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It's always interesting reading these type of threads, you get to know a few members the way they actually are and how much they actually know. I am happy M5, Impious, Shizzon and other people who actually know what they are talking about stay on here instead of giving up.

After reading this entire thread, I have an analogy for everyone. Consider this the in-between perspective: A man goes to Vegas and watches a Criss Angel show. Everything he sees that night has him believing Criss is a sorcerer/wizard/what have you, so he goes back to his Podunk town and starts describing what he saw to his friends at a bar. His friends, only having what this guy has to go off, now believe just as much about magic. But there's another patron at the bar: one of Criss' stage techs who fully understands how the illusions are performed. He tries to reason with these guys (who are probably, by now, quite intoxicated) about the logic behind how these illusions are performed. Madness/hilarity/mass argument ensues. Just as much as the stage tech is getting frustrated with the Podunk townspeople, the townspeople question the outsider about whether or not what actually happened is magic. That is this thread right now. It would behoove both of you to take a step back, forget about your titles/credentials/etc and have a meaningful discussion about the validity, lack thereof, or however you feel about the situation. I respect both sides' views of the subject and (for once) am removing my own, but for fuck's sake, let's be adults about this.

You can get a Russian sub and I will get an American one tattooed on our wangs and find some sexy slutty ginger, and play hunt for red October. Get a $5 bill tattooed on your johnson. It works awesome... If the wife wants to blow some money or wants to grab some cash you got it covered.

Which was a clamp. Absolutely useless test. If that is the best that he could do, doing nothing would be better. Proved nothing other than the fact that the tester doesn't understand testing. As for discussing bashing, There is some bashing going on and it is well deserved. It is not bashing a person, but a test. When a test that is full of flaws is posted and some "podunks" started to defend it without understanding anything it is bad for any forum. The only thing any of us who are knocking it down care about is the fact the test was horseshit, the results worthless and using it to draw conclusions is idiotic. I don't know nor care who Taylor is, he obviously doesn't know any better was confused by the internet and performed a test based on information that was well above his head. Unlike those defending his test at least he understood that well and decided not to post as he realized the uselesness of what he had done. If you all would stop taking things personally and instead read objectively this would have gone over easier. It isn't like all of us at some point haven't wasted time doing something we thought would do something else. Next time perhaps though instead of blindly defending ask for details on why and try to understand what was done.

Claimed or not, do understand that there's a large concentration of easily-impressionable people on CACO and other forums that will take the clamp as gold because it came from a consumer using stuff they can't just walk down to Harbor Freight and buy with their weekly allowance. Just as much as we all get annoyed to hell about companies marketing by Max Power/Burst ratings, the techies are getting frustrated with clamp tests to determine the value of an amplifier being used as gospel by the novice crowd and are doing their damnedest to squash the impression that it CAN be used as anything considering an accurate test. If I were to go on CACO and make a thread explaining HALF of what's being discussed here, would I not just get flamed out of existence? So how is that any different from a forum of people who go by empirical evidence forming up against a thread saying that there's bad news for IA because a clamp was done on one of their amps that made things look bad?

I sense you starting to get into the troll realm considering you already said you had no reason to post on this thread anymore...I see all of this as pointless bickering at this point, the point has been proven for all parties. The point is, this test is neither pinpoint accurate or inaccurate to the point of being invalid. It was performed to give a general idea of amplifier power. And it does just that. Everyone can dance around that fact all that they want, but it's still true.It's not true, now matter how many times you type it. And that clearly is not how people are interpreting the results consider the number of people using this test as "proof" the amp is "over rated", and then apparently using this single test to question the integrity of the entire brand. Blind leading the blind.

Naive and ignorant statement to assume that's a significant metric. Plenty of people with really stupid ideas and questionable knowledge do well in competitions, both SPL and SQ.But just think of how much louder you could be if you actually understood science and testing.......

New speaker wire

He's got one. It's called a snow shovel. Here's what all y'all need

hmm glad I am keeping up with this thread. Definitely will look into getting one for my car. Good job so far Neal.

