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sq_mgb last won the day on December 14 2011

sq_mgb had the most liked content!

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  1. Jacob's CES Schedule

    Hopefully I'll get to see ya there and put a face with the name! Good luck with your booth at CES!
  2. Installation Questions for new system

    Fuse by the battery is for safety in case the wire jacket ever gets compromised and comes into contact with bare metal. It is there to keep the car from going up in flames. If your Alpine amp has built in fuses you shouldn't need another fuse by the amp after the distro block, but the only thing it would hurt is it might drop your voltage at the amp by .1 or .2 volts or so. As far as fuses on the charging wire from alt to battery, I have heard arguments both ways for and against. All I will say is I have one on mine "just in case."
  3. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    That sounded pretty emotional to me..... As you want the last word, I will give it to you. I will no longer post on this or any other forum so you can be a big fish in a little pond. Goodbye all!
  4. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    You really don't get it do you. As that consumer did you listen to EVERY speaker before making a decision? Obviously I know the answer is no which means you have a very small sampling. Real measurements allow you to evaluate EVERY driver that you would like to for your application and know EXACTLY how it will perform in comparison to others. It is way faster to screen drivers up front and listen to just a few than the other way around which gets us to the point of listening to music faster. Really simple, not sure why you and your camp completely doesn't get it. You are correct....I did NOT listen to EVERY speaker out there. However, I get more than you realize. What YOU don't get is that EVERY consumer doesn't have access to the equimpent you do and even if they did, could they use it?? What you say, comes across to me as, "If I (M5) say it sounds good, then it does, and if someone doesn't agree with me, then they are WRONG!!!" I have spent more money and time than I ever needed to buying speakers that, for one reason or another, I don't like as much as what I have now. I listened to speakers in many different stores, in many different states JUST to be able to get as large a sample as I possibly could. It wasn't very cost effective, but it was the best I could do. I even purchased a driver that YOU used yourself. I noticed that you removed that driver a while back in favor of another. Since I don't have access to the equipment you use every day, what am I supposed to do? I'm sure there are many others like me that don't have access to that equipment either, and even if we did, could we use it and understand what we were looking at? I saw the phase angle and frequency response graphs of the drivers I own. I understood the frequency response graph enough to know that if I could minimize reflections and cancellations that I would have pretty good response in-vehicle. As for the phase angle graph, I had no idea what it meant, and I still don't. I could look at charts all day long and it wouldn't mean a darn thing to me and I would also guess that most CONSUMERS that are purchasing speakers don't either. (notice I didn't say ALL consumers) I'm all for education, but at some point, let's be realistic. If you have the education and ability to interpret charts and graphs, that's great! Those of us that can't, what are we left with? We are left with listening to the speakers at the local store, reading the reviews on the internet, and advice from others who have heard the products in which we are interested. That is why I read the forums. I read the opinions of people who have listened to the products I am interested in, and see what they thought of them. If they thought they sounded good, I searched them out and listened for myself and made my decision. Never once have I said that my speakers are the BEST, NOR have I told ANYONE that these are what they should purchase. I have only told people to use their own judgement and their own ears since most of us don't have equipment like you use to purchase them. I have tried to be as honest as I can be in this discussion. Obviously we don't exactly see eye to eye, but I can see value in what you say. What I get from your posts is that anything I say has NO VALUE, nor will it ever. If that's the case, then I will agree to disagree. If that's not the case, then I apologize for not being able to read properly. I see value in looking at specs and trying to make an informed decision, but if you don't understand the charts and graphs, it still comes down to....DOES IT SOUND GOOD TO ME (the consumer)? Good day!
  5. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    Use the stuff on a daily basis. As for the bold comment, perhaps you now realize why subjective comments aren't very helpful? Had to quote you... As my reading comprehension isn't very good as was evidenced when you had to translate for me, what does the sentence fragment highlighted above mean? Does it mean that you use it every day OR, that I am supposed to in order to be able to listen to music and enjoy it OR both? Remember, I am merely a consumer and would prefer to not have to drag many thousands of $$$ in computer equipment and software to a store to be able to choose my speakers. I only have the equipment I was born with (my ears) to be able to determine which products I want to purchase. I can't speak for anyone but myself on that, but I would venture a GUESS that MOST other people don't want to either. But I'm sure I'm way off base since I don't have an objective measurement for that either. The only objective measurement I have is in the last 30 years I have NEVER seen anyone drag a computer into the listening area, set it up, and then audition the different drivers and make a choice on what product they are going to spend their hard earned money based on what the computer told them sounded the best. They listened, and purchased what sounded best to THEM. Were they ALL WRONG??? I'm not saying that subjective is better than objective. I'm not saying that I or anyone else can hear better than a machine. I am merely saying that at some point, this is all about LISTENING TO MUSIC that makes us happy. At what point does this move away from that and become something else? Everyone on the planet is not a scientist or engineer, we are people. Some of us want to actually LISTEN to music. Isn't that what this is all about?
  6. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    LOL! I knew you would know. I do have a friend that works at the National Center for Physical Acoustics that could run all that for me and help me interpret the data, so that part's covered. As far as the development stuff goes, I have no need for any of that since I'm not designing anything. God knows I can't hear nearly as well as others on this or any other forum I read, so I have NO business trying to do that. I'll leave that up to the experts. Thanks for the info!
  7. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    Thank you for helping me with my reading comprehension as I'm sure I would not have taken what Brad said that way without your help. Thank you for setting me straight. Now would you be so kind as to tell me what computer and program I need to be able to accurately listen to my stereo? (It's just a joke Sean, don't get offended)
  8. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    Point taken, and I appreciate your and Sean's help very much in helping me attempt to figure out the WHY behind this crazy world of car audio!
  9. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you for helping me to understand (or at least trying to!). One of these days maybe I'll be able to remember half of the stuff you've tried to teach me!
