4th order bandpass enclosure (fi Q 12")

[lyons238 0]

He didn't say "not bad" I just worded it that way my bad lol. He told me it would work well and he wouldn't tell me to build one of he thought it wouldn't be good.

Also I'm just repeating what Iv read apparently a 4th order can increase output as long as the ratio is over 2:1 and especially with a blow through. Is this wrong information?

[///M5 2,833]

You should stop repeating what you've read. I think it is all wrong.

You left out one key bit of information in your comment though, output is one aspect of the equation the other is frequency response. Anyone who references one without the other has no idea what they are talking about.

[lyons238 0]

You should stop repeating what you've read. I think it is all wrong.

You left out one key bit of information in your comment though, output is one aspect of the equation the other is frequency response. Anyone who references one without the other has no idea what they are talking about.

Anything above 2:1 should be similar or more output within that band obviously the higher the ratio the more output but less bandwidth.

Scott told me I should be able to find a happy medium with a decent bandwidth and slightly more output than a ported enclosure especially compared to seats closed and blow through.

He recommended I try around 2.5:1 based on what I told him. He said I'd have to model to workout the exact volumes and ratio and tuning to see what band with and output would work best for me. But he seems a lot more confident that I can make something that will satisfy my needs over a ported enclosure.

But it seems you don't agree with that?

[///M5 2,833]

Just go ahead and do what you want to do. Should have been obvious when you were mixing the Neo Pro & ID in your "fronts" that you were way to predisposed to actually listen.

[lyons238 0]

Just go ahead and do what you want to do. Should have been obvious when you were mixing the Neo Pro & ID in your "fronts" that you were way to predisposed to actually listen.

Fair enough. Not trying to come off that way. I'm just confused as to why the manufacturer seems to think that it should work well granted it will take some solid planning.

Also I think you misunderstood the neo pros are going in the back of the car for the rear speakers not up front with the IDs. Is that where the misconception was? So I'm not that worried about the Neo pros they're just for rear fill/some added mid bass (which they are apparently a little better in car doors than some other mids) I plan to blend the neo pros in. A friend has two neo pros in the rear and focals up front I'm not sure which model but I believe they were a little more pricey than the IDs. And I thought his sounded pretty good. He did say he had to roll off and tune the gain on the neo pros to find a balance but it sounded pretty damn good to me.

Maybe I'm not as much of a SQ guy as some? However I have a couple of hack buddies with subs in a prefab box and stuff like that and it sounds garbage to me. So I'm a strong believer in its less about the gear and more about the install and tuning.

Do you really think with my gear that it's just a total wash? That's why I was saying you sounded negative before. I'm not as experienced as you but I'm also not an idiot. I was just looking for some thoughts and some help designing an enclosure.

I do appreciate the responses though, so thank you

Edited February 6, 2015 by lyons238

[///M5 2,833]

Any mid in the rear is a terrible idea, but if you design a box that has a limited bandwidth that is silly as well.

The manufacturer is telling you what he knows based on what he tells you and yes part of that is to make you happy. You haven't really laid out enough information for anyone to truly say how things will fit. The equipment you have pulled together is a bit of a hot mess which is further confusing things. From Scott's perspective he hears "pro audio blah blah" extra mids, trunk car and says yep, ok BP will work fine. Fully expecting that you are far from a discerning listener.

In general 4th orders have only 1 potential benefit. That is the box is remote. The rest is a wash and normally that wash is full of negatives. You are ignorning those.

One bit of fact that shows how confused your reality is.

Also I think you misunderstood the neo pros are going in the back of the car for the rear speakers not up front with the IDs. Is that where the misconception was? So I'm not that worried about the Neo pros they're just for rear fill/some added mid bass (which they are apparently a little better in car doors than some other mids) I plan to blend the neo pros in.

1) I understood very well. Just find it idiotic to put part of the front stage in the rear. Matters are made worse when you are trying to have an itty bitty mid play what a sub could in a MUCH easier fashion.

