Help choosing speakers for active front stage

[hondakilla98 29]

I have my front stage running active with my 9886, h100, and mrp-f250. I currently have Focal 165a1 speakers installed. 6.5" in the stock location in the bottom of the doors, and the tweeters in the dash reflecting off the windshield. I'm not happy with the sound currently. I'd like to find some mids with better midbass, less harsh tweeters, and put my tweeters on axis. I'm new to the world of buying seperate speakers. I looked on madisound and found the Vifa BC25TG15-04 and the Scanspeak Discovery 18W/4434G-00. What do you think of this combo? I'd leave the mids in the doors in the stock location, and make a pillar pods for the tweeters on axis with the driver's seat. I'll post pics later of speaker location. I only have about 70mm of mounting depth available for the doors and a max diameter of 7". I'll also soon be buying MLV and CCF, and dampening the doors. If you have reccomendations of speakers preferably 4 ohm and around 50 watts, with a max of 100. If if have to i can upgrade to a 100x4 amp (i only have room for one midrange amp).

[///M5 2,833]

You should deaden first, adjust your aiming, connect them active and then describe what you don't like so we can give specific recommendations. Less harsh than Focal is easy, I can hardly think of a tweeter that is more harsh More midbass is also easy. Deaden first, then cone area if possible. Again understanding your real limitations will help narrow this down.

[hondakilla98 29]

double reply

Edited April 19, 2010 by hondakilla98

[hondakilla98 29]

You should deaden first, adjust your aiming, connect them active and then describe what you don't like so we can give specific recommendations. Less harsh than Focal is easy, I can hardly think of a tweeter that is more harsh More midbass is also easy. Deaden first, then cone area if possible. Again understanding your real limitations will help narrow this down.

Deadening will happen soon. I'm waiting to get MLV and CCF before I tear apart my doors again. I'm already running active. I moved the tweeters to the A pillars with some 3m double sided tape temporarily as suggested. They are about chin level. It sounds better, but still very harsh. Espescially listeninng to hard rock and metal. Everything sounds muddy and run together with little definition. Just a bad sounding harsh jumble of high end(I might be exagerating a little). These remind me of the MB Quartz seperates I had back in '99, way to harsh.

pic from driver seat of passenger side

Driver's side tweeter location and aiming

Driver side woofer hiding behind my big ass white leg.

Edited April 19, 2010 by hondakilla98

[///M5 2,833]

Okay, now we are getting there. What are your current crossover settings? Any EQ applied and if so how much and where?

[///M5 2,833]

As an aside, get those things off axis more. Perhaps even shooting at each other. Focal's are WAY too bright to be aimed like that

[abmoore 8]

Just gave that advice to my friend when I saw that, he had his on-axis in the pillars too. We are in the midst of EQing but already sounds more pleasing to the ear.

[Nirvalica 0]

do you have any "enhancements" on your headunit enabled? that will mess up your sound.

[hondakilla98 29]

I haven't messed with the eq much yet. I just put it on one of the presets that wasn't too bad. The parametric is flat. My sub is 24 db@63hz Mid 24@80hz, 24@2khz, high 18@2khz. So on aiming. Is the height ok? Where should they be aiming? In between the front seats, middle of the dash, above the shifter? Should they aim up at my ears or down? And how far up or down? I have the mx turned off. Everything I listen to comes from my iPod. I have the eq off on the iPod.

Edited April 20, 2010 by hondakilla98

[abmoore 8]

I haven't messed with the eq much yet. I just put it on one of the presets that wasn't too bad. The parametric is flat. My sub is 24 db@63hz Mid 24@80hz, 24@2khz, high 18@2khz. So on aiming. Is the height ok? Where should they be aiming? In between the front seats, middle of the dash, above the shifter? Should they aim up at my ears or down? And how far up or down?

