Gear Replacement Recs

[idiot 7]

I've been out of the game for a while, and I'm hoping for some good recommendations. I installed my system about 6 years ago and haven't really upgraded it since them. Then some guy decided it would be fun to break my rear window and steal my subwoofer and amps. Gone is my Soundsplinter RL-p15 and some old school PPI amps. Not to mention my custom-molded fiberglassed enclosure and amp rack. Sigh.

So like I said, I've been out of the game for a while, and I preemptively apologize for the newbie question. But I'm hoping that someone can toss out a quickie listing of the internet-favorite subs right now so I can focus my research a bit. I'll probably downgrade to a 12" sub since I was never using the full potential of my 15". But I definitely want something with authority from the 60-70Hz range and down, as I cross my mids fairly low. Enclosure will probably be sealed again, but that is not for certain. Sub is in a hatchback, not a trunk.

Source: Rockford/Denon RFX-8250

Mids: Usher 8945P 7"

Tweets: Peerless 810921 HDS 1" dome

Fortunately, the above equipment was left alone, but that gives you an idea of the gear I'll be pairing up with the replacement parts. Amps are TBD and any recommendation on that front are more than welcome. But subs are my agenda today. Still crossing my fingers that insurance will give me some kind of return for the stolen property, but I'm hoping to stay under $350 for the driver regardless. So... what's everyone in love with these days?

[johnecon2001 82]

Sounds like you're more interested in a SQ system (judging by your equipment choices).

$350 is more than enough for most of the drivers out there.

How much space are you working with for an enclosure?

[idiot 7]

Yep, definitely SQ-oriented. I never really used the full SPL capacity of my 15", so I'm hoping that a long-throw 12" will let me reduce box volume while maintaining similar output levels and low-end extension.

I had a 3 ft.^3 enclosure before, so nothing larger than that. Size is one reason I'll probably stick with sealed. I can has cargo space.

[Impious 1,476]

Nice deck. Had the 8240 for a while myself.

Anyways, I love my Exodus Shiva-X. Based on the Brahma motor, good throw, lowish Le, sounds fantastic. I run mine IB but should do well sealed as well.

DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »

[idiot 7]

No fancy crossovers or signal manipulation, but the 8250 is one of the finest head units I've owned. Glad it's still around. Has an aux-in for my Zune, which is all I need.

Ahh, glad to see that Adire is still around in some capacity. The Shiva was a lower line than the Brahma back in the day, but it sounds like they're more comparable now? Any other XBL^2 drivers out there anymore?

On the subject of motor designs, last time I was around it was looking like TC Sounds was going all-in on the LMT tech. Now I'm seeing something called FEA on their drivers? Is that just some fancy name for traditional split coil or what? Anyone have a handy link giving me some kind of comparison with the other topologies?

[Impious 1,476]

Yeah, the Shiva-X is a revival in name only, a major improvement over the original Shiva design (being that the Shiva-X is based on the Brahma motor). I believe he chose the name "Shiva" because it was synonymous with good performance at a reasonable price, which is what the Exodus drivers offer. The Shiva-X I believe has a little better motor than the Brahma, slightly less stroke but includes shorting rings.

There are a couple other XBL 12" drivers on the market. Off the top of my head; SI BM mkIII, CSS Trio12. Seems like there may be one or two more, but I'm drawing a blank (and frankly, could be wrong). CSS makes a 10" and 15" XBL driver in a different line (SDX series), and looks like this winter will be releasing a 12" version in that series.

TC is still doing LMT. Drivers are available through Parts Express.

I'm not sure where you saw the FEA thing, but generally FEA = Finite Element Analysis. It's not a motor design, it's a modeling/analysis program used to design motors. Everybody uses FEA to model their motors anymore, so it's sort of a moot point.

For a comparison of the linear motor technologies, Neil did a good write-up on this site; An Unbiased Comparison of Linear BL Technologies - SSA Car Audio Forum

[idiot 7]

Awesome feedback, thanks!

That Shiva-X2 is looking like a mighty fine option. I'm also curious about the Fi Q12 and TC's LMS-R 12", although I haven't found much in the way of direct reviews/comparisons yet. And it also looks like there was some drama with TC Sounds going bankrupt for a while, and so I'm a bit confused if this is even the same company with a catalog full of Thilo's designs or just something else pieced together from the ashes that managed to keep the name. I've missed so much!

The SI driver is interesting, but looks to be unavailable for now.

Anything else you think should make my short list apart from those three above?