2) The Neo Pro's are not better at midbass than "some other" mids. They suck at it in fact. Whomever confused you on that one knows nothing about audio or is selling the product or worse both.

3) Blend them in, good fucking luck. Having point sources all over a car makes blending SUPER hard and you are going to need serious patience and processing power to do so. I'd bet cash there is no way you will get it to work.

In general, you are forgetting the KISS principle and the net result will be a system that is "fancier" and sounds WAY worse because of it.

[lyons238 0]

Any mid in the rear is a terrible idea, but if you design a box that has a limited bandwidth that is silly as well.

The manufacturer is telling you what he knows based on what he tells you and yes part of that is to make you happy. You haven't really laid out enough information for anyone to truly say how things will fit. The equipment you have pulled together is a bit of a hot mess which is further confusing things. From Scott's perspective he hears "pro audio blah blah" extra mids, trunk car and says yep, ok BP will work fine. Fully expecting that you are far from a discerning listener.

In general 4th orders have only 1 potential benefit. That is the box is remote. The rest is a wash and normally that wash is full of negatives. You are ignorning those.

One bit of fact that shows how confused your reality is.

Also I think you misunderstood the neo pros are going in the back of the car for the rear speakers not up front with the IDs. Is that where the misconception was? So I'm not that worried about the Neo pros they're just for rear fill/some added mid bass (which they are apparently a little better in car doors than some other mids) I plan to blend the neo pros in.

1) I understood very well. Just find it idiotic to put part of the front stage in the rear. Matters are made worse when you are trying to have an itty bitty mid play what a sub could in a MUCH easier fashion.

2) The Neo Pro's are not better at midbass than "some other" mids. They suck at it in fact. Whomever confused you on that one knows nothing about audio or is selling the product or worse both.

3) Blend them in, good pucking luck. Having point sources all over a car makes blending SUPER hard and you are going to need serious patience and processing power to do so. I'd bet cash there is no way you will get it to work.

In general, you are forgetting the KISS principle and the net result will be a system that is "fancier" and sounds WAY worse because of it.

Even if that is the case it won't be a huge deal to replace the rear speakers with some IDs if need be. That's not a bf concern to me.

I'm really more concerned with the sub enclosure. And whether or not I can get a 4th order designed to meet my output and bandwidth needs.

And I don't think Scott is buttering me up. I asked him a number of questions and he stated that he would never recommend a bandpass to someone if the fi q wouldn't work well. He simply said if I can spend some time designing a proper 4th order and work on the ratio, tuning, volumes, and port specs and compare them to a modeled regular ported box with the specs I would use for that then I should be able to achieve what I'm looking for.

He said he's built a number of bandpass boxes and some can be quite good with SQ but they tend to have a bit less output being the 1-2:1 range. He said based on what I told him he said start with 2.5:1 and try modeling different ratios and parameters either way and settle where the output is where I want compared to the ported and th bandwidth is acceptable. Everything I have read and what Scott has told me leads me to believe this is a pretty good option as long as I model and design well.

But this is running in circles. I guess unless someone can help me with the actual modeling and comparing each type of box for $$ via PayPal or answer any of my original questions that still apply then we are done here.

My final decision will be based off the modeling. Will winisd work well for this or bass box pro?

[///M5 2,833]

Even if that is the case it won't be a huge deal to replace the rear speakers with some IDs if need be. That's not a bf concern to me.

What makes you think ID's would be an upgrade? In particular in the rear. Anything in the rear is a fucking waste.

I'm really more concerned with the sub enclosure. And whether or not I can get a 4th order designed to meet my output and bandwidth needs.

I'm betting YOU can't. Seriously focus on understanding what we've told you.

But this is running in circles. I guess unless someone can help me with the actual modeling and comparing each type of box for $$ via PayPal or answer any of my original questions that still apply then we are done here.