Alright here is a little up date. I purchased a cheap VW scanner and to my suprise it worked very well. The car kept on throwing cooling issue codes once the weather got cold. With this $34 scanner I was able to reset the airbag light and it also pointed me to a thermostat fault. Replaced that and 300 miles later not one code for any thing. Another known code pain for VW is the radio, with this scanner I am able to read every system the car has and clear the bullshit codes because people tried to program certain features in the car, like how it locks and when it locks, windows up and widows down. Who would have thought a radio could cause such nonsense. Glad I torn that sucker out and returned very thing to the factory preset. SO if someone were to get a Beetle and experience issues like this go buy this scanner on Amazon, you will not be sorry.

I can't evev begin to describe the fun I would have with this.

Any men left here... ??

Look man, there's no way possible for any of us on here to do any sort of real testing on an amplifier. Testing an amp with a resistor bank still isn't even good for a general idea. These tests are 0 worthless. Sad that your sarcastic statement is the most accurate thing you've posted in the thread. Trying to make amends would be to actually do what was discussed and think about the test. Backpedaling is not doing that. Probably better you quit if you are too stubborn to actually think. Good luck running a business that way.

You can get a Russian sub and I will get an American one tattooed on our wangs and find some sexy slutty ginger, and play hunt for red October.

why worry about efficiency on a full range amplifier?

So what do you have paired with the horns right now? Do you still plan to pick up that Clarion dbl din that is supposed to be active capable? It would seem that maybe Cableguy & Teric's suggestion of taming the horns 1st may help narrow your options.

And this is exactly why I called you out before. Your question was answered, over and over and over. The accuracy of that test may be so bad that it isn't even a generalization of what power was made. We aren't nitpicking on 10w here or there but HUGE percentages in the actual value reported. If you really don't rudimentary understand testing or measuring you have no business deciding jack shit about anything that is ever engineered for audio reproduction. Please go calculate the uncertainty of each and every part of the measurement chain and stack them up. You'll shit.

I wasn't defending anyone or anything if you read my posts. I was just making a point of instead of bashing anyone or any test it would be more tactfullnes to say that the results aren't interesting to you for the equipment used should have been x,y and zip parts and conducted this way to be more accurate. As far as taking this thread personally theres no way, but the direct attack on me about my product was uncalled for and unprofessional.

You seen my truck get really loud and keep it's stage and image, and it has no problems putting a 140 on the termlab ... All I'm saying is time alignment alone will GREATLY improve on what you have now ... even when cranked up !!! Yeah, your truck definately gets loud. Just looking for a little bit more output Again, after driver selection has been made, then I will tackle the T/A and such.

I don't think there is anything wrong with defending your opinion by any of these guys but tactfulness is lacking sometimes by all of us. We all need to stay on track instead of bickering about a set right or wrong. Looks bad for the whole forum.

Thanks Cableguy! But that's exactly my thing, I'm not looking to win any kind of championship. That devotes an exteme amount of time and about 2-3 times more expensive than SPL. I am simply looking for a respectable score, that is versitle enough to get really loud, while maintaining some sort of imaging, staging, and presence/depth. And I totally agree, I need a new headunit with more built in processing. But I want to tackle one task at a time, stating off with driver selection.

It is in, guys, woohoo! Wire terminals Painted the port white, it just needs one more layer.

Another fact, man who did the testing came on here and didn't say squat. Tells a story now doesn't it. If he now decides to post, may his first post just share the uncertainty in his measurement. Here is my analogy again, but now with graphics. You need to measure length. Here is your tool. If you report that what you measure is 3 63/128" of an inch we will laugh at you. If you report 3 63/128" +/-1/4" it would be nearly acceptable although a rather strange way to report. And the sad part is, the actual claim is off WAY further than my analogy. Do the math once and you will understand. If you can't do the math, you don't understand the measurement obviously which really gives your posts credibility.

