Is anyone an AES member subscribed to the E-Library?

Or if your a student at a college, I can look up and see if you have "free" access to it.

I don't want to pay $20 on a white paper (Creating Source Elevation Illusions by Spectral Manipulation).

I checked for you and my university doesn't have a subscription . Sorry Stefan.

Even with a membership you have to pay for the docs. Didn't realize that is what you were looking for Stefan. At my old company I could have gotten them for you.

So our ears can't locate a sound source on the vertical axis until around 1khz and up. Biggest cues come from our outer ears around 3khz+. Between 1khz and 3khz torso reflections and shadows give away cues.

If speakers playing these frequencies are placed low, say in the kick panel area, then the stage height will appear lower then having tweeters up on the dash or a-pillar.

It's possible to raise the perceived location on the vertical axis with EQing. Not entirely sure what exactly must be done, but since torso reflections and shadows attenuate frequencies around 1khz+, perhaps adding a boost from 1khz to 3khz would do the trick?

I've only read a handful of studies done on head related transfer functions, some ended up being entirely azimuth related, nothing vertical.

Not boosting ever.

Where absorbing clothes

Finally broke down and bought Back to the Future trilogy in blu-ray.

So our ears can't locate a sound source on the vertical axis until around 1khz and up. Biggest cues come from our outer ears around 3khz+. Between 1khz and 3khz torso reflections and shadows give away cues.

If speakers playing these frequencies are placed low, say in the kick panel area, then the stage height will appear lower then having tweeters up on the dash or a-pillar.

It's possible to raise the perceived location on the vertical axis with EQing. Not entirely sure what exactly must be done, but since torso reflections and shadows attenuate frequencies around 1khz+, perhaps adding a boost from 1khz to 3khz would do the trick?

I've only read a handful of studies done on head related transfer functions, some ended up being entirely azimuth related, nothing vertical.

I went through this whole debate. Placement is everything, so yes better up high. EQ'ing is the last resort in my book if you understand the way the human ear perceives sound and follow the things you know about accoustics during install then you have already awnsered your own question.

I had a Sony deck years ago that had a setting that "raised" the sound of the front speakers in increments . The unit had three settings. Amazingly it actully worked, SO in theory I know you can use the eq to raise the correct frequencys but have no clue which ones.

I just know that install will predict so much and the eq'ing is there to correct anomalies in you particular install due to driver characteristics , install limitations and accoustics after the fact.

Yeah I understand your point, and agree the less EQ the better, but having the tweets on the dash to raise the stage height will also introduce windshield reflections, and so forth. Still EQing.

I know it's not always terrible, but I'd like to keep the tweeter and midrange close together.

EQ is used to reduce anomalies that artificially BOOST the signal. Using it for something else is a poor bandaid.

Before you go nuts reading, do realize that a car is a fucking terrible place to put a stereo so no matter what all classical measurement techniques and approaches fail miserably. That being said, the trade-off's that are chosen should be personal. ie, you can get a perfect stage rather easily in many installs but at the cost of frequency response. What is more important? Not saying that some semblance of both isn't possible, but I bet you aren't willing to go far enough into the install to get there.

Moral of the response? Determine your physical constraints first as they are the ones that really make the determination.

Yeah open room verse a car is quite different, but I still thought it could help, even at a lesser degree.

I didn't want the tweeters up on the dash because of reflections, and I've read that its somewhat easier to tame those from the kick area then a windshield.

Assuming I used tweets on the pillars, on axis, or off. How would the fr overall affect the staging? I thought the reflections from the windshield would wreak havoc on the staging. Possibly the ms8 autotune can work some magic, as it will already be on, and can't be avoided.

Yeah open room verse a car is quite different, but I still thought it could help, even at a lesser degree.

Understanding is a good thing, just don't take it as gospel.

I didn't want the tweeters up on the dash because of reflections

Um, okay. There are reflections below your dash as well.

and I've read that its somewhat easier to tame those from the kick area then a windshield.

And its somewhat harder to deal with large driver spacing. Pick your evils carefully.

Assuming I used tweets on the pillars, on axis, or off. How would the fr overall affect the staging?

The corrections you apply to solve the staging will change the FR if you use EQ.

I thought the reflections from the windshield would wreak havoc on the staging. Possibly the ms8 autotune can work some magic, as it will already be on, and can't be avoided.

Reflections can funk up both FR and staging. MS8 autotune can suck my left nut.

Is anyone an AES member subscribed to the E-Library?

Or if your a student at a college, I can look up and see if you have "free" access to it.

I don't want to pay $20 on a white paper (Creating Source Elevation Illusions by Spectral Manipulation).

I checked for you and my university doesn't have a subscription . Sorry Stefan.

Even with a membership you have to pay for the docs. Didn't realize that is what you were looking for Stefan. At my old company I could have gotten them for you.

