difference in subjective preference, not a difference or deficit in "sound quality". But again, since this is based completely on subjective opinion, it's rather meaningless as a point of comparison. I would find it hard to believe someone could spend the time, thought and expense to design a driver like the W7 with all of it's unique and innovative features without being in love with audio. It pushed the envelope of performance and innovation a decade ago, and is still holding it's own a decade later. Also, keep in mind JL Audio got it's start as a mail order speaker business. They were essentially the equivalent of today's "underground" (internet) brands. They just happened to do it extremely well and as a result have grown and experienced a lot of success over time. That really doesn't make any sense. Every business is trying to grow ? I would say JL took that idea to a new level when they designed and released the W7.

a couple pics of the interior work i did while here at school in Wyotech in blairsville pa!

Think about this before you go any further. This list is >50% complete of the thinking process you should go through when planning a system. This is just a "starters" list but will greatly help you. I can tell you from experience; plan your system out thoroughly before you buy anything. It really sounds like you are clueless on equipment choices. You will save yourself a lot of money and frustration if you have a solid game plan. I. Your budget will more than likely be the constraining factor - plan to buy what you can afford (both financially and electrically) A. break the cost down to individual components 1. Electrical - if you want 10,000 wrms but can not afford 2-3 alts. and 5-10 batteries then you can not support the power you "want". Can you afford an alternator? Is there an aftermarket alternator available for your car? Can you install it yourself? Can you afford aftermarket batteries? Do you have the money for the necessary wiring? Wiring gets very expensive! What you "want" and what you can afford and are capable of installing may not be the same. 2. Head unit - DVD? Navigation? Ipod compatible? 3. Signal processor - Do you need an external crossover or EQ? 4. Front stage - What fits in your car? Can you custom build speaker locations? DIY custom fabrication can get expensive as well. 5. Rear fill if needed - Do you need rear fill for your style? 6. Amplifiers - Based on your vehicles electrical output and/if you are upgrading the electrical, what can you support? Again back to the example 10,000 wrms = 1000 amps. A good rule of thumb is 1000 wrms = 100amps. It takes power to make power. If you want to buy thousand(s) of wattage amplifiers you need to calculate the power requirements to support it. If you can not support the power requirement then you should not buy it. 7. Subwoofer(s) - The last decision. Based on the power you can buy (READ----->power you can afford and support) you can decide what subwoofer(s) you want. If you can support 1000wrms amplifier then look for a <1000wrms subwoofer. Now that you (hopefully) have drawn yourself a neat little diagram of you components, add up the total. Can you afford it??? Can your vehicles electrical afford it with or without upgrades??? Can you build it??? Can you afford to have somebody else build it??? Seriously take the time to plan this out!!!!

as promised and I even sanded down the top so it would mount nicely with a belt sander and a LONG level! like a 5ft level lol

Both are great speakers. I have owned 4 13w7s on 4 1000/1v2s and it sounded pretty good and got decently loud. I have never heard an Xcon, but I have heard Icons and I actually liked them better than the w7s. I'm sure I'd like the Xcon better than the I con as well. Another thing to think about if you go with the w7. If you do ever blow it and need a recone, be prepared to pay about as much as you're paying for the sub itself now.

So much for a thinking thread. More like a waste of everyone's time. You have enough experience to know how to make a thread right and when you do you KNOW you will get an answer that will be really helpful. Not sure why when others ask you for simple information you should have thought of before the thread you want to walk away as it is now work for you. Go ahead and abuse others time by asking the question, but then don't bother to put in your own to make the question worth answering This is crapaudio.com, a little effort goes a long way.

Just because the smd and the nightshade like smaller boxes does not mean it is okay to do it. When I was trying To fit 2X 18" in my car I was going with nightshade v2 in the smallest enclosure possible and I was risking losing alot of the lows that I love and you do also. I would do a single 15" in an optimal box it will sound louder to ear then an 18" in a smaller box. I know you want the "damn that man has an 18" sub" effect. I did to but don't sacrifice your happiness for a wow effect lol

just got the SAX-200.4

pics as promised! sorry for some of them. my Droid camera acts up some times. car stripped couldnt get "thru" the grommet. so i went around. running speaker wire doors and door panels. tweeters are flush mounted. final. (i need a new door handle and handle surrounds) lol. and i have the stock tweeter covers. just gotta put them on. What you guys think?! not bad for first install right? opinions welcome. thanks -jonathan

The REV-665 puts out plenty of power. Don't get caught up in numbers.

