Second Battery Questions

[Dammed 12]

man your father is just like mine. Thank god I have convinced him that I know generally more about cars then he does.

Ask your father to read this thread, and show him examples of people having HO alternators and old batteries (bought new by the same owner). Or you can just do what the fudge you want and ignore him, I did that once. Wow what a fight we had... But in the long run, he understood what I did and that we both were correct. He's always correct you know...

good luck mate.

[Frostedflakejake 148]

alright guys =]

he doesn't really seem to consider anything i say... haha. so after he is home from work tomorrow i'll tell him what Shizzon said and hopefully by tomorrow he would have talked to his own guy at his work and got a response. i think i'll just install it Thursday while he is at work... haha. im really getting sick of this especially since i have this week off of school and i normally never have time between girlfriend, school, and a job to do installs.

tomorrow around six thirty ill post the news

[smashedz28 110]

Ok, sorry to jump in here so late.. i read most of the first page and the 2nd page. I suppose my battery question can go here. No need to start another one. M y situation is this.. I have a.. hell i dont know what it is battery in front. its not very big, not name brand. kinda weak to be honest. and i just got my Kintik HC2000 in today.... hooking them up i understand, my question is will there be a problem if the batteries dont match? id hate to have to go buy another one..no aftermarket electrical has been installed in the vehicle. Im taking my time, i have a pile of goodies sitting in my room for when i install everything including a 220 amp HO alternator, all 0 gauge wire, sundown 1500 and a crap load of connectors and fuses...sub will be ordered by the end of the month... so back to my question.. will there be a problem running a power wire between positive on the starting and positive on the kinetik? If it is a problem will just scraping the old cheapo battery and slappin the kinetik in there as a single battery be ok?

[smashedz28 110]

anyone?

[NB50 206]

tell him devices only receive current when they need it. just because cuttrrent runs over something doesnt mean it receives it too

Please explain this more, it doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure that door knob I shocked today didn't need the current and I'm pretty sure it received it also.

[Duran 387]

tell him devices only receive current when they need it. just because cuttrrent runs over something doesnt mean it receives it too

Please explain this more, it doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure that door knob I shocked today didn't need the current and I'm pretty sure it received it also.

I think he's getting at how the REM on an amplifier works, but doesn't have a full understanding of it.

[audiolife 14]

Ok, sorry to jump in here so late.. i read most of the first page and the 2nd page. I suppose my battery question can go here. No need to start another one. M y situation is this.. I have a.. hell i dont know what it is battery in front. its not very big, not name brand. kinda weak to be honest. and i just got my Kintik HC2000 in today.... hooking them up i understand, my question is will there be a problem if the batteries dont match? id hate to have to go buy another one..no aftermarket electrical has been installed in the vehicle. Im taking my time, i have a pile of goodies sitting in my room for when i install everything including a 220 amp HO alternator, all 0 gauge wire, sundown 1500 and a crap load of connectors and fuses...sub will be ordered by the end of the month... so back to my question.. will there be a problem running a power wire between positive on the starting and positive on the kinetik? If it is a problem will just scraping the old cheapo battery and slappin the kinetik in there as a single battery be ok?

• Mixing Different Battery Technologies

Kinetik Power Cells are compatible with most standard 12 volt charging systems and battery technologies. We do however advise using Kinetik Power Cells exclusively throughout the vehicle for maximum voltage, performance and longevity of aftermarket electronics as well as the Power cells. This will minimize self discharging of the power storage devices in the vehicle while not in use also. Kinetik Power Cells have a very low self discharge rate much lower than that of a standard ‘wet cell’ car battery. When different types of power storage devices (batteries or Power Cells) are used in parallel in an electrical system, current will have a tendency to flow between storage devices unnecessarily resulting in heat build up and loss of power where it is needed most. When Kinetik Power Cells are used throughout the install, current will flow directly from the Power Cells to the load in a balanced manner minimizing ‘fighting’ between unlike storage devices.