My friend angled his about 10 degrees forward and 10 degrees up from a direct crossfire. His seem to be a bit lower than your listening position. I guess you won't know until you try. That parametric EQ will help a ton with mounting problems, nothing is as good as getting the mounting correct I guess, but It seems to help me. What frequencies seem to be harsh? I don't know what the natural rolloff of the mid and tweeter are but they could be overlapping too much, that is purely a guess though, I would wait for some more advice on the crossover points.

[hondakilla98 29]

I haven't messed with the eq much yet. I just put it on one of the presets that wasn't too bad. The parametric is flat. My sub is 24 db@63hz Mid 24@80hz, 24@2khz, high 18@2khz. So on aiming. Is the height ok? Where should they be aiming? In between the front seats, middle of the dash, above the shifter? Should they aim up at my ears or down? And how far up or down?

My friend angled his about 10 degrees forward and 10 degrees up from a direct crossfire. His seem to be a bit lower than your listening position. I guess you won't know until you try. That parametric EQ will help a ton with mounting problems, nothing is as good as getting the mounting correct I guess, but It seems to help me. What frequencies seem to be harsh? I don't know what the natural rolloff of the mid and tweeter are but they could be overlapping too much, that is purely a guess though, I would wait for some more advice on the crossover points.

Wow. You weren't kidding about having them firing at each other. I'll try moving them. Should I put the eq flat before I spend anymore time on aiming? Then after I get them where they sound the best. Then play with the eq? And after I do that and repost, then I'll post up my complaints about the sound and get reccomendations from there?

[///M5 2,833]

I just put it on one of the presets that wasn't too bad. The parametric is flat. My sub is 24 db@63hz Mid 24@80hz, 24@2khz, high 18@2khz.

With those settings I would HIGHLY suspect that the passives that came with them will make them sound WAY better. If you truly want to make these work active, or any other drivers I hope you are willing to spend a couple hours a day for the next few weeks fiddling. If not, I'd suggest going back to passive.

So on aiming. Is the height ok? Where should they be aiming?

The height might be okay, did you try multiple different heights? If I were mounting them on my pillars I would experiment with nearly every placement possible. I'd expect this to take weeks also.

Generically speaking those tweeters are meant to be off axis. I'd start with them pointing at each other and work out from there. Shut off EVERYTHING else and just listen to the tweeters. Make sure you aren't stressing them, which by your crossover settings I'd bet you are as I doubt they can play as low as you ask.

[abmoore 8]

I would listen to him. As for EQing, be patient, it takes a lot of time sitting in your garage or driveway, I always save a preset I like, then keep changing, compare the ones I like, then develop a feel for what is right and wrong. After a good bit of time you will get something you are very happy with!

[ryan s 12]

I agree with Sean. I'm not sure about the specifics of those Focals, but most (generally speaking) "off the shelf" component sets have the tweeter crossed way higher. My MBQ passives were 5200Hz, for example. Try crossing higher, in the 4kHz range and see what happens.

Those Scans mids won't work too well in a door. Low Qts, low inductance, small Vas...I was looking at em earlier Small sealed or small vented, not "large sealed" like a car door. I have a pair of H Audio Ebonys on the way. Expensive, but shallow at ~2.7" deep and WILL play 63-4000Hz without question.

Edit: The Vifa tweeters are reportedly very nice.

Edited April 20, 2010 by ryan s

[hondakilla98 29]

I just put it on one of the presets that wasn't too bad. The parametric is flat. My sub is 24 db@63hz Mid 24@80hz, 24@2khz, high 18@2khz.

With those settings I would HIGHLY suspect that the passives that came with them will make them sound WAY better. If you truly want to make these work active, or any other drivers I hope you are willing to spend a couple hours a day for the next few weeks fiddling. If not, I'd suggest going back to passive.

So on aiming. Is the height ok? Where should they be aiming?

The height might be okay, did you try multiple different heights? If I were mounting them on my pillars I would experiment with nearly every placement possible. I'd expect this to take weeks also.

