Starting to plan my Sound Stage.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I am almost done with my sub-stage and Sound deadening So its time to start planning my front set-up.

I want a midbass in the front door with my midrange and tweeter Now that I will no longer have rear's. I had been thinking of a round misbass but have heard such great things about the XS-69's and know they are same SD as an 8". I am also VERY interrested in the XS-65 comps for the mids and tweeters, but honestly have never heard any of them. I like the speaker's specs, ID customer service, and want to give my money to an American company. I will be driving 200 miles to Denver to hear them for myself before making any final decision.

I am after flat response, Good sound stage, and good imaging. Dare I use the "SQ" term? I know ALOT of these things's will be achieved through tuning and placement. I am a patient guy and know that I will be tuning and adjusting for a few months after installation. NOT a problem.

I will be using the 3-way mode on my PXA-H100 for the crossover, sub--midbass--midrange and tweeter. The XS-65 midrange has a natural roll-off and the crossover that come's in the comp set adjust's the tweeter ONLY. I plan on running 2 MRP-F600 amp's bridged. One for the midbass and the other for the mid's and tweeter's. both set's of speaker's are rated at 225 watt's and Eric Stevens the ID tech says these are good for 300 watt's with a CLEAN signal and SMART user plus I like ALOT of overhead because 60 year's of different studio recording style's leaves's ALOT to be desired sometime's.

Like I said in the title I am ONLY planning at this point, I aleady have front comp's installed to get me by for now. I am open to suggetion's and will consider raw drivers if someone want's to take the time to help me pick them, I get a headache trying to go through all the options at Parts Express and Madi-Sound.

[REVpuggie 23]

a soundstage that is high up on the dash will not be achieved by placing a 3-way in a door , the tweeter and mid will simply be placed too low .

tweeter on earheigt on- or of-axis a mid as close a possible to it.

dome for off-axis (you'll have to try to let the windshield work in your advantage ) or a cone if on-axis or close , this because cones often have a lower fs and therefore can be crossed lower getting getting an even higher staging and possibly cross outside the range of vocals . a dome has a much better off-axis responce (wider dispersion)

[///M5 2,833]

I agree the challenge is all in the install and that is the part you need to focus on first. Mounting locations might make some drivers not so user friendly and others fit right in. Knowing where you can put things and what level of install effort you are willing to put in will really help us narrow down the driver selection. Without this information I wouldn't even think of selecting drivers

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I have placed the tweeters I have now in the door, a-piilar and in the factory location against the winshield. I understand I will have to work with placement to achieve a good sound stage, but every setup and speaker is different. The XS crossover has ALOT of adjustment for tweeter placement ALSO. I know I can raise the sound stage with a little EQ if needed.

The passenger midrange in my car is on axis with me and the driver's side is less than 30 degrees from the use of door pod's.

[///M5 2,833]

I don't quite understand. You have a 2way+sub crossover in the Alpine unit and then refer to using the XS's crossover. Which are you planning to do?

The XS crossover flexibility is a huge joke compared to the active capability of the H100; however, you reference a 3 way above and it isn't capable of doing a 3 way so again I am not sure what you are leaning towards.

As for mounting locations. Giving us your options would help. It sounds like that you have door pods and potentially can do A pillar mounts, but some more detail and even pictures would be really helpful.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I agree the challenge is all in the install and that is the part you need to focus on first. Mounting locations might make some drivers not so user friendly and others fit right in. Knowing where you can put things and what level of install effort you are willing to put in will really help us narrow down the driver selection. Without this information I wouldn't even think of selecting drivers

I know install is 75% of the sound stage, I will start with the door pod's I have now for the 6.5 and the tweeter in the spot I have them know. I will place the 6x9 under the armrest behind the midrange. I can make them on axis also.

I will move the tweeter's around with velcro if I can't get them to sound good mounted flat in the door. I can make pods for the tweters to put the on axis.

I will NOT put speakers's in the kick pod's as I live in Colorado and they would get destroyed.

Damn you type to fast M5, I will anwser the next post now.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I don't quite understand. You have a 2way+sub crossover in the Alpine unit and then refer to using the XS's crossover. Which are you planning to do?

The XS crossover flexibility is a huge joke compared to the active capability of the H100; however, you reference a 3 way above and it isn't capable of doing a 3 way so again I am not sure what you are leaning towards.

As for mounting locations. Giving us your options would help. It sounds like that you have door pods and potentially can do A pillar mounts, but some more detail and even pictures would be really helpful.

The problem with the 9886 and H100 is once the H100 is used I only get the 3 RCA channel's. My next option is Y the mid channel and use the crossovers in the amps for the midbass--midrange since I won't be adjusting this point much. This will leave the HU crossover's for sub--midbass and midrange--tweeter points with no passive crossovers. If I do this I will use a third smaller amp for the tweeters. I have a RF punch 301 amp I will use for the tweeters.