Kinetik High Current Power Cells

[Frostedflakejake 148]

so to anyone thats following....

my dad asked his electrical engineer that works for him over at ford and now i have to draw a wiring diagram for this guy before he gives any advice. whatever.

but yeah, Shizzon could you go into more detail about that? I didn't know that items had a "choice" to get current or not, even if it is fully charged.

[smashedz28 110]

Ok, sorry to jump in here so late.. i read most of the first page and the 2nd page. I suppose my battery question can go here. No need to start another one. M y situation is this.. I have a.. hell i dont know what it is battery in front. its not very big, not name brand. kinda weak to be honest. and i just got my Kintik HC2000 in today.... hooking them up i understand, my question is will there be a problem if the batteries dont match? id hate to have to go buy another one..no aftermarket electrical has been installed in the vehicle. Im taking my time, i have a pile of goodies sitting in my room for when i install everything including a 220 amp HO alternator, all 0 gauge wire, sundown 1500 and a crap load of connectors and fuses...sub will be ordered by the end of the month... so back to my question.. will there be a problem running a power wire between positive on the starting and positive on the kinetik? If it is a problem will just scraping the old cheapo battery and slappin the kinetik in there as a single battery be ok?

• Mixing Different Battery Technologies

Kinetik Power Cells are compatible with most standard 12 volt charging systems and battery technologies. We do however advise using Kinetik Power Cells exclusively throughout the vehicle for maximum voltage, performance and longevity of aftermarket electronics as well as the Power cells. This will minimize self discharging of the power storage devices in the vehicle while not in use also. Kinetik Power Cells have a very low self discharge rate much lower than that of a standard ‘wet cell’ car battery. When different types of power storage devices (batteries or Power Cells) are used in parallel in an electrical system, current will have a tendency to flow between storage devices unnecessarily resulting in heat build up and loss of power where it is needed most. When Kinetik Power Cells are used throughout the install, current will flow directly from the Power Cells to the load in a balanced manner minimizing ‘fighting’ between unlike storage devices.

Kinetik High Current Power Cells

Thank you. I remember reading that, just wanted someone's personal ' war story' about the issue. guess ill scrap the cheap battery and run only the kinetik and see how it works out. dont want to damage anything.. im trying to do this right, so keeping with the spirit ill stay with one type of battery. sure it would work if i didnt.. but doing this install half ass isnt what im going for. if not ill just buckle down and buy another kinetik (even though ive been hearing bad about them lately).. thanks again

[audiolife 14]

Ok, sorry to jump in here so late.. i read most of the first page and the 2nd page. I suppose my battery question can go here. No need to start another one. M y situation is this.. I have a.. hell i dont know what it is battery in front. its not very big, not name brand. kinda weak to be honest. and i just got my Kintik HC2000 in today.... hooking them up i understand, my question is will there be a problem if the batteries dont match? id hate to have to go buy another one..no aftermarket electrical has been installed in the vehicle. Im taking my time, i have a pile of goodies sitting in my room for when i install everything including a 220 amp HO alternator, all 0 gauge wire, sundown 1500 and a crap load of connectors and fuses...sub will be ordered by the end of the month... so back to my question.. will there be a problem running a power wire between positive on the starting and positive on the kinetik? If it is a problem will just scraping the old cheapo battery and slappin the kinetik in there as a single battery be ok?

• Mixing Different Battery Technologies

Kinetik Power Cells are compatible with most standard 12 volt charging systems and battery technologies. We do however advise using Kinetik Power Cells exclusively throughout the vehicle for maximum voltage, performance and longevity of aftermarket electronics as well as the Power cells. This will minimize self discharging of the power storage devices in the vehicle while not in use also. Kinetik Power Cells have a very low self discharge rate much lower than that of a standard ‘wet cell’ car battery. When different types of power storage devices (batteries or Power Cells) are used in parallel in an electrical system, current will have a tendency to flow between storage devices unnecessarily resulting in heat build up and loss of power where it is needed most. When Kinetik Power Cells are used throughout the install, current will flow directly from the Power Cells to the load in a balanced manner minimizing ‘fighting’ between unlike storage devices.