Generically speaking those tweeters are meant to be off axis. I'd start with them pointing at each other and work out from there. Shut off EVERYTHING else and just listen to the tweeters. Make sure you aren't stressing them, which by your crossover settings I'd bet you are as I doubt they can play as low as you ask.

Do you have any suggestions as to where i should have my crossover set? I've never had an active setup before and I'm still learning, and I couldn't find any info on what the passive crossover or the speakers to guess on settings. I originaly had them crossed at 4k, as i lowered the crossover it sounded better. Probably because my door speakers are aimed at my ankles and the tweeters are up high. It seemed like the more i lowered the crossover, the better it sounded. That's why I started looking for different speakers. I figured if I can get a speaker up in the pillars that plays well down to 1khz, and is less harsh, then everything should sound better. Is the time that i'll put into finding speaker placement with these tweeters going to be transferable to whatever I end up buying? Or am I just wasting time with these speakers?

I have only had them installed two ways, in the dash aimed off axis and partially reflecting off the windshield, and where they are now. I have the pillar covers of right now. Should I have those on while testing tweeter locations? Or will it matter?

I'll raise the crossover point to 5k, aim them off axis and go from there.

[ryan s 12]

You don't start having "directional" sound until about 2,000Hz. Lowering the XO point on the tweeters made everything sound better since it was taking over some frequencies blocked by your leg.

Have you tried mounting the tweeter near the mid? Use the stock passive just to start.

As for the A Pillar garnishes...I'd put them on while testing just to see what (if any) effects they cause.

[///M5 2,833]

Do you have any suggestions as to where i should have my crossover set? I've never had an active setup before and I'm still learning, and I couldn't find any info on what the passive crossover or the speakers to guess on settings. I originaly had them crossed at 4k, as i lowered the crossover it sounded better. Probably because my door speakers are aimed at my ankles and the tweeters are up high. It seemed like the more i lowered the crossover, the better it sounded. That's why I started looking for different speakers. I figured if I can get a speaker up in the pillars that plays well down to 1khz, and is less harsh, then everything should sound better. Is the time that i'll put into finding speaker placement with these tweeters going to be transferable to whatever I end up buying? Or am I just wasting time with these speakers?

I have only had them installed two ways, in the dash aimed off axis and partially reflecting off the windshield, and where they are now. I have the pillar covers of right now. Should I have those on while testing tweeter locations? Or will it matter?

I'll raise the crossover point to 5k, aim them off axis and go from there.

Yes, where they sound best.

Are you wasting time? No, because unless you dial these in and really let us know what you like/don't like about them in a good installation it won't be so easy to recommend anything better.

Active is NOT a simple, fast and easy process. Expect things to sound worse than your passive for weeks. There are too many knobs to turn and you need to turn them all.

To start:

Listen to the tweeters alone, play with aiming (for this 2.5k+ is fine, lower levels so you don't cause them to break up)

Listen to the tweeters alone, play with frequency response

Listen to the tweeters alone, play with phase

Listen to the mids alone, play with frequency response

Listen to the mids alone, play with phase

Report what you find. The next step will be some t/a and to integrate the two together, but we need some info before helping with that. (ie frequencies for both and phasing for both)

And really, expect this to take many hours not minutes. You have to take a lot of breaks as your ears will fatigue and you will learn and need time away from your car to understand what is happening.

Realize also once you deaden, everything could change. It may not, but it may...

[///M5 2,833]

Have you tried mounting the tweeter near the mid? Use the stock passive just to start.

If you aren't willing to spend hours tinkering that is by far your best solution.

[hondakilla98 29]

I kept the tweeters at the same height. But they are almost aimed at each other. I found a review of my speakers thy listed the crossover pint and slope as 12db@4.8khz. So as a starting point I put it to 12db@5khz. I turned the gain down on the tweets and it has also helped. When I have more time in the next few days I'll play with phase and crossover slopes. I set the ta with a tape measure already. Should I put it back to 0 untill I'm done tuning? Or leave it alone? I think I might work on deadening the doors and trying to seal them up as well as I can with sheetmetal. And worry about mlv and ccf later.