You should now by now Sean that I will put in ALL the EFFORT it take's to make myself happy. I LOVE to build things with my hands, quit smoking 3 years ago, quit drinking 1 1/2 ago, and have a SHIT LOAD of extra Energy and spare time on my hands. I will build and re-build until I am happy with the results and learn alot along the way.

My next post will be a picture and options.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I have three options for the tweeters. I can leave them where they are now, I can put them back in the A-pillars or up against the winshield firing straight up, refrecting off the winshield. I have tried the tweeters I have now in all three spots. against the winsheild definetly had the highest sound stage naturally, the A pillars ONLY sounded good IF I leaned forward so the a-pillars could probly sound pretty good with on axis pods, I have an extra set of A-pillars with a hole already in them. THe tweeters in the doors where they are now definetly gives the most detail and I can make the on axis if wanted . All spots required different att. to match the levels so the closer proximty of the doors requires less power.

I do have the polarity switched on the tweeter right now because was out of phase in the door. They where like BARK, BARK.

THe midrange is as good as its probably gonna get afar as location and on-axis short of running 3 1/2's or 4 1/2's in the A-pillar, and with time alinment they are pretty good distance wise.

The midbass can go behind the midrange, in the back door, or under the front seats.

I don't have a golden ear so 3db shift is probably an understatement.

Edited February 19, 2010 by j-roadtatts

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

UPDATE:

Ok so I know a 3-way is a stupid idea, and will not help create the sound stage I am after. SO lets start over and design a 2-way.

M5, I know speakers are your fortay. I have read ALOT of your posts on the matter and know your feelings.

My #1 goal in a truely good sound stage.

I have the H100 for prossessing.

I AM MORE THAN HAPPY to run a full range with no tweeter. Infact this is how my RF premium factory stereo is set up in Xterra, which has a GREAT sound stage. I looked at the Fostex ff85k and ff125k and other 3" you suggested in the other topic. I also looked at what you have in your rides.

A tweeter and midbass in the door where I have them would be the easiest. But if a full range on the dash or A-pillar will net better results and image better than lets go that route.

I am willing to run 8ohm speakers and no tweeter.

where a 3" will fit on axis.....

The 3" in the A-pillar....

Don't laugh, the butter dish is where a 4 1/2" will fit in the A-pillar......

3" firing up......

the factory tweeter location.....

the RF in the Xterra.........

how it looks sitting.....

door open.....

Let me know your thoughts and we will go from there.

Edited February 21, 2010 by j-roadtatts

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

I spent some time looking at tweeters and full range drivers.

the tweeters I looked at:

Seas 27TFFNC/G

ScanSpeak D3004/602000

LPG 25NFA

The Full Range speakers I looked at

Fostex FF125K

Fostex FF85K

TangBang W4-1320SJ

TangBang W3-1364A

TangBang W4-1052SD

I looked at others but these are the one's I think may meet my needs as they are the most efficient/sensitive and had the best looking response curves. I won't even look at midbass speakers until you tell me to.

[jcarter1885 995]

check out zaphaudio.com for some reviews and what not on a wide array of speakers if you havent been to the site already.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

check out zaphaudio.com for some reviews and what not on a wide array of speakers if you havent been to the site already.

This will keep me busy reading for a couple days, thanks jay-cee.

[jcarter1885 995]

Not a problem man.

[///M5 2,833]

Here is the skinny IMO.

If you can run a 3-4" driver completely on axis then you can get away with just a midbass and a full ranger. If you can't get it on axis then a tweeter and a mid-woofer would be a better combo. Obviously there is some gray area between ON & OFF axis and that compromise you can choose from. Being a bass player I would nearly always pick the dedicated midbass and full range driver. Two main reasons. 1) It is the only way to get great midbass in a car, 2) Having a single driver play MOST of the frequency range really helps staging and simplifies a lot of the issues surrounding installation in a car.

That being said. I'd play with your butter dish some more and decide if you are willing to do it. I'll also add that I prefer a 3" full range driver for its reach, but there are 4"ers that can work too. My favorite 4 would require that you add a tweeter as well though which then defeats the purpose.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Try Sean's idea, and when people go to demo it, they can say "I can't believe it's not 3-way active."

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Good day sir, how where the trails?

So a 3" on axis on the dash pointing right at me will net enough output with a 15" sub? The type-r SPR-s17 comps have about half the output I am looking for.

I see the SP d3004/602000 plays pretty low, has good dispersion, can I get near same results with the d3004 in the door as with a 3"on the dash on axis? Not trying to ask stupid quetions, just this is the easiest mounting, if not I WILL BE doing the 3" on the dash on axis.

I really like the way my Xterra sounds (other than output) with no tweeters, the 2" in the dash and the 6x9 way the hell down at the bottom of the door, 8" sub under the drivers seat, and 6.5 in rear doors for rear fill. In the Xterra I can't even localize the 6x9's or rear 6.5's they are just there.

