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Here we go again. IT's funny as you made the blanket statement about the Axis. Now you've been proven wrong and want to spin stuff. Nobody said enlosure dictates everything, IT is by far the largest contribution to the performance of the driver aside from the driver itself. IT's also funny as you state, "I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people," yet you misinform them with your OPINION, and you even state it as your OPINION. It can be measured as fact and not opinion. You're wrong, you made a mistake, worded what your meant to say incorrectly, or just had a brain fart. We all know the enclosure does not dictate everything, but you OPINION that you can change it will no ill effects is just wrong.

Easier way, never log back on.

the one that is a vendor. has a vendor slot for his own company... thats not off the ground yet.. hes not selling anthing.. and the other memeber is just that a memeber that is part of the tech team.. BECAUSE HES SMART. hes not paid by SSa. fool. you know what im glad your done here.. because i think were done having you here.. your a fucking moron. and you seem to think you know plenty.. but you know shit. move around. go back to SMD where you came from. buh bye.

The glue is $30 not $10... Just cause i have money doesn't mean I want to waste it... Is there ANYthing you DO like here? Like wtf, you've been here for a few days and all I've seen is bitching and moaning. If you don't want it, then don't buy it. There are other cheaper alternatives that you are free to explore for yourself. But we don't need this kind of attitude in this atmosphere. 90% of the products associated with this site are pretty top of the line, more so than any where else on the web. Stop wasting space on this board if what you find here does not meet your high standards for cheap prices. So far you have proven that you like drama, you don't like the prices, you don't want help or want to learn. Nobody here is going to continue to feed into your baby back bitching and moaning for too much longer if you contine this kind of reputation.

You make me sad.

lol

its not cheap glue, even if you buy epoxy and amazing goop for a recone you will still spend more then 10 bucks,

Fair warning, watch on low volume, shitty phone camera lol.

DAMNIT SENCHEEZY

Nice mixture of late night protein, Jack Daniels and emails.

Cheezy, no more videos until you get a better camera lol.

check out my build log may help you

If something is a myth, doesn't that mean it's not true.....which is what you said? T/S change with coil position and heat due to changes in Bl, Cms and Re. I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform substantially better in this arena....They both use overhung motors, aluminum coils and shorting rings. But the Xcon has much higher rated Xmax, actually twice as much, which means it's Bl is more than likely going to be just as much if not more linear at any level of excursion, becoming more linear compared to the Axis as we move closer to the Xmax of the Axis and much more linear as we exceed it. So I don't see any reason to expect the Xcon to experience more of a variance in Bl vs excursion than the Axis and a couple reasons to believe it would actually be more linear especially if we push to the 15mm+ excursion range. In regards to Cms, with the linear suspension design of the Axis Cms might measure more linear than the Xcon's progressive but many argue (such as Vance Dickason in the LSDC) a progressive spider is better suited for loudspeakers intended to be used in a ported enclosure than linear designs. Power compression...the Xcon has higher rated Rms power handling, again almost twice as much which would lead me to believe at any power level the Xcon is going to be experiencing less power compression and more linear Re vs Power, leading to less parameter shift vs input power. Overall, I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform significantly better than the Xcon in parameter shift vs input power and/or parameter shift vs coil position, and a couple reasons to expect the Xcon to actually perform better in this regard. So yet again, I fail to see any logic that supports your original statement where you guaranteed the Axis to "dig lower" than the Xcon, including your new found argument about large vs small signal performance. And yes, there is a variance in T/S unit-to-unit due to production differences. But when was the last time you purchased two of the exact same units and experienced an audible difference in performance due to production variance related differences in T/S? The point is, in any driver with reasonably good soft parts and a reasonable QC program in place, the differences are going to be inaudible.

There is great debate on using small signal parameters for heavy damped, high xmax subwoofers, and for obvious reasons once the differences are show. For example my Ethos sample has a Fo of about 38 hertz and a vas of about 14 liters @ 2.83 volts. With this small signal the cone moves less than 1 mm. Now at 40 volts, within it's normal working range, it has a Fo of about 28 hertz and a vas of about 21 liters. Given this info we can conclude that if we were going to build an enclosure with a particular response using small signal parameters it's not going to perform as intended in the real world under normal stroke. Both Klippel and Vance Dickason recommends modeling using large signal parameters. Every driver that Vance tests and simulates he does so using 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 20, and 25 volts. You can clearly see the differences in spl vs Freq and Excursion vs Freq from small to large signal shown in his graphs. Progressive spiders do play an audible roll but I highly doubt the untrained ear would be able to tell the difference. And most would say it creates a more desirable warmer sound. Most engineers will use a spider with a slightly higher creep factor to control cone movement in ported alignments. However most companies' drivers you see are not progressive. Just because their spiders have smaller ridges by the former than the spider landing does not make it progressive. I use a progressive spider that has a sharp "v" ridge towards the outside of the spider that is a "breaking mechanism" for lack of a better term at the spiders xmax (50% cms is considered 20% distortion caused by the suspension including the edge).