My final decision will be based off the modeling. Will winisd work well for this or bass box pro?

I ignored the part you wrote about Scott since we've addressed that. You aren't sharing real information so don't expect real advice.

As for the modeling and paying someone, you aren't getting it. You can't pay someone. How will they know what compromises YOU want. It isn't cut and dry EVERYTHING is a compromise. By asking to pay someone you are asking to not learn. This will end up in the BP box being a monstrous waste. If you truly cannot model it yourself and make a logical decision then most definitely the standard ported box will serve you better. Like WAY FUCKING BETTER.

So please, stop being stubborn and start trying to learn how to make the decision yourself and ask questions based on what you learn. Not e-gurgitating some garbage you read on some forum filled with obvious dipshits. Seriously, anywhere that would even think that putting Neo PRo's in the rear is a good idea is not a place that you can take anything you've "learned" there as reality. Forget it all!

If you come back with more, "let me pay you" or other questions showing you again aren't listening to the feedback you've received I'll stop posting and let you waste your money. Pretty sure the rest of the forum felt that way about 2 pages ago...

[ssh 924]

Download WinISD, load up the driver's T/S specs, and start playing with 4th order BP AND ported alignments.

 

What you want should become very clear.

[lyons238 0]

I tried winisd but I can't get t to work there's a consistency errors and I tried to follow m5's advice to no avail. That's why I offered to pay for a design.

Honestly m5 don't post here anymore. You just come off as a prick. I'll get everything sorted like I always do I'm more than capable. If I can teach myself how to produce music in Logic Pro and other daws I can teach myself to make a good bandpass 4th order.

This is my first ever look into bandpass boxes so get off your high horse.

@shh

Thanks man I'll try winisd again but like I said it keeps giving me a consistency check error and I can't get around t no matter how I enter the numbers. Maybe j should try and get my hands on bbp?

[altoncustomtech 773]

Look at the HELP topics in WinISD under entering new driver data.  There is a specific order in which all the T/S parameters have to be entered in order for everything to calculate correctly.  Follow that and you'll be golden with most drivers.  The only ones I've not been able to enter following the provided directions were cheap or sketchy ones that had provided T/S specs that must have plain and simply been wrong.  Also, watch out on the units, such as square centimeters vs. square millimeters for the Sd (cone area) as an example.  If the default measurement unit doesn't match the manufacturers specs just click on the unit itself and it will cycle through the different available units for that parameter.  Like anything else, it will take a few trips through the software to get used to how it works.

 

 

As for M5, yeah he may come off a little prickish but that doesn't make anything he's been trying to get across to you any less correct.

 

 

Have fun with it and when you're really ready to listen and learn we'll still be here to help.

[lyons238 0]

Look at the HELP topics in WinISD under entering new driver data. There is a specific order in which all the T/S parameters have to be entered in order for everything to calculate correctly. Follow that and you'll be golden with most drivers. The only ones I've not been able to enter following the provided directions were cheap or sketchy ones that had provided T/S specs that must have plain and simply been wrong. Also, watch out on the units, such as square centimeters vs. square millimeters for the Sd (cone area) as an example. If the default measurement unit doesn't match the manufacturers specs just click on the unit itself and it will cycle through the different available units for that parameter. Like anything else, it will take a few trips through the software to get used to how it works.

As for M5, yeah he may come off a little prickish but that doesn't make anything he's been trying to get across to you any less correct.

Have fun with it and when you're really ready to listen and learn we'll still be here to help.

Thank you man I appreciate that. And I can get down with everything you said. I appreciate the supportive words and honesty.

Once I get some modeling happening I'll take some screenshots and you can give me your opinion on which box would be best for me. and maybe I can get some links or methods to figure out the effects of a sedan listening environment? This way I'll have some actual data for some actual advice

Edit: it says *help files cannot be found* any idea where those files are lol?