So i can make a 3" work right here, this mock horn is 3 3/4" dia.

What 3" do you recommend for this location?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Hey Sean can you go define beaming in the Audio Terminology tech section, I went to add it to the list but not sure of the definition?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Quote ///M5

That being said. I'd play with your butter dish some more and decide if you are willing to do it. I'll also add that I prefer a 3" full range driver for its reach, but there are 4"ers that can work too. My favorite 4 would require that you add a tweeter as well though which then defeats the purpose.

I can only fit the 4 1/2" in the A-pillar, but they would be off axis a little. I don't mind doing a tweeter with the 4 1/2" if you can tell me how I would do the processing? Hevean forbid I say his name on here but the 4 1/2" and tweeter would have to be like the A-pillars in St*ve M*ede's Tahoe for an example.

Edited February 22, 2010 by j-roadtatts

[///M5 2,833]

Trails were great except at the start and the end. Close to home and resorts tend to get walloped but the rest in the middle was really sweet. Put down around 400mi and love the new ride

As for a 3" having enough output, it depends on what frequencies you have it play and what enough is. If you really want to wang you might have to raise the lower frequency that it plays and have a bit more underlap, but that isn't such a bad thing.

To your beaming question, I could type something up but definitely not today as I am super busy

Basically. When a speaker plays you want to have a completely uniform output spherically. Obviously this never happens, but at really low frequencies it is optimized. As as the frequency goes up, the wavelength gets short enough that the wave can have destructive and constructive interference across the speaker cone you start to get major nulls in the frequency response and it "beams" sound directionally much worse than at lower frequencies since there is wave mixing. In other words, the larger the cone the beaming will happen lower in the frequency domain.

As for adding a tweeter, I'd personally recommend you try to keep this simple. It is very possible to add one and to do it passively, but that isn't so trivial without at least some measurement equipment. We could surely make some assumptions, but measurements in situ always provide better results.

*I hope this is understandable I am leading a conference call right now so I am not very focused.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Trails were great except at the start and the end. Close to home and resorts tend to get walloped but the rest in the middle was really sweet. Put down around 400mi and love the new ride

That it, Now I NEED to go ride!!!

As for a 3" having enough output, it depends on what frequencies you have it play and what enough is. If you really want to wang you might have to raise the lower frequency that it plays and have a bit more underlap, but that isn't such a bad thing.

I only listen about 20 min twice a day on the way to work and back, and I LOVE to "wang it" or listen at full tilt, but hate listener fatigue. I probably like about twice the output that most find comfortable, and I won't have any rear fill either (sedan). my type-r's could stand to play atleast 3db's louder for my taste. I can only fit the 4 1/2" flat in the A -pillar, not on the dash?

To your beaming question, I could type something up but definitely not today as I am super busy

Basically. When a speaker plays you want to have a completely uniform output spherically. Obviously this never happens, but at really low frequencies it is optimized. As as the frequency goes up, the wavelength gets short enough that the wave can have destructive and constructive interference across the speaker cone you start to get major nulls in the frequency response and it "beams" sound directionally much worse than at lower frequencies since there is wave mixing. In other words, the larger the cone the beaming will happen lower in the frequency domain.

So beaming would be why the 3" is better than the 4's?

As for adding a tweeter, I'd personally recommend you try to keep this simple. It is very possible to add one and to do it passively, but that isn't so trivial without at least some measurement equipment. We could surely make some assumptions, but measurements in situ always provide better results.

I would LOVE to K.I.S.S. I REALLY don't like tweeter anywho, I don't think they likes me either. As far as test equipment, I only have the IMPRINT, which is nice to atleast check what the car is doing to everything.

*I hope this is understandable I am leading a conference call right now so I am not very focused.

I understand your time issue's and today is my friday at work, So don't fell hurried, BUT I MUST understand WHY I am doing WHAT I am doing before I can do something.

So PLEASE and THANK YOU for answering my question's Later when you have the time and are MOSS FOCUSED.

Edited February 22, 2010 by j-roadtatts

[REVpuggie 23]

could you post up some pictures of how you made your doors ? and how did you cross the 2 way ? have you tried playing with the righthand kick/mid out of phase ?

quite possibly you're lacking output because the kick/mids are not playing at full potential .

[///M5 2,833]

What wasn't clear?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

What wasn't clear?

HA HA speaker recommendations???

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

could you post up some pictures of how you made your doors ? and how did you cross the 2 way ? have you tried playing with the righthand kick/mid out of phase ?

quite possibly you're lacking output because the kick/mids are not playing at full potential .

I didn't take any pictures, but when I remove them the next time I will post. I am using the crappy crossover that comes with the type-r, I use the T/A to center the the out the sound. I use the parametric EQ to level out anomaly's.

The type-r's aren't very efficent.

[///M5 2,833]

What wasn't clear?

HA HA speaker recommendations???

Was waiting to try and understand your definition of loud.