Mobile 5.1?

[blkonblk98 0]

I have been looking at 5.1 options. Some questions I have:

1) I would like to be able to control the processor through the HU. I read that the Alpine W205 can control the H701 although it doesn't say that on the website. I had intended to get an AVIC-D3 but that doesn't seem to have any control over the pioneer processor. What are the best options here?

2) Looking around I notice that the 5 channels are always equal power. Is this the correct way to set up a 5.1 system or is it ok to vary the power to different speakers?

3) Assuming that all speakers SHOULD have equal power, where on earth do you find quality component/coaxial speakers that will preform well on 50w?

4) Is the Alipne MRA-D550 equal to the H701 with an added amp?

Edited December 1, 2007 by BLACKonBLACK98

[tommy 0]

off topic but why?

[blkonblk98 0]

off topic but why?

show car build.

[sqguy 0]

A far as speakers I find a lot of lower wattage ones that sound good compared to higher wattage, but that is limited funds I would spend on my daily driver. Most reasonable brand names can sound good, say boston, alpine, infinity, etc., depending on sound you like like (more/less tweeter, etc). The lower wattage tend to be more efficient in my experience, so they put out nice on reasonable wattage. I run them all the time, but sometimes the blow too.

[helotaxi 46]

Plenty of speakers do great on that amount of power. Even speakers rated to handle much more will do well on that amount of power. Sound deadening becomes your best friend at that point. Another thing that you could consider is to use a couple of the xtant full range Class D mono amps to run the whole thing. That will give you around 100w per channel.

[///M5 2,833]

Man having the active capabilities of the H701 and then using it for 5 chn audio

[helotaxi 46]

Different strokes...but I'm with you.

[///M5 2,833]

And I do apologize for thread dumping, but show or no I really don't understand and felt the need to say that. Indeed if it floats your boat fine.

[blkonblk98 0]

i'm not going to use the h701, i'll be using the alpine mra-f350 which i was told has a digital sound precessor that you can control with the w205. i'm not 100% about the 5.1 thing either but it really seems to fit the build i'm doing. it's an easy way to do something cool and different, and has actually simplified my system and saved me money. i'm just making sure i don't have too much invested into it in case i want to dump the 5.1 and go conventional.

[dem beats 1,223]

i'm not going to use the h701, i'll be using the alpine mra-f350 which i was told has a digital sound precessor that you can control with the w205. i'm not 100% about the 5.1 thing either but it really seems to fit the build i'm doing. it's an easy way to do something cool and different, and has actually simplified my system and saved me money. i'm just making sure i don't have too much invested into it in case i want to dump the 5.1 and go conventional.

I'm new but listen to the other guys who have more experience.

5.1 = not good.

I'm not educated enough to know why, but it just doesn't work well. Save that kind of bodaciousness for the HT at home. 2.1 FTW every time in a car. I don't even think I will have rear door speakers in my SUV, just fronts and subs. I'm almost 100% sure if I take my time and do it right it will sound better.

Cramming more speaks in that area just doesn't work, and you will never have the same quality imaging.

[blkonblk98 0]

a 2/4.1 will definitely sound better, but thats not what i'm after. i'm looking to do something as a part of an entire car build, something that flows with the style of the car. a simple 5.1 system will do that. some people like sq, some like spl. you're not going to tell the other side don't do that cause it won't have good clarity or don't do that because it won't be loud enough. theres no point in comparing a 5.1 system to a 2/4.1 because they are built for different purposes. if i can get decent sound and have this cool little feature that makes my car just a little different than everybody else then i'm happy. if i can't get decent sound then everything will come out and i will do something else.

Edited December 5, 2007 by BLACKonBLACK98

[sqguy 0]

Yeah everyone tells me rear fill is the worst, but in 20+ years of car audio I always enjoy listening to it with rear fill better. What I don't like is center speakers, except for voices in a movie. I don't want to go back to the days of monorail. If you are putting video in with 5.1, that is cool. The challenge to me would be to make it sound good on music as well. If you could program two setups with output levels and eq, that would make it much easier. I'm not enough into that to know how that could be done well.

[dbphelps 0]

BLACKonBLACK98, don't let all of these nay-sayers disuade you from what you want, as most (if not all) of them OBVIOUSLY have never heard a *GOOD* 5.1 setup in a car...

