Stupid Question

[altoncustomtech 773]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

[Sencheezy 689]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

[///M5 2,833]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

[Sencheezy 689]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

Haha, alright M5, I get your point lol. Stupid morons. Then thats jus dum, their jus wasting their time/money

I appreciate your input, not , but you, and impious are a few of the best ppl on here, you guys are always willing to give advice without being a stuck up jerk no it alls, that just put in smart remarks without giving any advice. Just wna say thanx. I use your guys talent and wealth of information and use it all the time, and try to spread the word and educated the willing, and lmao @ the morons. From all of the new comers and :noob:s, Keep up the good work

Edited January 12, 2011 by Sencheezy

[Sencheezy 689]

Just saw this up on a site

http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/sub_foam.html

It seems the installer added foam inside his box???? I understand that this is a home install, and HT and Car audio is two different animals, but surely there is a point to doing this? I see people puting things like, resisn and fiberglass insides boxes to help strenghting the box,. And I've seen people putting clay and other material in as well to change the inside parameters or what not. But what could be the reason in putting foam inside???

When I google the question I'm asking, I get this

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070724075957AAgbJXA

So @ this link, is this the answer, well correct answer? If so, then why haven't I seen any builds on here using the stuff?

[Duran 387]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

[///M5 2,833]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

[Sencheezy 689]

Just saw this up on a site

http://www.wardsweb....o/sub_foam.html

It seems the installer added foam inside his box???? I understand that this is a home install, and HT and Car audio is two different animals, but surely there is a point to doing this? I see people puting things like, resisn and fiberglass insides boxes to help strenghting the box,. And I've seen people putting clay and other material in as well to change the inside parameters or what not. But what could be the reason in putting foam inside???

When I google the question I'm asking, I get this

http://answers.yahoo...24075957AAgbJXA

So @ this link, is this the answer, well correct answer? If so, then why haven't I seen any builds on here using the stuff?

Input on this please ^^

[altoncustomtech 773]

Foam is used to soak up, get rid of, dampen (pick the terminology that works best for you) standing waves in an enclosure. However, as Impious has stated in post # 10, the waves produced by sub bass frequencies are too long in length to be a problem inside the enclosure. If it was a woofer instead of a sub woofer, it would play into higher frequencies where standing waves could become a problem. Now, putting foam or fiber insulation inside an enclosure certainly isn't going to hurt a damn thing and could possibly reduce some unwanted noises such as mechanical noises from the sub's suspension movement, possibly some port noise and other things like that. (though most decent subs shouldn't have much if any mechanical noise in the first place)

If you feel so inclined to use foam, fiber insulation, polyfil, acoustastuf or what have you, feel free as it won't hurt anything at all, but any real benefit in our cases will be minimal.

[Sencheezy 689]

Foam is used to soak up, get rid of, dampen (pick the terminology that works best for you) standing waves in an enclosure. However, as Impious has stated in post # 10, the waves produced by sub bass frequencies are too long in length to be a problem inside the enclosure. If it was a woofer instead of a sub woofer, it would play into higher frequencies where standing waves could become a problem. Now, putting foam or fiber insulation inside an enclosure certainly isn't going to hurt a damn thing and could possibly reduce some unwanted noises such as mechanical noises from the sub's suspension movement, possibly some port noise and other things like that. (though most decent subs shouldn't have much if any mechanical noise in the first place)

If you feel so inclined to use foam, fiber insulation, polyfil, acoustastuf or what have you, feel free as it won't hurt anything at all, but any real benefit in our cases will be minimal.

ahhhhh, I see, ok, gotcha!! Thanks bro.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I would love to hear the acoustics of this room.

[Sencheezy 689]

I would love to hear the acoustics of this room.

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

Lmao, holy crap

Edited January 14, 2011 by Sencheezy

[Duran 387]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

[edouble101 314]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

You should know better than to argue with the self rightous M#

[Sencheezy 689]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

You should know better than to argue with the self rightous M#

So are you argueing that you can indeed construct a box that will share the same attributes as a true horn enclosure within a limited space?