That's the one I thought might be garbage I think. It's the Prestige 27TFFNC/G or H1396. It's only $33. I sometimes feel like how the he'll could somebody produce something that sounds good for super cheap. I could be wrong. My only problem is that Fs is 1170hz. If I dare cross it at around 3k with a 24db/oct slope it might hold up but I would like to know that I could cross the tweet a bit lower and still not blow it out. I believe the rule of thumb is 4 octave higher than a drivers Fs. And that would be 4500 for these small things. Far from the 2k I'm trying for. Something to consider I guess especially at that price point. Have those tweets and I ran them down to 2200hz for a while.

got the sundown gear. got some pics. gonna run .5 ohm daily due to box rise. FYI the box the subs are in is over a cube too small and tuned too high. my new box is being built and im not playing them until i get the box. these numbers are just from a day of testing. straight out of the box. got the new ones with the magnet cover saz 3500d now lives underneath the floor. WOO on music at 52 hz

bangin i ended up with the sub placed upward on the top left and port on the right facing the back; and also no clear coat . does okay but im going to port the other side once i build my new box when i get my new btl

Ok. This will be the last time I will respond with regard to what I have and have not answered or included. I have included ALL the components besides the sub arrangement that I am currently working with. I will not sit here and break down the specs of each component just to get some SUGGESTIONS as to what a quality SQ oriented tweeter is that would fit into my equation. All is have been asking for is suggestions. I don't need somebody to tell me I need to overhaul my entire system in order to buy a tweeter. Car audio is the land of imperfection and like I said before it's like chasing the end of a rainbow. I may buy 5 or more different drivers until I like the way things sound. Oh and then I might even get tired of the way it sounds and want to change it again. This whole discussion again was for BASIC input for a quality SQ tweeter and is turning into something completely different. Sometimes forums really suck. This all reminds me of some of the guys on the other forum I frequent. You ask what is a quality exhaust manifold to achieve XYZ and instead of offering suggestions they proceed to pick apart your modification process and tell you that you should just build the motor and tranny first which costs 10x what the exhaust does. What begins as a simple question results in somebodies mental barf bag with no conclusion. Oh my. 4xforce OUT!

My my.. Always gotta make things complicated..

Heres my opinion: Jl audio is mass produced and although the research is there there speakers are JUST AHHHH AHHH AHHH no SQ at all. but on a good note you only need 1000rms to make them MOVE! my brother in law had two 13.5 W7 in a dakota with the matching Jl audio 1000.1 V2 to each speaker and it POUNDED no doubt about that but I had 1 18" BTL in a jimmy and a hifonics amp and was POUNDING just as hard as him. Underground companys(not mainstream) are in this for what it is the LOVE of the sport or hobby/ I would suggest the XCON because the money is going to be put to a better use like supporting a company that is trying to GROW and make a way better PRODUCT then mainstream for a fraction of there price! Mark is a great guy and the XCON is a great product. I hear 1 12" XCON in a trunk and I would of voted that it was 2 for sure..... It was CLEAR pounding bass as well. You could feel as well as hear every note POUND! so from one who has heard and felt both I VOTE XCON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yea i could, id have to have someone else do it because i dont know how to do that stuff, how much is that going to cost me? 10ft of 0 gauge wire, wire terminals, and a fuse holder. Very simple. X2, I could have my 89 year old grandma with Alzheimers do it

The only thing good about anything you post is the chic in your sig. I can't believe you have the ability to piss off so many people so easily. I know this from the many people that have messaged me saying how much of a turd you are. You have not mentioned anything useful yet continue to talk in circles for your personal amusement. You have 50k posts on a forum dude. That speaks for itself! Denim.....my apologies for the above. Thanks for the hook up on the Leviathan and for your post above. I am just now getting everything together after a crazy holiday season. I really find it hard to believe guys like M5 are allowed to even operate in any capacity on this forum. Makes me not want to be a member here at times. Happy New Year to you all! Except d-bag M5.

And here comes the M5 nutswinger! Once his balls are off your chin tell him that I can appreciate what he knows and the time he spent on my thread. He needs to understand how to communicate a little better. I asked a simple question and received many great responses but M5 just could not get it straight. Car audio. Is always trial and error but you have to start somewhere. I asked for a quality tweeter of a certain size that would possibly integrate with the other equipment that I have and his responses were vague at best and pointed towards replacing a bunch of my equipment just to narrow down choices of tweeters. I am not offended big boy. You carry on and nutswing to your hearts content. I am educated, successful and mature so your remarks really mean nothing. Oh and how much time at the computer with a bottle of Jergens in one had and your unit in the other does it take to compile over 7000 posts? Food for thought!