My setup is as follows:

(Mind you, the car is fully sounddeadened with not only mat but also a 1/4" closed cell foam top-layer)

In dash:

IVA-D900 DVD headunit

HDA-5460 MP3 headunit (slaves to the D900)

RUX-C700 controller

SEA-8081 Alarm Brain

In back:

NVE-N852a DVD Navigation unit

IVA-D900 Brain unit

PXA-H701 processor

TUE-T020XM XM Tuner

SEC-8205 Alarm Pager unit

4x ESX-BLD1 balanced line drivers

ESX Quantum Q120.4 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q275.2 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q475.1 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q175.2 Amplifier

Subs:

2x 12" TC-Sound TC2+ subs in sealed enclosure, 1000 watts for the pair

Sub box in the hatch

Front Stage:

2x Seas Neo Al Tweeters in A-pillars - Actively crossed over, 150 watts per

2x CDT M6 midbass drivers in front doors - Actively crossed over, 350 watts per

Center Channel:

2x Seas Neo Al Tweeters w/2x CDT HD-4 Mids passively crossed over, 150 watts per pair (300 watts total, 4 drivers, 2 crossovers)

Mounted inside the cowl under the windshield

Rear Fill/Surround:

2x CDT TW-25 Silk Tweeters w/2x CDT HD-6 Midbasses passively crossed over, 225 watts per pair

Mounted in the rear sidepanels

As I outlined, only the front stage (FL/FR) is active, the remainder (C/RL/RR) is passive (outside of high-pass filters for bass filtering as needed) and the subs obviously are active as well (with both low-pass and subsonic filtering)...

I can say that it sound OUTSTANDING with the fronts/rears in stereo and the center channel using the built-in H701 steering to derive the center channel. The key here being that the center channel is a REAL center, not a simple 4" mid and tweeter, but dual 4" mids and dual tweeters run with almost as much power as the front l/r get... Now the center channel uses a bit of a higher cutoff compared to the front midbasses, but it definitly offers solid up-front midbass reinforcement, adds to the presence of the system and definitly helps fcus the soundstage and adds depth to it as well...

I think far too many people are stuck on the 'audiophile' idealism without even understanding it at all... There is a reason 5.1, 6.1 and even 7.1 technologies are taking hold and it equates to maximizing sound within a spacial field, which in a car is far from ideal, thus lends itself WELL to multi-channel audio technologies... Hell, most homes sound better with a mutli-channel sound system compared to 'pure stereo' due to the fact taht we all have to live in a compromised space and most 'audiophiles' with deep pockets actually 'build' rooms because they have the means with the ability to maximize stereo audio to the nth degree...

I personally feel that most audio systems are probably not built with the proper direction, budget or equipment to pull of a 'good sounding' 5.1 or more audio experience, but if planned out, designed properly and installed well, there is no reason a 5.1 system can't sound as good, and usually can most definitley sound better, than a 'stereo' setup...

Now, all sound is subjective, but if you really want a good 5.1 setup, go for it... I believe I know of the amp you are referring to, it has the 'majority' of a H701 built into it and only interfaces to certain headunits the can control all of it's functions and basically all you need to do is slave a sub amp off of it and you have a complete 5.1 setup with everything but the option to add an active front stage compared to the H701...

With good sounddeadening and proper setup, crossover point setting and EQ'ing you should be able to make a 'simple' two-amp 5.1 setup sound phenomenol...

If you are interested I could post some pictures of the setup during installation and of the finished product... All of this is installed in a 1995 Pontiac Trans-Am with over 1000hp available, which means built motor, supercharged, etc... Basically the entire car was built up to the 'super-car' ideal, with the only 'stock' part left in it is the transmission...

[blkonblk98 0]

from what i understand from a guy i talked to that had the f350 and now has the 701 is that you can adjust it to stereo for music.

[dbphelps 0]

from what i understand from a guy i talked to that had the f350 and now has the 701 is that you can adjust it to stereo for music.

Yes, you can turn off any/all outputs at will, as well as choosing various different decoding modes (such as Dolby Digital/Rear-Fill/Prologic II Movie/Music, etc...)

[blkonblk98 0]

BLACKonBLACK98, don't let all of these nay-sayers disuade you from what you want, as most (if not all) of them OBVIOUSLY have never heard a *GOOD* 5.1 setup in a car...