[edouble101 314]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

You should know better than to argue with the self rightous M#

So are you argueing that you can indeed construct a box that will share the same attributes as a true horn enclosure within a limited space?

I am not arguing ....no point in it

I think the design of a horn is intriguing. A folded horn design is even more interesting. Maybe someday in my spare time (lol spare time) I will research it.

[Sencheezy 689]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

You should know better than to argue with the self rightous M#

So are you argueing that you can indeed construct a box that will share the same attributes as a true horn enclosure within a limited space?

I am not arguing ....no point in it

I think the design of a horn is intriguing. A folded horn design is even more interesting. Maybe someday in my spare time (lol spare time) I will research it.

Well if your not arguing or if theres no point in it, then why did you say it????? lol. You must think otherwise right???

Yes, both design are interesting, but do they have any real world benefit compared to a regular ported box?

[edouble101 314]

Well if your not arguing or if theres no point in it, then why did you say it????? lol. You must think otherwise right???

Yes, both design are interesting, but do they have any real world benefit compared to a regular ported box?

My opinion to your second question. Horn enclosures can offer advantages over other types of enclosures. Higher sensitivity is the biggest plus. In the sub bass frequencies the horn can get very long. Horns have their problems like any kind of speaker, and can be extremely sensitive in the environment they are used. "The enthusiast would say that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and that the problems are challenges." I enjoy installation challenges. Will I ever build a horn for car audio use, no. Is there a real word benefit in car audio use for sub bass horn enclosures, sure. Implementing the enclosure into the vehicle maybe the issue though.

Nothing is impossible. Just ask Jon Whitledge he has the "worlds best car stereo" and it isnt even a car.

[Sencheezy 689]

Well if your not arguing or if theres no point in it, then why did you say it????? lol. You must think otherwise right???

Yes, both design are interesting, but do they have any real world benefit compared to a regular ported box?

My opinion to your second question. Horn enclosures can offer advantages over other types of enclosures. Higher sensitivity is the biggest plus. In the sub bass frequencies the horn can get very long. Horns have their problems like any kind of speaker, and can be extremely sensitive in the environment they are used. "The enthusiast would say that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and that the problems are challenges." I enjoy installation challenges. Will I ever build a horn for car audio use, no. Is there a real word benefit in car audio use for sub bass horn enclosures, sure. Implementing the enclosure into the vehicle maybe the issue though.

Nothing is impossible. Just ask Jon Whitledge he has the "worlds best car stereo" and it isnt even a car.

Hmmmmm, very interesting indeed. And thats all I was asking for, your opinion, I take your opinion(s) in great respect. The reason you will never build one for car audio use, is this because you believe it is not worth the time and effort in building one that may or may not satisfy your needs, or is it more less just not your cup of tea? As in you feel you will feel no diffence in between the designs audibly?

[edouble101 314]

Well if your not arguing or if theres no point in it, then why did you say it????? lol. You must think otherwise right???

Yes, both design are interesting, but do they have any real world benefit compared to a regular ported box?

My opinion to your second question. Horn enclosures can offer advantages over other types of enclosures. Higher sensitivity is the biggest plus. In the sub bass frequencies the horn can get very long. Horns have their problems like any kind of speaker, and can be extremely sensitive in the environment they are used. "The enthusiast would say that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and that the problems are challenges." I enjoy installation challenges. Will I ever build a horn for car audio use, no. Is there a real word benefit in car audio use for sub bass horn enclosures, sure. Implementing the enclosure into the vehicle maybe the issue though.

Nothing is impossible. Just ask Jon Whitledge he has the "worlds best car stereo" and it isnt even a car.

Hmmmmm, very interesting indeed. And thats all I was asking for, your opinion, I take your opinion(s) in great respect. The reason you will never build one for car audio use, is this because you believe it is not worth the time and effort in building one that may or may not satisfy your needs, or is it more less just not your cup of tea? As in you feel you will feel no diffence in between the designs audibly?