From what I read, aes membership + $5 gets paper. Or $20 without membership. But a membership + subscription to e-library is free access to articles.

Im too cheap to spend the twenty bucks. Right now at least.

I should have got a bit one, something with manual control, but the ms8 fit my budget at the time, and I thought it would do everything I needed. Gah!

You can out-distance that which is running after you, but not what is running inside you.

Yeah open room verse a car is quite different, but I still thought it could help, even at a lesser degree.

I didn't want the tweeters up on the dash because of reflections, and I've read that its somewhat easier to tame those from the kick area then a windshield.

Assuming I used tweets on the pillars, on axis, or off. How would the fr overall affect the staging? I thought the reflections from the windshield would wreak havoc on the staging. Possibly the ms8 autotune can work some magic, as it will already be on, and can't be avoided.

I don't get any reflections with this setup. Thanks to driver selection and mounting location I honestly only eq down a smidge at 2k hz. I think this is more due 2k being the freq we are most sensitive to than anything. As Sean said don't plan on the eq being part of the install as it is there to dial in after install. Boost should only be used for a big dip in the FR.

Late TOP!

Is anyone an AES member subscribed to the E-Library?

Or if your a student at a college, I can look up and see if you have "free" access to it.

I don't want to pay $20 on a white paper (Creating Source Elevation Illusions by Spectral Manipulation).

I checked for you and my university doesn't have a subscription . Sorry Stefan.

Even with a membership you have to pay for the docs. Didn't realize that is what you were looking for Stefan. At my old company I could have gotten them for you.

From what I read, aes membership + $5 gets paper. Or $20 without membership. But a membership + subscription to e-library is free access to articles.

Im too cheap to spend the twenty bucks. Right now at least.

Way cheaper than it used to be, wow!

I don't get any reflections with this setup. Thanks to driver selection and mounting location I honestly only eq down a smidge at 2k hz. I think this is more due 2k being the freq we are most sensitive to than anything. As Sean said don't plan on the eq being part of the install as it is there to dial in after install. Boost should only be used for a big dip in the FR.

You get reflections

I don't get any reflections with this setup. Thanks to driver selection and mounting location I honestly only eq down a smidge at 2k hz. I think this is more due 2k being the freq we are most sensitive to than anything. As Sean said don't plan on the eq being part of the install as it is there to dial in after install. Boost should only be used for a big dip in the FR.

You get reflections

Not audible at my ref level.

Okay I fucked around this entire afternoon til now, with positions. Going to try the a-pillars a shot, and make simple baffles with clay for support in the kicks, and try going back and forth. I'll find out soon enough what I like and don't like.

LOLOLOL

Fuckin Mondays..............Such a shitty day.

J

I don't get any reflections with this setup. Thanks to driver selection and mounting location I honestly only eq down a smidge at 2k hz. I think this is more due 2k being the freq we are most sensitive to than anything. As Sean said don't plan on the eq being part of the install as it is there to dial in after install. Boost should only be used for a big dip in the FR.

You get reflections

Not audible at my ref level.

Err, then you are seriously a god of EQ. Of course reflections don't have a "sound" but interfere. Pretty hard to "hear" them at any level, just their effect.

Okay I fucked around this entire afternoon til now, with positions. Going to try the a-pillars a shot, and make simple baffles with clay for support in the kicks, and try going back and forth. I'll find out soon enough what I like and don't like.

Did you try phasing, eq, t/a and everything in those positions as well.

Every variable should be accounted for. Of course, the fastest way to account for some is to say fuck it I'm compromising on that.

Okay I fucked around this entire afternoon til now, with positions. Going to try the a-pillars a shot, and make simple baffles with clay for support in the kicks, and try going back and forth. I'll find out soon enough what I like and don't like.

Did you try phasing, eq, t/a and everything in those positions as well.

Every variable should be accounted for. Of course, the fastest way to account for some is to say fuck it I'm compromising on that.

It doesn't allow for manual control over anything, aside from the EQ, and initial crossover settings. The "autotune" does t/a and some sort of eqing with it's algorithm.

I will admit, I didn't think of switching phase during the different combinations. I'm not in a rush--for a few more days. I'll try playing with the phase tomorrow & what I originally tested.

I don't get any reflections with this setup. Thanks to driver selection and mounting location I honestly only eq down a smidge at 2k hz. I think this is more due 2k being the freq we are most sensitive to than anything. As Sean said don't plan on the eq being part of the install as it is there to dial in after install. Boost should only be used for a big dip in the FR.

You get reflections

Not audible at my ref level.

Err, then you are seriously a god of EQ. Of course reflections don't have a "sound" but interfere. Pretty hard to "hear" them at any level, just their effect.

I believe he means it sounds good to him and he can't tell.