  10. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    There's not enough information to accurately answer your questions. I can throw out a few possibilities, whether or not any of these are the actual cause I can not guaranty as again.....not enough information,and I am by far and away anything but an expert on acoustics to begin with. What we would really need to directly and accurately answer your question would be.....wait for it.....objective measurements (!) of the system both before and after. But since those aren't available....... First, we'll just air this one out right now.......psychoacoustics. And the typical response to this statement is "I know what I heard, the difference was there! Don't tell me I didn't hear it!" Well, really, without some type of measurement, you can't prove there was any difference. Again, the problem of subjective statements rears it's ugly head. My car system will sound slightly different on different days depending on my mood, what nuances I (subconsciously or consciously) focus on that day, etc. If you tell me your system sounds exactly the same every single day, I'd call you a liar. But, now that we have that out of the way, we can move on to some physical reasons of why you may have heard a change. I can not and will not argue the point of measuring the response of the drivers as it was not done. In hindsight, I should have pulled out my iPhone, turned on the rta and played some pink noise both before and after to see if there was any change, but I didn't so I guess that's a big FAIL for me. We were just comparing the different cabinets with the 5.25, the 6 and the 8 inch components by listening to musical selections we were very familiar with and thought that the midrange was a little less detailed on the 6 and 8 inch components and thought a change needed to be made. A change in either listening position or location of the speakers within the listening space will affect the frequency response, and hence can cause an audible change. You might think think the change was minor or unobservable in the space, but audio is a game where inches can make a difference in response shape as it will change the interference pattern of the speakers and their interaction with the room, among other things. This is something I had not considered. I cannot say that the speakers were placed in exactly the same spot because we moved them from one room, out to the install bay, and back into the room. Placement may or may not have been in exactly the same spot as before. That being said, I do know that minor changes in angle on tweeters as observed in my own vehicle made a world of difference in imaging so I assume it could do the same for frequency response. Adding/moving/relocating damping material within the enclosure would affect standing waves and reflections within the enclosure, which could be observed in frequency response. There was no damping material in the enclosure at the time so that would not have been it, but something I should have mentioned. Sorry to have left that out. I don't know how you accessed the port, but removing a panel/port/driver and resealing it might have caused a change in an air leak which was affecting a particular band of midrange frequencies. The port was external to the box so a cap could be placed over the port to convert it to a sealed enclosure and we simply cut off about an inch of the external portion of the port. Driver did not come out of the box, nor did the port, but great care was taken to ensure the enclosure was well sealed from air leaks. If you removed any speaker wire leads, you may have reconnected them in a different polarity (maybe they were incorrectly phased previously, and after reconnection were properly wired in relative phase). Wiring was put back in the same polarity as before, and something we had considered so we checked to make sure it was the same. There might have been a relative change in frequency response due to the change in tuning which made the midrange seem more pronounced even though it's actual frequency response was unaffected (although the response of the system as a whole changed). This is the kind of thing I want to learn more about. Is there a "layman's terms" way to explain this? From everything I've learned, the port will allow some midrange energy to escape though it. How much and how pronounced depends on a whole host of factors.....but this is supposedly one of the reasons why many home speakers have the port facing rearward, so that midrange energy that escapes interferes less with the direct wave radiating from the speaker. I suppose it might be possible that the tuning frequency and location of the port end in the enclosure or of the bandwidth of midrange frequencies affected/escaping might cause a noticeable difference in midrange depending on the host of factors which affect it (enclosure design, port location, damping material within the enclosure, etc etc). The port on these enclosures is on the back as well. Did not know that midrange frequencies would escape through a port, but that makes sense. A change in the tuning frequency would change the alignment of the speaker and it's excursion levels at various frequencies, which may have caused a slight change in how the driver behaved in the midrange frequencies (such as slightly affecting intermodulation distortion, etc). The tuning frequency only changed 2-4hz which is what confused me. I didn't think a change that small in tuning would affect anything that much higher up in the frequency range. My list is not comprehensive, and I can not promise that any single one of those are a contributing factor. It might be none of the above, or a combination of several. Some of them are kinda stretching the realm of audibility, threw them out there as options mainly to just list everything that popped into my head as I sat here typing. And that was just a list off the top of my head, some research into the issue and far more details about the setup may reveal many more possibilities I can't think of off hand or am unaware of. It may not be comprehensive, but it went a looooong way to helping me understand a bit more about how sound works. As always, you have explained something that confused the heck out of me in a way that I can understand. Thank you. But we'll never really know....since there aren't any objective measurements of the before and after to demonstrate what did or didn't change. What still confuses me is that this change was observed (rightly or wrongly) by multiple people's ears in different locations (buildings) and environments AND on different days, not just one. Also, to make it even more confusing to me, some of these people did not know that a change had been made to the enclosure, but a difference was heard by them as well. That's the part I'm having difficulty with in regards to the measurements thing. If I make a change in something, I know it was made and therefore will THINK I hear a difference. That part I agree with wholeheartedly. But when people listen multiple times a day to the same setup and then a change is made without telling them and they hear a difference, THAT's what I don't understand. Maybe it's psychoacoustics, but what if it isn't? Thanks again!
  11. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    The cabinet had a 6.5 and a tweet. The cabinet was tuned at 27hz to start, raising tuning to 29-31hz affected the midrange, I was curious as to how since both tunings were below midrange frequencies.
  12. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    I WOULD like you (M5 or Impious) to help me understand something that occured when we built the home cabinets. After a long listening session, we cut off some of the port which I understand raises tuning. Cutting off the port made the MIDRANGE more pronounced. In simple terms, why would that happen? I have been confused ever since I heard it and really would like to understand the why behind it. Is it because the tuning frequency is higher? The tuning frequencies were 27hz before and 29-31hz after I believe. I'm just trying to figure out why it would affect midrange frequencies when the tuning is way below what I would think of as midrange.
  13. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    I didn't miss it, I gave you what I know. I don't know what he changed, why he changed it, or what he heard that made him do it, I only know that's what he did. I'm sorry I can't be of any more help than that.
  14. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    I would love to be able to tell how the design process was done exactly, unfortunately, I was not a part of that process. All I know is that speakers were built, listened to, changed, listened to, over and over again until he got the sound he wanted. After he got that done, he worked on the crossover changing components over and over again until he got what he wanted. That was his design process to the best of my knowledge. As far as measurements go, I have NO IDEA what they are, nor do I have access to them, so I can't provide them. You asked me how he designed for dynamics, realism, and the live experience, he LISTENED to them and changed spiders, cones, surrounds, voice coils, and whatever other parts until he got the SOUND he wanted. Maybe specs were his starting point, maybe they weren't, I DON'T KNOW, I didn't design them. I am merely trying to answer the questions posed to the best of my ability. Hopefully that will go a short way to getting the answers you want, as unfortunately I am unable to speak any more scientifically than that.
  15. Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