My setup is as follows:

(Mind you, the car is fully sounddeadened with not only mat but also a 1/4" closed cell foam top-layer)

In dash:

IVA-D900 DVD headunit

HDA-5460 MP3 headunit (slaves to the D900)

RUX-C700 controller

SEA-8081 Alarm Brain

In back:

NVE-N852a DVD Navigation unit

IVA-D900 Brain unit

PXA-H701 processor

TUE-T020XM XM Tuner

SEC-8205 Alarm Pager unit

4x ESX-BLD1 balanced line drivers

ESX Quantum Q120.4 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q275.2 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q475.1 Amplifier

ESX Quantum Q175.2 Amplifier

Subs:

2x 12" TC-Sound TC2+ subs in sealed enclosure, 1000 watts for the pair

Sub box in the hatch

Front Stage:

2x Seas Neo Al Tweeters in A-pillars - Actively crossed over, 150 watts per

2x CDT M6 midbass drivers in front doors - Actively crossed over, 350 watts per

Center Channel:

2x Seas Neo Al Tweeters w/2x CDT HD-4 Mids passively crossed over, 150 watts per pair (300 watts total, 4 drivers, 2 crossovers)

Mounted inside the cowl under the windshield

Rear Fill/Surround:

2x CDT TW-25 Silk Tweeters w/2x CDT HD-6 Midbasses passively crossed over, 225 watts per pair

Mounted in the rear sidepanels

As I outlined, only the front stage (FL/FR) is active, the remainder (C/RL/RR) is passive (outside of high-pass filters for bass filtering as needed) and the subs obviously are active as well (with both low-pass and subsonic filtering)...

I can say that it sound OUTSTANDING with the fronts/rears in stereo and the center channel using the built-in H701 steering to derive the center channel. The key here being that the center channel is a REAL center, not a simple 4" mid and tweeter, but dual 4" mids and dual tweeters run with almost as much power as the front l/r get... Now the center channel uses a bit of a higher cutoff compared to the front midbasses, but it definitly offers solid up-front midbass reinforcement, adds to the presence of the system and definitly helps fcus the soundstage and adds depth to it as well...

I think far too many people are stuck on the 'audiophile' idealism without even understanding it at all... There is a reason 5.1, 6.1 and even 7.1 technologies are taking hold and it equates to maximizing sound within a spacial field, which in a car is far from ideal, thus lends itself WELL to multi-channel audio technologies... Hell, most homes sound better with a mutli-channel sound system compared to 'pure stereo' due to the fact taht we all have to live in a compromised space and most 'audiophiles' with deep pockets actually 'build' rooms because they have the means with the ability to maximize stereo audio to the nth degree...

I personally feel that most audio systems are probably not built with the proper direction, budget or equipment to pull of a 'good sounding' 5.1 or more audio experience, but if planned out, designed properly and installed well, there is no reason a 5.1 system can't sound as good, and usually can most definitley sound better, than a 'stereo' setup...

Now, all sound is subjective, but if you really want a good 5.1 setup, go for it... I believe I know of the amp you are referring to, it has the 'majority' of a H701 built into it and only interfaces to certain headunits the can control all of it's functions and basically all you need to do is slave a sub amp off of it and you have a complete 5.1 setup with everything but the option to add an active front stage compared to the H701...

With good sounddeadening and proper setup, crossover point setting and EQ'ing you should be able to make a 'simple' two-amp 5.1 setup sound phenomenol...

If you are interested I could post some pictures of the setup during installation and of the finished product... All of this is installed in a 1995 Pontiac Trans-Am with over 1000hp available, which means built motor, supercharged, etc... Basically the entire car was built up to the 'super-car' ideal, with the only 'stock' part left in it is the transmission...

awesome post... it's one of only a couple that have been encouraging, and you sound like you know what you are talking about. i don't plan on doing it on the level that you have but i think the idea is the same. i will be using the alpine single din center chanel speaker, which i believe is dual mids with a single tweeter, with the f350 providing 50w x 5. because of the low power i will proably use coaxials (cdt, rainbow, or most likely re) with the understanding that i might need to upgrade down the line (i have a set of cdt hd-62/m6 that i could use). i was also checking out the audison 5.1MT which would be nice if i decide to upgrade, but for now i am just going to do the a simple install. i would definitely like to see pics.

[JimJ 11]

BLACKonBLACK98, don't let all of these nay-sayers disuade you from what you want, as most (if not all) of them OBVIOUSLY have never heard a *GOOD* 5.1 setup in a car...

Eh, no.

[dbphelps 0]

BLACKonBLACK98, don't let all of these nay-sayers disuade you from what you want, as most (if not all) of them OBVIOUSLY have never heard a *GOOD* 5.1 setup in a car...

Eh, no.

Are you saying that you don't like 5.1 setups at all, or that you just have never heard one that is setup properly and sounds good?