Kinetik High Current Power Cells

Thank you. I remember reading that, just wanted someone's personal ' war story' about the issue. guess ill scrap the cheap battery and run only the kinetik and see how it works out. dont want to damage anything.. im trying to do this right, so keeping with the spirit ill stay with one type of battery. sure it would work if i didnt.. but doing this install half ass isnt what im going for. if not ill just buckle down and buy another kinetik (even though ive been hearing bad about them lately).. thanks again

It is better to go matched size as well as brand. The farther away you get in specs of the batteries the harsher the end result can be. My old SQ comp car I sold in 1999 or 2000 ended up getting the back seats taken out with a wall of 8 12's put in. The system consisted of 12 st and later mc 300 memphis amplifiers. It had 1 amp bridged to each sub and 3 more bridged to each 8" memphis sync (1 was a center channel) with the last amp ran in stereo to another pair of 8"syncs behind the front seats.1 hcpower 2000 (that was before they changed their name to kinetik) under the hood and 3 more in back lasted at least 8 years and it was a comp/show car for the shop for 5+ years all off one Ohio gen 190 amp alt.

[shizzzon 461]

ill try and get u a diagram this evening

[Frostedflakejake 148]

thanks shizzon! i already drew one and gave it to my dad to take to work today, but i would still appreciate yours as well! just to make sure mine and yours match up and just another one (more professional looking no doubt) would help as well. especially since i wasn't entirely sure where to stick the relay. i placed it logically according to the diagram from oznium.com.

thanks!

[shizzzon 461]

ok here u go.

the following is what the car looks like stock-

Notice the fuse in line with the alternator, that fuse is actually in your fuse box but everything else is dead on. The alternator's factory ground is ran through the mounting bracket that holds the alternator so there typically is no wire for alt ground.

Now the following is more advanced wiring that u will need to do-

ok, lets start with the alternator-

First, you will want to upgrade your ground with a wire this time. If using an alternator which is rated for ~135A or less, 4awg ground wire is gine, otherwise 1/0 is highly preferred. To run this wire, make it less than 3ft long and connect it somewhere on the alternator's bracket via a bolt that currently exists and attach the other end to the car's frame. Some people will say to just attach it to the engine somewhere... Well, the point is to upgrade the alt's ground so by forcing it to go through factory brackets(multiple connections all joined together equals more and more resistance)... it's best to ground directly to the alt then to car's frame.

Next, you will want to ADD, not replace, but add a new power connection from alt to battery. Same gauge wire recommendation as ground still exists here, however length can be as long as needed to reach battery's + post. MAKE SURE U FUSE THIS WIRE. Some people don't. If you do not and the connection ever goes to ground... your battery can explode or wire can catch fire, etc... fuse is best! Fuse this connection with either the fuse size of the factory fuse(if still a stock alternator) or the rating of the wire itself (4awg = 130-150A, 1/0 = 250-300A)

Now you see another ground wire coming off starting battery.. that's necessary to decrease resistance. If you ever upgrade your alternator, It's MANDATORY that you do this or wire can catch fire if too much current is forced through factory wiring. Again, same gauge wire recommendation for this ground wire too.

Now, the wire that joins the front battery to the rear needs to be big due to it's length. I recommend a minimum of 1/0 for this cable.

Now you see how there is a fuse there right after the battery on this cable! Make sure you put that on there NO MORE THAN 18" from the starting battery!

Now, we follow the cable on down to the SOLENOID. The solenoid is lenient on connection points so it's hard to goof this up.

There are 4 points on a solenoid, 2 large and 2 small. the 2 large are POWER IN, POWER OUT. This is what the 1/0 cable is ran into and back out of.

The other 2 points are ground and 12v ignition wire. It doesnt matter which one you use, just ground one with 18awg wire or larger wire and the other point MUST BE connected to 12v ignition wire using ~16awg or larger due to it's length to run from the back of the car to the front. 12v ignition wire is ran to the stereo so u can tap off that. This wire is usually the large red wire going to stereo but make sure it is before just tapping into it.