Going through I don't think they meant you were bashing the company/nick but others. I don't see how they're being sarcastic. Impious, tirefryr and shizzzon were trying to explain. M5 was the only one being sarcastic and was only doing it because tenacious is annoying and ignorant. I don't understand why you guys don't listen to these guys... Zero tact and constantly talking in circles rather than being direct. Discredits whatever they see fit without truly explaining why everyone else should discredit. They act as though they're %100 right, but fail to fully disclose why they are correct and someone else is incorrect. They scream tolerances and calibrations yet never give any real numbers. They never ask what the given tools tolerances are and if they have been calibrated or when the last time they were calibrated. Just because you have technical training behind you and some real world exercise, doesn't mean you have the right to discredit everyone else. It's easy to sit behind a computer and seem all so intelligent. There's a common factor of why a lot of people don't like this forum. Maybe you should go and seek some education and then you might understand just how much money, time, equipment, etc... goes into testing, measuring, certifying etc. Right now it seems that all these guys are "talking circles rather then being direct" but you clearly do not understand this subject. Once you go out and find the necessary knowledge, then you will realize how right these few guys are. Until then, argue on and have fun!! I more than understand this subject. This shit is simple, yet you tech team dick riders and "tech team" want to make this complicated. Maybe you should take some laxative and the rest of the tech team to get rid of the bull shit you guys are full of. I swear you guys could ruin a wet dream because one of her nails was .05mm too long. Yet, every post you make shows how little you do understand and your inability to comprehend. If you understood what was happening and comprehended what has actually been discussed and challenged here, you would never have posted. You keep stating people are typing in circles, yet the ones whom keep complaining about it are in fact the ones doing it. Everything has been explained to you; you just won't allow yourself to understand it as you would have to admit to yourself that you don't really know as much as you think you do. Don't get upset, this happens to us all. How about taking a step back, and just thinking, these guys ARE right and why they are. The simple fact is, the man who did the "testing" and posted this information is simply a hobbyist. His results can not be relied on, yet many people whom don't understand this WILL rely on his "testing" simply because they don't know any better. As long as there are uncontrollable variables, the "testing" is pointless. If ANY of us conducted this "testing" in a similar matter, the "tests" would also be invalid. If these "tests" were being conducted by a lab, by a professional, all testing parameters would have laid out, explained, and discussed in length before any testing had begun. Than and only then could the results be relied upon and only after many amplifiers had been tested not just one or ten.

Exactly. If you challenge them, then you're %100 wrong. This whole thread is dancing in circles. The tools used to do these tests are published. It's not like they're hiding... If you're so worried about certain things, go fucking look them up. Also, it wasn't just a "clamp test" But lets only focus on one aspect of this whole damn thing. God forbid we open our eyes wider This shit reminds me about the argument over linear vs progressive spiders. Shit was completely ridiculous. You guys focus on one little aspect. the burden of proof is always on those who made the claim. in this case the person who conducted the testing. he is responsible for providing accurate information. in simple terms, the results of his clamp test are invalid because they are not complete results (and any conclusions or comparisons he makes are not only false but misleading). this should be very easy to understand.

A lot your guy's responses remind me of soup sandwiches.

lol

Valid measurement procedures and processes don't change regardless of the area of interest. Car audio and quantum mechanics are exactly the same thing as far as measurement criteria are concerned...in order to provide meaningful results, proper test methodologies must be followed otherwise the results are meaningless. Again the fact this is lost on everyone hanging their hat on this and other clamp tests is part of the problem. I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary. Until proven otherwise it's an assumption that must be brought into question in order to objectively evaluate the results. Not just this clamp test, but any of them.Just to clarify that isn't the only objection. But it's a fundamental one, and everything else isn't even worth discussing until the accuracy of the equipment and uncertainty of the measurement has been properly verified and stated. Again the fact this is lost on everyone hanging their hat on this and every other clamp test is part of the problem.