Are you trying to argue with yourself? Both of you completely failed to understand what I said in my original post. No we're off in BFE on a lost mission. It's like dealing with liberals in here. WinSD won't tell you how a sub will sound. It can't. That plot graph will change once the different spiders start doing what they're supposed to do. The compliance off the surrounds etc... So what you're failing to understand is, Just because WinSD said so, doesn't make it so. Just because these two subs can model somewhat similar doesn't mean they'll sound similar.... Is that such a hard concept to understand? It's amazing you think different spiders have no effect on performance lol.

Really? The small signal params are still enough for enclosure modeling. The change will not be "great" enough to affect enclosure design for anything other than extreme SPL use. Again, Really? "A heavier glue joint, slight imperfection in the spiders." Not detectable by ear, MAYBE measureable by precise measuring equipment. Not enough to affect anything. We're not talking about modeling an enclosure. You're just arguing, to argue. Please tell me how a progressive spider and linear spider setup won't change performance of a particular driver... Having played with both, they do play a very audible role.

I'm not spinning anything, nor did I say an improper enclosure will have no ill effects. I didn't say you can put a 12" xcon in 7 cubes and throw 17,000 watts on it. I said an enclosure does not dictate everything. I know you can build an enclosure to play lower and maintain proper cone control while throwing more power at it. I just get sick of statements like "OMG this sub hammers the lows" My main point is, just because you're playing low, doesn't mean it's being done right.

I couldn't resist. WIsh I could somehow make the surround red.

I'm about to install 2 ufo btls. I've seen them do some work

Fi>DC all day everyday. I loved my ufo subs.

If something is a myth, doesn't that mean it's not true.....which is what you said? T/S change with coil position and heat due to changes in Bl, Cms and Re. I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform substantially better in this arena....They both use overhung motors, aluminum coils and shorting rings. But the Xcon has much higher rated Xmax, actually twice as much, which means it's Bl is more than likely going to be just as much if not more linear at any level of excursion, becoming more linear compared to the Axis as we move closer to the Xmax of the Axis and much more linear as we exceed it. So I don't see any reason to expect the Xcon to experience more of a variance in Bl vs excursion than the Axis and a couple reasons to believe it would actually be more linear especially if we push to the 15mm+ excursion range. In regards to Cms, with the linear suspension design of the Axis Cms might measure more linear than the Xcon's progressive but many argue (such as Vance Dickason in the LSDC) a progressive spider is better suited for loudspeakers intended to be used in a ported enclosure than linear designs. Power compression...the Xcon has higher rated Rms power handling, again almost twice as much which would lead me to believe at any power level the Xcon is going to be experiencing less power compression and more linear Re vs Power, leading to less parameter shift vs input power. Overall, I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform significantly better than the Xcon in parameter shift vs input power and/or parameter shift vs coil position, and a couple reasons to expect the Xcon to actually perform better in this regard. So yet again, I fail to see any logic that supports your original statement where you guaranteed the Axis to "dig lower" than the Xcon, including your new found argument about large vs small signal performance. And yes, there is a variance in T/S unit-to-unit due to production differences. But when was the last time you purchased two of the exact same units and experienced an audible difference in performance due to production variance related differences in T/S? The point is, in any driver with reasonably good soft parts and a reasonable QC program in place, the differences are going to be inaudible. The specs you looked at are wrong. You must be looking at the specs on PE, which show the axis measured xmax by 100% method, not 70% method. Xcon 15 31mm, axis 34mm Had you looked up the proper specs, most of this could have been avoided. I never said myth. I said that enclosures don't dictate everything. http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/axis-driver/

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail.

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE.

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET? yes i was yelling, mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

SP4 SQ subFS 24.7 This thing goes low. Deep bass! Spl: 87.8dB 1W/1m 3000w RMS this woofer has lots of power but its not efficient so it wouldn't get nearly as loud as the other woofers listed above so.. I didn't list it as a part of the list. I would compare it to a evil, xxx and other subs like that.