Now, we go power out from the solenoid to another fuse. This fuse is the SAME SIZE as the previous fuse size on the same wire. Both fuse sizes can be either 250 or 300A. These fuses are to protect the wire and since this is 1/0, that is there typical current rating. MAKE SURE THIS FUSE IS WITHIN 18" OF THE REAR BATTERY!

Now, after that fuse, it runs into the battery's positive post.

If you have another battery back there, the positive on the first battery will run in parallel with the positive on the other battery. Also parallel all grounds to all rear batteries.

It is NOT required to run a ground from the back battery to the front AND NEVER recommended to do that as a primary ground for the rear battery(ies).

After all batteries are connected in the back, run 1 or 2 4awg or 1/0 wire grounds to the car's frame with each wire being no longer than 3ft.

That's it! When connecting amps, try and run the amp's ground directly to the battery if it's within 3ft of length. If you think it's gonna be longer than 3ft to get to the battery's ground post from amp but u can run it to the car's frame in under 3ft, do that instead.

When running power cable from all amps to battery(ies), make sure you put a fuse on EACH power run within 18" from the battery it is going to.

that should do it.

[shizzzon 461]

if u are wondering in what order you connect your rear batteries up... do this as it will help alot-

When installing fuse blocks, leave all the fuses out of the blocks and go ahead and connect all wires including grounding everything to the car's frame.

That way, the only connections left are to install the fuses. They will probably spark but at least it's here at the fuse block and not on the battery's terminal.

If you had a short and you connected the grounding wire to a battery with fuses in place.. that post would be arcing like crazy, i've seen it happen... NO.. not me... but is funny to watch, scares the crap out of people.

[Frostedflakejake 148]

thanks shizzon =]

the diagram my dad got was nearly the same. it goes like this (sorry for no pics, i know that would be hella useful)

alternator goes directly to input for the solenoid. so just move your wire from starter battery to solenoid over so it goes from alternator to solenoid. Ignition source comes from the ignition switch which the starter battery is also hooked up to. from from the solenoid out to the fuse then to the big battery in the back.

any problem in running from just alternator to solenoid?? I kinda think its the only compromise we can reach... i'm going to order that relay tomorrow and hook it up a.s.a.p. however i'm going to look for one on a different site seeing that oznium has them out of stock. and i don't feel like waiting 8 weeks to be honest.

great info. man!

[slim2fattycake 85]

if u are wondering in what order you connect your rear batteries up... do this as it will help alot-

When installing fuse blocks, leave all the fuses out of the blocks and go ahead and connect all wires including grounding everything to the car's frame.

That way, the only connections left are to install the fuses. They will probably spark but at least it's here at the fuse block and not on the battery's terminal.

If you had a short and you connected the grounding wire to a battery with fuses in place.. that post would be arcing like crazy, i've seen it happen... NO.. not me... but is funny to watch, scares the crap out of people.

I see what you did there.

[shizzzon 461]

no, u should run from the alternator to the starting battery to the solenoid to the rear battery(ies).

I have no idea why he thinks to run to the solenoid...

But again, tell him that even though the charging cable is ran over the starting battery first, it WILL NOT ACCEPT CURRENT unless the battery is not fully charged!

If that were the case.. then the starting battery would ALWAYS be pulling current into itself.

If you want to test this theory then do this-

Start your car then drive around for about 5-10minutes so the alt can charge the starting battery back up from the crank you just did.

Now come back home and put car in park but leave car running.

Get an ammeter and measure how much current is coming off the alternator's charging cable. Now measure the current coming off the starting battery's factory power cable.

Subtract the difference and the remainder should be going to the starting battery... which isn't much.

If he still doesn't understand\believe... ask him how i run over 10,000w of power on a stock alternator, stock battery and 2 extra batteries in the back with 2 200A solenoids in parallel(that's for use of an aftermarket alternator).