Reread the thread. 95Honda and M5 both posted reasons why. No one supporting the test even responded to those posts with a meaningful reply. And frankly we've discussed clamp tests on this forum a couple dozen times. Last I checked the search function worked fine.... And if you were paying attention, you would have understood this was M5's point. The READER shouldn't HAVE to ask. A valid test conducted in a meaningful and useful manor would have that information presented as part of the details of the test. The very fact we would NEED to ask in itself supports the test's lack of credibility and the fact the tester either isn't aware of these factors or doesn't know how to calculate them, or more likely both.But because he's posted numbers, the internet assumes it's valid and meaningful and it's everyone else's job to prove why this isn't the case. That is exactly ass backwards of how science and metrology actually works in the "real world". The onus is on the tester to prove it's validity, not the other way around. And he hasn't done that, nor have you or anyone else supporting the test....but that doesn't keep the lemmings from jumping on board with it. Though you blissfully skipped over 95Hondas post where he stated he's had Fluke meter with a 25% variance while ranting about nobody citing examples of why the test is flawed. Selective memory? Don't you find the statement about one fluke meter being around 25% off from the actual results rather anecdotal? I've never heard of that issue being had elsewhere.And don't you find the fact we know nothing about the accuracy of the equipment used a little troubling before trusting the results? Obviously not, and that's the problem. You promote the results and how useful they are when you or anybody else knows nothing about them. You claim they are "close enough to count".....but the fact is you don't know, nor does anybody else. And that's one of the problems. Especially when people are using this test of unknown credibility and comparing it to manufacturer's rated power which is a specific measurement, and then making a determination of the amplifier based on that test. Think about it for just a second. Ask yourself why actual amplifier designers and manufacturer's and other's in the audio electronics industry spend tens of thousands of dollars on test equipment if a kid in a basement is capable of duplicating the results for a few hundred dollars? I don't think it's because these multi-million or billion dollar companies are that gullible, but I certain would think it's because the engineers understand proper testing methodology and what is necessary to achieve meaningful, repeatable results. Just because he can post some numbers doesn't mean they are useful, "real world" or "close enough to count".

But, but, but, it didn't do rated. It has to be flawed.... I understand their view, and their concern is not legitimate in this case, in my opinion. The results may not be 100% precise, but they're accurate enough for the purpose they serve. If you require an amp test to be accurate within 10 watts for your personal use.... so be it. I don't. You're the only one name calling here... So you think it's just barely off? For one, the testing method is not consistent. Like others have stated before, it's used for TROUBLESHOOTING, not for proper power measurement. Second, did you know it was recently retested by the same person and now it's went fro 13.5 to 14.6v and gained 3,200w? Now it's over 10k clipped. People are "guessing" in that topic as to how much THD that is.. Bam- guessing.. that method of measuring power is for troubleshooting. For accurate results, testing must be consistent. The 2 tests are not consistent and not controlled due to human error and the lack of THD measurement. You can't state you obtained a certain amount of power without other factors. Tfade has not done anything wrong to defer his measurements. It's the lack of knowledge the audience has that concludes what they think they obtained from that information. The same thing goes for many SMD devices as well but don't get me started on that. So the measurements show a lack of output power.. Well.. that's not right.. Test again.. now we have massively increased power... Lack of consistency and other measurements. Tfade isn't trying to replace proper means of measuring with a low cost technique. He's basically just trying to see if the equipment holds true to it's ratings. The problem is messing with amps of this caliber is not easy because the higher the numbers go, the greater the inconsistency in his testing method. The audience should take THAT as a big potential problem that is hard to control. Even on low power, his method will net him closer to actual ratings but still not concrete enough because of a lack of tools and technique. A power rating consists of a lot more than just 1 power rating with a voltage and a THD rating and not even those 3 things have been met in sync in one test yet. Like i've said many times before, I defer to the manufacturer's testing themselves as they are more equipped for the task.

Nick probably responded because there were multiple pages of people bashing his products and questioning his integrity and he wanted/needed to defend himself and his products. I wouldn't read much more into than that. Otherwise the only useless information in this thread is the link to the clamp test and those comments supporting the method.

Roughly cut out the port with the jigsaw Then I used the router to straighten everything up Rounded over with a different bit for a nice air flow These grooves are very narrow and several mm deep. When I go ahead and cover the whole thing, the fabric it will be cut and pushed inside the grooves for a nice, flush look. Placed the subwoofer for the first time and predrilled the mounting holes. The strings are there to help me get it out as it's very hard to lift a 20kg sub when it is flush mounted on the box

It's not cockiness. It has nothing to do with myself at all, so it matters not how I am. The fact is, there are several membera here who understand what is happeningand whom have attempted to explain this so us remedial people can better understand the complexity of the situation. Members whom have more knowledge and experience than those who continue to find ways to contradict this knowledge with ZERO fact and nothing more than what they believe makes sense. I understand how and why you and Kyle think and feel as you do, but you are not seeing the bigger picture here. People are not challenging your intelligence, but simply trying to open your mind and teach you, but you see it as a negative challenge and you block out even the possibility that your own theory or understanding is incorrect.