And I respect you respecting others opinion

I believe it would require a large amount of volume in a large vehicle. I would not be willing to give up that much space if I had a vehicle even big enough to hold such an enclosure.

Alan Dante, one of the top SPL competitors, +180db, has a single 18" in a crazy 6th or 8th order horn type enclosure. It is nuts. You should see the "vehicle" it is in. Definitely not road worthy. I think he is running a crazy 18" and two 12"s now breaking 180's.

[Sencheezy 689]

Well if your not arguing or if theres no point in it, then why did you say it????? lol. You must think otherwise right???

Yes, both design are interesting, but do they have any real world benefit compared to a regular ported box?

My opinion to your second question. Horn enclosures can offer advantages over other types of enclosures. Higher sensitivity is the biggest plus. In the sub bass frequencies the horn can get very long. Horns have their problems like any kind of speaker, and can be extremely sensitive in the environment they are used. "The enthusiast would say that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and that the problems are challenges." I enjoy installation challenges. Will I ever build a horn for car audio use, no. Is there a real word benefit in car audio use for sub bass horn enclosures, sure. Implementing the enclosure into the vehicle maybe the issue though.

Nothing is impossible. Just ask Jon Whitledge he has the "worlds best car stereo" and it isnt even a car.

Hmmmmm, very interesting indeed. And thats all I was asking for, your opinion, I take your opinion(s) in great respect. The reason you will never build one for car audio use, is this because you believe it is not worth the time and effort in building one that may or may not satisfy your needs, or is it more less just not your cup of tea? As in you feel you will feel no diffence in between the designs audibly?

And I respect you respecting others opinion

I believe it would require a large amount of volume in a large vehicle. I would not be willing to give up that much space if I had a vehicle even big enough to hold such an enclosure.

Alan Dante, one of the top SPL competitors, +180db, has a single 18" in a crazy 6th or 8th order horn type enclosure. It is nuts. You should see the "vehicle" it is in. Definitely not road worthy. I think he is running a crazy 18" and two 12"s now breaking 180's.

WTF??? How you can you get +180 with a single 18, lmao that is just nuts.

But back on topic, Yes, it would take a lot of space, which has been metion earlier in this thread, but Duran likes the design from PWK, and believes that it does work within a limited space (Assuming from previous reply), so I guess its all up to the owner preference or beliefs, because its not just you, also M5 mentioned the space that is needed to support this kind of design, "mathematically" speaking. From the looks of the design that Alton was able to provide earlier, seems like I would have enough space in my 4 dr explorer, which was the reason for me beliveing that I could support such a design.

[edouble101 314]

Good luck. Post build pics if you do it!

Sub bass frequencies will be difficult to achieve due to the horn length, possibly 10's of meters long. 80-250hz are probably do able.

[Duran 387]

It's not a true horn in the sense of what a horn really is and does. Nowhere near big enough to function as a horn is intended. There's nothing wrong at all with the output and response you can get from a good standard ported enclosure.

Oh yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with a classic style box that is built well. Just kinda window shopping @ different styles to get the most out of a box that is specified for the sub. When I see designs like the one you showed, it makes me wonder though why do they go through all that trouble, if it has no additional benefit then a traditional L shape design

Because some moron on the internet keeps proposing that these are workable in car without understanding rudimentary math. There is a huge benefit of a horn loaded enclosure, you just aren't going to fit it in your car if it is tuned as a sub. I outlined your two choices, you really should use one.

His enclosures are phenomenal, actually.

If you ever tried one you'd know...

Not sure who "him" is you are referring to, but there are a ton of buffoons proposing solutions like this. Comment still holds no matter who it is. Math doesn't lie and you can't cheat Physics.

Peter W. Kulicki, he's an acoustic engineer as well

You should know better than to argue with the self rightous M#

So are you argueing that you can indeed construct a box that will share the same attributes as a true horn enclosure within a limited space?

Sean is arguing that it isn't a true horn, which it in fact isn't, they are folded horns, and various other designs.