Edited July 8, 2010 by idiot

[Impious 1,476]

I've not used the Q or LMS-R, really I haven't heard anything about the LMS-R. The Q seems to be well liked by most as a good sounding driver with good output capabilities. It's a standard overhung driver. I know some SQ guys were using them, and Scott Buwalda had a custom Q built that he had intended to use in his car.

Other drivers within your budget I would consider are the AE AV12, SSA Icon, JBL W12Gti, JL 12w6v2 (may be within your budget). The IA Flatlyne has had some good reviews as well, it's an underhung driver. There are some other options as well, depending on how strong you want/need the output to be. They don't have quite the excursion of the drivers I've listed, but are also less expensive.

As for TC, Thilo bought back some of his patents at the bankruptcy liquidation sale and is back to producing drivers under the TC name.

[idiot 7]

Hmm, might back off the LMS-R then until it gets vetted by more users. And I'll definitely take all those drivers under consideration, thanks! Although I admit that I'm starting to itch for a Shiva with a PR if I can swing the box design and volume. We'll see--never built one of those before.

For a front amp, I'm really intrigued by--and this surprised the hell outta me--the old Kenwood X4R. My Denford is barebones in terms of processing, so having a parametric EQ and TA onboard the amp is a strong draw. However, running components on a Class D used to be frowned upon, so that's probably my biggest hesitation. Not sure it's a valid concern these days. Otherwise they seem to be a cheap version of Zapco DCs, which is always welcome. Any thoughts? Any similar amps with some DSP capabilities out there?

[Impious 1,476]

Class D aren't an issue anymore. A couple decades ago when the designs were poor they posed a bit of a problem, but that's been solved for a while now. No difference in sound between a class A/B and a class D.

I've heard good things about the Kenwoods, not used one myself. The DSP appears decent...doesn't appear as detailed as some outboard processors or the Zapco DC's, but definitely an improvement over having none and the features are definitely useful. They are a little less powerful output wise than I prefer to use.

What's your budget for amps/processing?

[idiot 7]

I thought the Class D thing was just a myth, but I wasn't sure.

For the fronts, I'd be running an active setup, so I need 4 channels and some decent crossover options. My tweets play down to ~1.5k, the woofers take over to about 60-70Hz, and the sub gets the rest.

Honestly, amps are the area in which I normally cut the most cost for some reason. I normally get them used/refurbished and have never spent more than $250 for one in my life. They're not visible in my install, so I guess appearance is irrelevent. Budgetwise, I'd definitely need to stay below $600 for the two amps and whatever processing. At this moment I'm thinking of the Kenwood X4R and X1R, but I'm obviously wide open.

Edit: Actually, if I go with the Shiva, looks like I might want a sub amp that's stable at 1 ohm, which crosses out the X1R. But if all the DSP can be done on the X4R, then I guess I can grab pretty much any dumb monoblock with a subsonic to run it.

Edited July 10, 2010 by idiot

[Impious 1,476]

Yeah, for that budget you would probably need to look at all-in-one amp and processing. You could grab a used H701 for $300 or so, but that might press your amplifier budget a little too tight. Though if you poke your head around, there's usually some good amplifier deals to be found. Db-r has a b-stock Sundown SAE-1200D for $160. That'd give you 1200w @ 1ohm for $160+shipping. Hard to beat that.

http://www.db-r.com/sell/store2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65_67_69_82&products_id=236

[idiot 7]

So after going back and forth with my insurance company over the equipment replacements for what was stolen, I managed to squeeze the following amps out of them:

Kenwood XR4S (120W x 4)

Kenwood XR1S (need to find out if this is 1ohm stable... the manual says 2ohms minimum, but the specs page online lists 1000W x 1 @ 1ohm)

Plus some other stuff, but those are the ones I'll probably be installing. They're supposed to be decent amps with a small footprint and reasonable power, so I see no pressing need to sell them and buy new ones. What these amps lack, however, is DSP. So I'm considering getting a 3sixty.2 and adding that to the chain for xover, TA, and EQ duty.

Thoughts on the Rockford unit versus something like the Audison bitone or JBL MS-8? Looks like the Rockford can be had for $3-400 while the others are more expensive, so I'm wondering about the relative quality.

If I went this route, I'd probably want to get some kind of microphone and tune with software like RoomEQWizard. I've never done that before, so any suggestions or unforeseen hurdles there?

They also tried to replace my RL-p15 with a Kicker CompVR. After I stopped laughing, I managed to convince them to cut me a check which I'll be using on a Shiva. Hopefully that amp is 1ohm stable, or else I'll either have to get another or see if I can get the Shiva with dual 4ohm coils.

Glad to have this drama (almost) over so I can start building the new box.