Edited February 7, 2015 by lyons238

[///M5 2,833]

To further my prickishnish perhaps it is perception. ie, if you post things that sound idiotic how should the response be?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+enter+driver+data+into+winisd

And the first three.

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/2010/06/winisd-entering-new-driver-data.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/148729-how-correctly-use-winisd.html

[ssh 924]

 

Look at the HELP topics in WinISD under entering new driver data. There is a specific order in which all the T/S parameters have to be entered in order for everything to calculate correctly. Follow that and you'll be golden with most drivers. The only ones I've not been able to enter following the provided directions were cheap or sketchy ones that had provided T/S specs that must have plain and simply been wrong. Also, watch out on the units, such as square centimeters vs. square millimeters for the Sd (cone area) as an example. If the default measurement unit doesn't match the manufacturers specs just click on the unit itself and it will cycle through the different available units for that parameter. Like anything else, it will take a few trips through the software to get used to how it works.

As for M5, yeah he may come off a little prickish but that doesn't make anything he's been trying to get across to you any less correct.

Have fun with it and when you're really ready to listen and learn we'll still be here to help.

Thank you man I appreciate that. And I can get down with everything you said. I appreciate the supportive words and honesty.

Once I get some modeling happening I'll take some screenshots and you can give me your opinion on which box would be best for me. and maybe I can get some links or methods to figure out the effects of a sedan listening environment? This way I'll have some actual data for some actual advice

Edit: it says *help files cannot be found* any idea where those files are lol?

 

Not going to happen. All you can expect is a gain in output in the lower bandwidth, but the exact effect on response is going to vary from one vehicle and installation to another.

 

E.g. If I throw a box in my car and run a sweep from 20 - 80hz and record the dB level at each frequency, then do the same outside the car, and subtract the spectra than I'd end up with the cabin's effect on response, but it couldn't be applied to another vehicle.

 

If you did the above for a bunch of different vehicles than you might find some general trend, but it'll likely amount to my original advice: gain in output on bottom end.

[lyons238 0]

 

 

Look at the HELP topics in WinISD under entering new driver data. There is a specific order in which all the T/S parameters have to be entered in order for everything to calculate correctly. Follow that and you'll be golden with most drivers. The only ones I've not been able to enter following the provided directions were cheap or sketchy ones that had provided T/S specs that must have plain and simply been wrong. Also, watch out on the units, such as square centimeters vs. square millimeters for the Sd (cone area) as an example. If the default measurement unit doesn't match the manufacturers specs just click on the unit itself and it will cycle through the different available units for that parameter. Like anything else, it will take a few trips through the software to get used to how it works.

As for M5, yeah he may come off a little prickish but that doesn't make anything he's been trying to get across to you any less correct.

Have fun with it and when you're really ready to listen and learn we'll still be here to help.

Thank you man I appreciate that. And I can get down with everything you said. I appreciate the supportive words and honesty.

Once I get some modeling happening I'll take some screenshots and you can give me your opinion on which box would be best for me. and maybe I can get some links or methods to figure out the effects of a sedan listening environment? This way I'll have some actual data for some actual advice

Edit: it says *help files cannot be found* any idea where those files are lol?

 

Not going to happen. All you can expect is a gain in output in the lower bandwidth, but the exact effect on response is going to vary from one vehicle and installation to another.

 

E.g. If I throw a box in my car and run a sweep from 20 - 80hz and record the dB level at each frequency, then do the same outside the car, and subtract the spectra than I'd end up with the cabin's effect on response, but it couldn't be applied to another vehicle.

 

If you did the above for a bunch of different vehicles than you might find some general trend, but it'll likely amount to my original advice: gain in output on bottom end.

 

ok fair enough, thanks for clearing that up.

 

since you are somewhat familiar with cars i do have a question. would it be a bad idea to cut a 6" hole in the sheet metal thats underneath the rear deck? i wasn't sure if this sheet metal acted as a torsion brace sort of like an upper rear strut brace or a brace if hit from the side. hopefully someone can clear that up for me.