    As one of the "Blues guys" I've been ridiculed, insulted, told I didn't know how poor my hearing was, told my "magic speakers" couldn't do what they do, the list goes on and on, by people who have not heard the new line of drivers. That's what the "Blues guys" are up in arms about. Basically, it seems to me, that this has turned into a case of "mine's bigger than yours" and it's not productive. So... I agree that certain specs can tell how a driver will work say in a free-air configuration (I believe it's a high qts driver plus I'm sure some other figures come into play). Impious, I recognize that you and M5 are very knowledgeable and therefore, I value your input. For those of us who do not have the technical background, please explain what specs demonstrate dynamics, realism, and that "I was there live" feeling one gets when listening to a musical passage, and I will do my dead level best to find out what those numbers are and report them here. As far as the application these drivers were designed for, they were designed to simply reproduce music as accurately as possible, AND as simply as possible. If you have a car and you want an easy to do setup, put the 6's in a door, the tweeter where it sounds best, hook up a good solid amp of 100-150 watts, and let it play. There's no need for 24 speakers, 24 amp channels, a computer to time align everything, and a degree in engineering to put it all together. These vehicles we built may or may not be the best sounding things on the planet, but I have yet to have anyone listen to my own vehicle that wasn't amazed at what they heard. Again, that is only other's opinions and don't count for a darn thing here. I have made over half a dozen trips to Kansas City over the past year in an effort to let Julian hear the truck, but he never showed up. I would love to demo it for him, but even he seems intent on agreeing with the ones who haven't heard them. I have tried to be helpful where I could, usually I get beat to the punch (post?) by people who are on here more often than me. I do not mislead anyone, nor do I try to say the products I use are the end-all-be-all of music reproduction. I like them and will continue to use them untill Ray, Steve and Jerry come up with something new. In an effort to "keep the peace," I propose insults on both sides cease and let's make this a thread we can all learn from. Help the "T/S challenged" people like me understand how the specs work, and how they can be used to understand speaker behavior. Sorry for the rant, I just felt this was going nowhere good and want to turn this thread into something we can learn from, and I'm not talking about an ultra-sized pissing contest.