[Impious 1,476]

IMHO right now the MS-8 is a no-brainer unless you are budget-limited and/or are simply unwilling to use an auto-tune. You could probably forget about needing a microphone and RoomEQ as the MS-8 handles all of that internally and does the adjustments for you in what has been reported as a more effective and better sounding manor than any other car audio processor on the market and better than most have been able to manage with a measurement setup and months of manual tuning. Many people have exchanged their BitOne for an MS-8 with no regrets. The downside of the MS-8 is that it has no digital input, the BitOne does. But the MS-8 has balanced differential inputs (I believe) so it should still be silent. This probably sounds like a sales pitch for the MS-8, but from all reports it can do in 5 minutes equal to or better than experienced and knowledgeable users can manage in weeks or months of manual tuning, and the BitOne and 360.2 would both require manual tuning. The fellas at JBL are very smart cookies to boot, so I believe the hype. The release of the unit actually sort of sucks for me as the resale value of H701's are probably going to take a large hit as a result.....it feels sort of like the real estate crash all over again

However, if you really want a measurement setup just to play with or decide to go a route other than the MS-8, there are a couple of things to consider. First, to have an accurate setup you would need to purchase a calibrated mic or have your mic calibrated. Uncalibrated mics are still useful for comparisons, but for absolute measurements calibration would need done. Second the quality of the mic preamp/etc will affect the measurements. Frequency response anomalies in the measurement electronics will affect the resultant measurements. If you want to go with a full MLS setup that measures things such impulse response as well, then you need to make sure that the signal input/output you are using have a constant timing.....I don't know the actual terminology for this, but when transmitting and recording some preamps/soundcards will have varying time delays which makes the measurements useless.

You will also want to read up on and learn about audio measurements if you don't already have a solid understanding. Extracting truly meaningful data really is not as simple as sticking a mic in the car and turning on the system. Even the basics of gating the measurements, different measurement techniques, different types of measurements, so on and so forth, can create large differences in the meaningfulness or comparability of data and ultimately the necessary system adjustments and resultant sound. This is why I think the MS-8 is a no-brainer.....it takes all of this work out of the hands of the end-user and does it all internally in about 5 minutes. I've spent hours reading about system measurements and have only a very basic understanding of the differences, various considerations and ideologies, etc.

I myself have a M-Audio MobilePre microphone preamp and (uncalibrated) Dayton Mic. I also have HOLMimpulse downloaded, but have yet to make the time to actually try to take any meaningful measurements with the system.

[idiot 7]

Awesome post, thanks!

I wish I'd seen it before I dropped a few hundred on a 3sixty.2, although the significant price difference between the RF unit and the MS-8 may have made my decision regardless... the JBL sounds like an incredible piece by all indications, but it would be a bit beyond my budget. Same with the BitOne, although that looks to be outclassed in its price range by the MS-8.

I suppose I'll be doing manual tuning then, which seems like a steeper mountain to climb than I expected. The TA and crossovers should be simple enough, I hope, even if absolute frequency response plots require a little more equipment and knowledge to generate. No doubt it will be a gradual process. So to clarify, I'll need: (1) a mic, (2) preamp with USB connection, (3) time. A quick search shows that's about a $70 investment in equipment, so I may hold off on it for the immediate future unless I can find my old (and presumably lost) Behringer mic that I purchased years ago and never actually used... are there any online resources you've found particularly useful?

FYI, I switched the sub to a W12GTi and started building the box/rack yesterday.

[Impious 1,476]

Excellent choice on subwoofer. The Gti units are solid performers. If they weren't so deep I'd probably be running one myself.

As for measurements, sounds like you have the jist of things for EQ. If you want to do MLS measurements you'll need a preamp source as well.....the sound card in your computer might work if the response is reasonably flat and it has fixed timing. But for just EQ all you need is the mic and preamp.

The forums on DIYMA have had a lot of good discussions and information on measuring the system. I'd suggest some searching over there when the time comes to get down to business.

[idiot 7]

The depth on those subs is crazy. I'm building into the spare tire compartment beneath the floor of my wagon, so the box shouldn't be too obtrusive. Hopefully. I wish I could flush-mount it with my floorboard, but that's not possible given the 10+" mounting depth. Oh, the sacrifices we make for beautiful speakers...

The universe has smiled on me, and I found my Behringer ECM8000 today. I'll try and grab one of those M-audio preamps off ebay, hopefully for less than $60.

And thanks for the DIYMA recommendation--it's an encyclopedia of a forum over there! I'll search around for relevant discussions after I get everything all set up.