But, but, but, it didn't do rated. It has to be flawed.... No one here arguing against clamp tests gives two shits what the "test" showed for power compared to rated. Why? Because the test isn't a valid test to start with, so no matter what the results should be discarded. We've always stated the same thing regardless of manufacturer, regardless of who did the test, regardless of what the claimed results were.Props to Taylor for trying. But trying hard doesn't make the results any more meaningful. I don't care if the amp is in fact over rated. Just prove it with a valid test.

That is the point, the equipment in the video wasn't that of a professional. It was mostly cheap, run of the mill, hobbyist grade stuff. Again, great stuff for troubleshooting, but not for trying to give accurate certification of claimed specifications. This kind of why most "clamp" tests are out the window. And, for the record, the equipment is out there to do proper testing, it just costs a lot more and isn't really justified for 99% of us... Who knows, that amp might make less power with the proper test equipment, but it is irrelevant... But this is falling on deaf ears, so I won't try and get you to understand this anymore.

Some of you guys are missing the point. It has nothing to do with the power made. Even if there is a retest and the results are different it is not a valid test, that is the point. If the amp would have made a gazillion watts I would have taken one glance at the test equipment and laughed... I have had brand new, un-calibrated other than factory cal, Fluke 97 IIIs that were off by 30VAC (while reading 120VAC)... These were true RMS, $500 DMMs... It isn't common, but it happens... Is the load non-inductive? Is it cooled? Is it rated for that kind of power? How much ripple is on the DC input? Then you throw in all the really cheap garbage test equipment that you can't really trust... The stuff is good for troubleshooting, but not for validating performance measurements... I could care less about IA's amplifier performance. But when I see tests that are obviously flawed, I think it is worth pointing out... Stop riding the internet bandwagon and use your brain...

But, but, but, it didn't do rated. It has to be flawed.... But but but.. the owner said he will retest because all testing prior to marketing is correct and will retest.. However once he said that.. many people started bashing the "potential" for his other products to be flawed, etc.. I only trust the owner and\or companies who do this for a living. If one person can be trusted to "fail" an amp publicly, then all companies might as well shut their businesses down because you know what they say.. The customer is always right... So professional testing must be pointless.. We don't care about getting close We, as a business community, care about doing it right. Why would a business rely on a customer's test as the official ruling of their products potential. That is the dumbest thing i've seen this year so far and that's pretty damn bad. But keep supporting the "close testing". We'll support professional test results.

Also, please don't take my views as a simple bash on the guy doing the test. I am only basing my opinion on experience. I just finished up a 2 year tenure here: www.afotec.af.mil I was a suitability evaluator. Basically, I evaluated electronic systems for the military. I used extensive amounts of test equipment and completed objective test reports on military space assets, in other words, I know what I am doing. This is why I have a tough time with a lot of "car audio" tests...

95Honda and m5 have already taken care of most of it. I don't care who he is, or that he has a scope......his method and "test" is flawed for multiple reasons and results are meaningless. And that is part of the problem....people don't understand this, and instead defend and regurgitate the meaningless results. I don't believe I have ever seen a real, meaningful, valid test done by an average (or advanced) user or competitor of an amplifier......ever. That includes Taylor. They don't have the equipment and they don't have the testing rigor. They have the blind leading the blind. Nothing more.

Testing not done in accordance with manufacturer specification, un-calibrated cheap test equipment, questionable load (I couldn't see it)... I have never tested any IA equipment so I cannot comment on their quality. What I can comment on is a meaningless test. This is the problem with the mobile audio world...

Ppi a600.2 Ppi a200.2

with the zcons and the 3500

New rca wires New head unit clarion cz702 New front stage amps ppi a600.2 and ppi a200.2

It makes me feel old to pull the "back in my day" line.....but it wasn't that long ago $1/watt was reasonable and $.50/watt was a pretty darn good deal. Now you have all of these internet rebadger a selling amps for pennies and suddenly $.28/watt is expensive. Well sure all of the other guys stuff are cheaper when they're ordering amps like it's a Chinese takeout menu......order an OEM buildhouse board, make a couple small changes and throw their label on the heatsink.

Thank you, friends.

Made a hole so I can access the fuel pump if something like, I don't know, a swap happens. Added more steel bracing. Added 45° , bigger on is where the port is. Some rounding up. The port is ready

More work

I love amp-guts. they get me to sleep at night.