[hondakilla98 29]

I kept the tweeters at the same height. But they are almost aimed at each other. I found a review of my speakers thy listed the crossover pint and slope as 12db@4.8khz. So as a starting point I put it to 12db@5khz. I turned the gain down on the tweets and it has also helped. When I have more time in the next few days I'll play with phase and crossover slopes. I set the ta with a tape measure already. Should I put it back to 0 untill I'm done tuning? Or leave it alone? I think I might work on deadening the doors and trying to seal them up as well as I can with sheetmetal. And worry about mlv and ccf later.

[hondakilla98 29]

I've been trying to think of ways to fit a driver larger than 7". I think if I cut a hole in the door panel where the factory grill is and make an mdf spacer that goes from the door to the inside of the door panel. Then put an 8" grill on the outside of the door panel. That would give me a mounting depth of about 4.75" and the ability to run an 8" driver. And when I sell the jeep I can take out the mdf spacer. Put a cheap 6.5 in the door and just leave the 8" grill on the door panel. What do you think?

[ryan s 12]

To add to what to Sean said, in my opinion, tweak your setting once per day. Spend maybe 15-30 minutes on it.

OP, sounds like you're headed in the right direction. I leave T/A off when setting gains but I turn it on when messing with the EQ.

A tip someone else posted elsewhere is putting the sub's T/A at 0, then running the passenger side as far as the T/A will allow, then doing a proportion for the drivers side.

To be clearer:

"Stock T/A" numbers

Sub 70"

Driver's side 20"

Passenger 40"

Zero the sub

Sub 0"

Driver's side 80"

Passenger 160"

Note, the passenger side will be maxed out. I tried it and was skeptical, although it seems to put the width of the sound out further with more delay on the speakers and none on the sub. Give it a shot...it's free! Also free to go back to where you started

Almost forgot...it's up to you about cutting door panels. I won't do it since I like a low key look. You can compromise the look of the door, or compromise on your low end response up front. "Compromise" being the key word

[hondakilla98 29]

To add to what to Sean said, in my opinion, tweak your setting once per day. Spend maybe 15-30 minutes on it.

OP, sounds like you're headed in the right direction. I leave T/A off when setting gains but I turn it on when messing with the EQ.

A tip someone else posted elsewhere is putting the sub's T/A at 0, then running the passenger side as far as the T/A will allow, then doing a proportion for the drivers side.

To be clearer:

"Stock T/A" numbers

Sub 70"

Driver's side 20"

Passenger 40"

Zero the sub

Sub 0"

Driver's side 80"

Passenger 160"

Note, the passenger side will be maxed out. I tried it and was skeptical, although it seems to put the width of the sound out further with more delay on the speakers and none on the sub. Give it a shot...it's free! Also free to go back to where you started

Almost forgot...it's up to you about cutting door panels. I won't do it since I like a low key look. You can compromise the look of the door, or compromise on your low end response up front. "Compromise" being the key word

I'll try that with the ta, like you said it's free.

As far as the door panels go. It's a pretty cheap vehicle, I live in a good neighborhood and i can keep an eye on my car at work. So Low key isn't an issue. Especially since I have a 4 cu ft sub box in the back that isn't covered. My main concern was being able to put it back to stock when I sell the jeep. And I don't think a set of grills on the bottom of the door panels is going to detract from the resale very much. But mainly It sounds like a relatively cheap, and easy way for me to increase my midbass.

[ryan s 12]

Box isn't even covered...there you go Worse comes to worst, you could probably find some panels at a junk yard. And...your vehicle is already 12 years old like mine so it's not a lightly-used car anymore

Good luck! Keep everyone updated

[hondakilla98 29]

What do you guys use for music to tune with? The same song over and over, a couple of my favorite songs, or just put it on random? Music source? Cd or iPod? Tuning cd's of some sort?