[Impious 1,476]

Folded or not, still not enough length/area to do anything in the true subbass frequencies.

[Impious 1,476]

Just saw this up on a site

http://www.wardsweb....o/sub_foam.html

It seems the installer added foam inside his box???? I understand that this is a home install, and HT and Car audio is two different animals, but surely there is a point to doing this? I see people puting things like, resisn and fiberglass insides boxes to help strenghting the box,. And I've seen people putting clay and other material in as well to change the inside parameters or what not. But what could be the reason in putting foam inside???

When I google the question I'm asking, I get this

http://answers.yahoo...24075957AAgbJXA

So @ this link, is this the answer, well correct answer? If so, then why haven't I seen any builds on here using the stuff?

They are different beasts, but physics remain the same. Some people do things more because it gives them a warm, fuzzy feeling inside than any logical acoustic purpose. But, let's look at this a little more.

First, we would need to determine the potential for standing waves within the enclosure. From what I could find the formula for determining the fundamental frequency for standing waves is;

f = V/2d

Where:

f = Frequency

V = velocity of sound

d = dimension of the parallel walls

His enclosure looks to be around 54" tall (based on the approximately 18" cutout on the baffle, it looks like the overall height is around 3x the size of the cutout, so we'll guesstimate 3 * 18 = 54). The velocity of sound is around 1130ft/sec, or 13560in/sec. Using the above equation, this would give us:

f = 13560/(2*54) = 125hz

So, the fundamental of the standing wave in that enclosure would be 125hz (there will be standing waves at the harmonics as well, but we'll ignore those for the moment since they'll be far enough outside of the bandwidth to not really matter).

Where is the typical subwoofer crossed over? 60-80hz? With a fairly steep slope? With a 60hz lowpass and 24db/oct crossover, the output from the subwoofer itself would be attenuated by 24db before you would reach the standing wave. You would be well outside the operating bandwidth of the subwoofer, at 125hz the output from the main speakers should be dominating the response of the system. So that standing wave won't really be much of a problem to begin with because it will be well enough attenuated and outside of the bandwidth of the subwoofer .

But let's say we do feel that the 125hz standing wave is a problem, maybe we plan to use the subwoofer up that high. We can't only worry about the standing wave itself....we also have to look at what is done to "fix" the standing wave problem if one exists. This guy felt that lining his enclosure with OCF (open cell foam) was a good solution to the problem. Now, the absorption coefficient of an open cell foam is directly related to it's thickness (among some other things). He doesn't state what the thickness of the OCF is....but the wood is 3/4", and the foam appears to be somewhere around twice as thick, so let's assume it's 1.5" OCF. What is the absorption coefficient of 1.5" OCF at 125hz? (absorption coefficient is how much energy is absorbed by the material). It's probably going to be ~ .1 or so, which means it's only absorbing 10% of the energy. 90% of the energy is still present. Pretty ineffective treatment, wouldn't you say?

So let's say you have a really large subwoofer enclosure that has a standing wave right in your problem area, say 50hz (you would need to have two parallel enclosure walls approximately 11 feet apart to have a standing wave close to 50hz). You are not going to be able to throw some 1.5" or 2.5" OCF on the enclosure walls and call it a day. The absorption coefficient of that thickness OCF is going to be virtually zero at 50hz. The foam would need to be incredibly thick, and ideally spaced away several inches away from the enclosure walls, to begin to have a noticeable effect. Not something easily accomplished.

So, moral of the story. Most people aren't going to experience problems with standing waves within the enclosure for subwoofers. If they do, then the solution shown in that link (relatively thin OCF) is not going to do much to solve the problem anyways.

Polyfill has a different goal. The goal of the polyfill is to "trick" the enclosure into thinking the enclosure is slightly larger than the physical dimensions. It can work for this purpose. But the lining on the enclosure walls are not polyfill. For polyfill to work, you need to restrict the movement of the air within the enclosure. Polyfill is essentially pillow stuffing.