The answer is- i onyl go to competition and blast for short periods. The battery's hold their capacity well. I pull about 1,100A of current for 1-2 seconds then let the stock alt charge all 3 batteries back up.

that alternator isn't stressing because we tested it doing 58A at idle max and it only puts out 33A right after a blast it. 3.9A is what goes to the rear batteries so it doesnt phase them a lot.

There is ONLY 1 type of load i am aware of that exists without the user knowing it and that's battery charging... That should be the only excuse of thinking current is being dispersed out of the alternator all the time...

If the batteries are all charged up.. then there is no demand for current output of the alternator except for what's running the car.

I've had people at Auto Zone tell me that there should be a se;arate charging cable running from the alternator to EACH battery in the car...

HAHAHAHA

That's wrong!

That's why Auto Zone isn't in the car audio field.

If that were true... then alternator's charging post would be like 6x taller than a battery post... impractical.

IF he wants some more input... go here- www.dcpowerinc.com and give your dad their phone number. Let Dave tell your dad all about how it's setup.

[Frostedflakejake 148]

If that were the case.. then the starting battery would ALWAYS be pulling current into itself.

i already know what his response for that one is. he is going to agree that the starter battery isn't always pulling current. only that when the rear battery is going to ask for like 90 amps, the alt is gonna send it back there and the front will get it too. which i know i already told you and i'm starting to sound like a broken record... i may just do that with dcpower. that's actually quite a good idea. will they be willing to help even though i have none of their products?

but i am dumbfounded as well as to why the first battery wouldn't take the charge.. i mean, i understand what my dad is saying and i can follow what he is saying, however, i just trust you and your experience more. ha. funny how that works. i should probably trust my dad, and understand what you're saying.

[shizzzon 461]

the majority of the powr amps will receive power is from the alternator. Once that is depleted, it's the rear batteries. The front battery in my experience doesnt contribute that much because it's not in the path of least resistance!

[Frostedflakejake 148]

yeah we understand that which is why we don't exactly understand why the front battery needs to be hooked up to the back at all.

and what is the harm/stupidity of going straight from alternator to relay? mechanically... it seems to make sense to me!! but that's why i'm new at this. ha

and prepare yourself for a noob question

For a week, until the relay comes, could i run just the shuriken under the hood? as in replace my starting battery with it? just i told a bunch of people that i would have the sub running by monday. Now i by NO means need to have it hooked up, as i have learned that in this hobby impatience is truly your worst enemy.

[jcarter1885 995]

I wouldnt even buy the solenoid/relay but if you already did then you can use it, I would install everything and put the Shuriken in the front and see how it holds up. If it holds up then your fine until you can get another battery if need be. If the battery doesnt hold up to well then I would keep the gains down or close to off and volume down till you can get a second Shuriken if your so worried about mixing batteries.

[Frostedflakejake 148]

Just thought i'd throw in an update! I've been running my electrical system like this for the past 7 months or so now

Stock Starting Battery Up front connected to iraggi alt using stock connections

Shuriken in the back connected and fused to the PAC battery isolater using 0gauge and a 300amp fuse

PAC battery isolater connected and fused to the iraggi alt using 0gauge and a 300amp fuse

Battery grounded to frame in the back with 0 gauge

Alt grounded to grame in the front with 0gauge

Monitoring Voltage on the Shuriken with a Stinger volt meter.

Amp is a Saz-3000d and sub is a 18 inch BTL

So far, this set-up has worked flawlessly for me. While idling, my voltage is moslty around 14.2 and while driving its up to 14.4. I've seen it drop down to 13.9 once during loud music. Most of the time my voltage stays in the 14's! I'm very pleased to be able to post these numbers especially with the concern of the Shuriken and the battery isolater. Lets just hope the Shuriken holds up!

[cheese20323 13]

Those are some nice voltages! Me I'm like in the 12's but don't feel like doing anything soon and its at 4 ohms so I have no worries.

[Frostedflakejake 148]

I know right? Nice enough to make me question the Stinger! But i double checked them with a DMM and they are all right!