If given only a fs of a subwoofer, I'm pretty sure you can't tell the sound of it. Kinda the same thing with the efficiency. Just because it has a higher efficiency doesn't mean it'll play louder. I hope someone will jump in here to explain that. That is what I think though. There are many knowledgable people on this forum. Like I said before, if you make a well thought out thread and provide as much info as you can. These people will be more than happy to help.

Before cabin gain 90db@1w= 90db 90db@2w= 93db 90db@4w= 96db 90db@8w= 99db 90db@16w= 102db 90db@32w=105db 90db@64w= 108db 90db@128w= 111db 90db@256w= 114 90db@500w= 117 90db@1000w= 120 90db@2000w= 123 90db@4000w= 126 Each time you double your power you will gain approx 3db. And each time you double the amount of subwoofers you will gain approx 3db. And FS gives you a great idea of how the sub will preform low FS= deep punchy subwoofers and higher freq= louder and less punchy. By that logic all you have to do is add/remove mass to the dustcup to adjust Fs, run lots of power, and you'll end up with super duper loud low bass!

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. Absolutely one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension.

You're not listening to what they're saying.

This is true.If you smoke crack. So many holes in this, I don'y even know where to start filling in. Here's the problem with the internet.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters. That's been proven. Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver. They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application. There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself. Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters. That's been proven. Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver. They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application. There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself. Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race. Its a lot easier to win a race with a race car then it is with a horse and buggy.... I never mentioned enclosures...why would you assume that these high end subwoofers im discussing wouldn't be installed in a properly built box thats tuned for the woofer?? I'm done posting on this topic but I will continue to read it... You can't NOT mention an enclosure. You also have to remember each application is different, each environment is different. Herein lie the issues. Surely I could concoct a race where the horse and buggy have an advantage over the "race car." Again, you are not grasping what we're trying to teach. Don't get mad and run away because you were wrong. Read, understand, and learn. Just be careful as there is a lot of misinformation on the web, including within this thread. You'll be happier, smarter, and perhaps can then entrust your knowledge to others who will one day find themselves in your current shoes.

Thank god. Your actual understanding of everything you have posted about in this topic is close to zero. This is by far one of the most misinformation filled threads on this forum. If one wanted to go back and correct all of the misinformation you would basically just need to rewrite the entire thread. And I don't have the time for that. Instead let's for now warn anyone reading this thread to simply forget they ever read it. I'm tempted to simply close it.

This is true.If you smoke crack. So many holes in this, I don'y even know where to start filling in. Here's the problem with the internet. Please inform the ignorant grand wizard.

I don't know what to say. Anything else would be beating a dead horse. OP, please, for heavens sake, don't judge a driver soley by its t/s. Those t/s are again, only at 1 watt, obviously, do you not understand how many things are effected in real world, past 1 watt? For starters, just about every single soft part changes its property values after 1 watt. And thats just the driver itself, not to include the environmental influences. I would most adhere to the members who have been here for a while, who are actually trying to help. I would simply advise to just take in what some of us are trying to say. It may be difficult to seperate the bad information from the good. But continue to stick around, and further your own research to come to your own conclusion. But where you previously stand, as of now, if BAD information. Also, you've yet to list any details about what kind of environment these drivers would be going in, what kind of power, vehicle, intentions, nothing at all. We can't help you properly without any of this information.

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail. The system response of a loudspeaker in a given enclosure has been verified by over half a century of research. Certainly peak output is going to be affected by things such as power compression which can't be compensated for in an enclosure modeling software, but the shape of the response between predicted and real world (anechoic, not in-vehicle) is going to be consistent so long as the T/S are accurate and the proper conditions are maintained between model and measurement. Which is a long way of saying you were wrong in your Xcon vs Axis comment, and no amount of exclamation point use or sarcasm is going to change that. Also wrong in your comment that the "enclosure dictating everything is a myth", as there is a hell of a lot that the enclosure does dictate. Look at the mathematical models of any system response and you'll see just how much affect the enclosure has. If you would like to disprove Thiele-Small and rewrite the complete mathematical description of loudspeaker performance, then by all means go ahead and submit your paper to societies like the AES for peer review.

wow there's way too much information to go back on here like IMP said there is no way you can correct it all. i would take Sens suggestion and stick around for a while, maybe youll learn something.

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail. The system response of a loudspeaker in a given enclosure has been verified by over half a century of research. Certainly peak output is going to be affected by things such as power compression which can't be compensated for in an enclosure modeling software, but the shape of the response between predicted and real world (anechoic, not in-vehicle) is going to be consistent so long as the T/S are accurate and the proper conditions are maintained between model and measurement. Which is a long way of saying you were wrong in your Xcon vs Axis comment, and no amount of exclamation point use or sarcasm is going to change that. Also wrong in your comment that the "enclosure dictating everything is a myth", as there is a hell of a lot that the enclosure does dictate. Look at the mathematical models of any system response and you'll see just how much affect the enclosure has. If you would like to disprove Thiele-Small and rewrite the complete mathematical description of loudspeaker performance, then by all means go ahead and submit your paper to societies like the AES for peer review. Like I said 'everything'. Myth is a word you threw in there. I think I know that an enclosure dictates a whole hell of a lot. Once you apply power, more than one watt which is what most TSP's are based on, performance changes greatly. Xcon soft parts differ greatly from from the axis. Progressive spiders vs linear.... WinSD doesn't account for that. At least the version I have doesn't. Also keep in mind TSP's will vary due to the fact one sub might a have heavier glue joint, slight imperfection in the spiders. So the TSP's in WinSD only go so far...

Really? The small signal params are still enough for enclosure modeling. The change will not be "great" enough to affect enclosure design for anything other than extreme SPL use. Again, Really? "A heavier glue joint, slight imperfection in the spiders." Not detectable by ear, MAYBE measureable by precise measuring equipment. Not enough to affect anything.

What you're failing to comprehend is the parameters are used for enclosure modeling and response in said enclosure. Put the two together. What do you get? Is it sinking in yet? If your progressive versus linear spider argument had any vailidity, you would have to have a shapeshifting enclosure to account for the change in response due to the change in parameters.

4 SSA Evil 18s 2 Crescendo BC5500s 7 Shuriken 16v batteries 158+ sealed on the dash on music Stop trying to get your post count up. Sarcasm? I'm cereal bro.

Almost everyone who posted on my BTL VS ZCON VS MAYHEM topic were vendors and people who work for SSA... All you need to do is read their profiles to see that... They are trying spread misinformation to protect their product and make it sound better then it is. I would post pictures of all profiles but that would take a while... Here are a few examples...

But yes I'm done with this forum, It is filled with lots of idiots and misinformation..

If something is a myth, doesn't that mean it's not true.....which is what you said? T/S change with coil position and heat due to changes in Bl, Cms and Re. I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform substantially better in this arena....They both use overhung motors, aluminum coils and shorting rings. But the Xcon has much higher rated Xmax, actually twice as much, which means it's Bl is more than likely going to be just as much if not more linear at any level of excursion, becoming more linear compared to the Axis as we move closer to the Xmax of the Axis and much more linear as we exceed it. So I don't see any reason to expect the Xcon to experience more of a variance in Bl vs excursion than the Axis and a couple reasons to believe it would actually be more linear especially if we push to the 15mm+ excursion range. In regards to Cms, with the linear suspension design of the Axis Cms might measure more linear than the Xcon's progressive but many argue (such as Vance Dickason in the LSDC) a progressive spider is better suited for loudspeakers intended to be used in a ported enclosure than linear designs. Power compression...the Xcon has higher rated Rms power handling, again almost twice as much which would lead me to believe at any power level the Xcon is going to be experiencing less power compression and more linear Re vs Power, leading to less parameter shift vs input power. Overall, I don't see any reason to expect the Axis to perform significantly better than the Xcon in parameter shift vs input power and/or parameter shift vs coil position, and a couple reasons to expect the Xcon to actually perform better in this regard. So yet again, I fail to see any logic that supports your original statement where you guaranteed the Axis to "dig lower" than the Xcon, including your new found argument about large vs small signal performance. And yes, there is a variance in T/S unit-to-unit due to production differences. But when was the last time you purchased two of the exact same units and experienced an audible difference in performance due to production variance related differences in T/S? The point is, in any driver with reasonably good soft parts and a reasonable QC program in place, the differences are going to be inaudible. The specs you looked at are wrong. You must be looking at the specs on PE, which show the axis measured xmax by 100% method, not 70% method. Xcon 15 31mm, axis 34mm Had you looked up the proper specs, most of this could have been avoided. I never said myth. I said that enclosures don't dictate everything. http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/axis-driver/ Everything armykyle1 has said on here is 100% correct.

No there is nothing I like here, this site is filled with lots of vendors and product promoters who are trying to sell their products and make them sound better then they are. armykyle1 is the only member who Imhave met so far on here who knows what he is talking about...

No its not thats all one big lie! SSA wants you to believe they are the same company as FI Audio but the truth is that they are the same company as polk audio..

BTL for the win!!!