[///M5 2,833]

I think far too many people are stuck on the 'audiophile' idealism without even understanding it at all... There is a reason 5.1, 6.1 and even 7.1 technologies are taking hold and it equates to maximizing sound within a spacial field, which in a car is far from ideal, thus lends itself WELL to multi-channel audio technologies... Hell, most homes sound better with a mutli-channel sound system compared to 'pure stereo' due to the fact taht we all have to live in a compromised space and most 'audiophiles' with deep pockets actually 'build' rooms because they have the means with the ability to maximize stereo audio to the nth degree...

I personally feel that most audio systems are probably not built with the proper direction, budget or equipment to pull of a 'good sounding' 5.1 or more audio experience, but if planned out, designed properly and installed well, there is no reason a 5.1 system can't sound as good, and usually can most definitley sound better, than a 'stereo' setup...

Maximizing sound in a spatial field has nothing to do with 5.1 or any other multi-channel setup, not even close. If you buy into the 6.1 and 7.1 I am going to laugh even harder. 99 out of 100 installs in a HOME that have 5.1 sound worse than if the owner would have spent the same budget on 2 channels for not only music but even for movies. The multi-channel thing is a gimic to sell product and you sir have bitten in head over heels. What I would like to hear is how and why you think your 2 channel recording sounds better on multiple channels?

The last bolded sentence is an all out joke, but you will figure out that out when trying to answer my last question.

[sqguy 0]

I would agree somewhat, I think the rears are great for sound effects in movies but don't do much else but maybe add a little depth if content is mixed right. I'm not too hopped up on center channels even for movies, I can't tell the difference if I put the stereo on mono and odds are my big floor speakers sound better than some little mtm. Did I tell you I hate mono? I feel that in a car and less in a house, the stage is too localized in front of me. That is why I like rear fill, so it is not 100% in front of me. It can take some work to make it sound right, usually different drivers F to R work better so the response is not the same. Against the 'rules' but works great for me. In a house the speakers are typically much further apart and sound that way to me....the right rear fill helps reproduce that depth that gets lost in a car. Don't have the time or place now, but I love listening to headphones to me that is pure stereo and what I want to hear in the car/house/boat/anywhere. People say that is too much spatial effect or whatever with headphones, well they can listen to a 9v mono AM pocket radio and be happy, 'cause I wont. Oh wait, they listen to the cell phone speaker now it is the same thing.

However if you concentrate on the front side speakers I would think you could make it work for music, then change the setup for 5.1 theater to have something 'different' in your system. I saw some bass shakers on sale a while back, how about some under the seats? Ok I'll stop there....

[dbphelps 0]

What I would like to hear is how and why you think your 2 channel recording sounds better on multiple channels?

The last bolded sentence is an all out joke, but you will figure out that out when trying to answer my last question.

Actually, because *I* think it does... End of subject, since it is a SUBJECTIVE element...

Stop being a purist as I built *MY* system for *MY* enjoyment... It is built as a (if I *had* to define it) LSQ setup, in that it is clear, dynamic, great staging, great presence, accurate and then, lastly, it can get loud as hell, all while keeping those previous attributes...

And I firmly believe those that say something can't get loud while remaining accurate only say that because they haven't done it yet... You know it is loud when your eardrums hurt but you couldn't even tell it was really 'too loud' while listening to it... Big difference from most 'loud' setups that are just distortion, thus you *think* it is loud because it is distorting, when in reality it is not too loud at all...

And I firmly disagree that you need only 2 channels for good sound... In a given space additional channels can greatly add to the experience, IF DONE PROPERLY...

And to your comment about home theatre setups, realistically if you put as much effort into a multi-channel setup, especially with multi-channel source material, that you would to make a stereo setup sound phenomenol you will end up with a much richer experience... And yes, it all costs quite a bit more to do a multi-channel setup 'right' than to do a stereo setup, so maybe you just haven't spent enough to do it 'right', thus your disappointment is due to being too frugile???

I fuilly agree with sqguyib, that I ALWAYS prefer rear-fill in any car, without exception... it makes the sound fuller and more spacious, but again, only if it is done 'right'...

[sqguy 0]

Well lets not turn this into a bitchfest that produces nothing, there is still the issue of what equipment might work best no matter how you like to tune it in. I like it loud enough to feel the bass and have the highs keep up, anymore is not that useful to me. But I have no idea how loud that is not having a db meter. That's the main reason I like IB subs. B)

[dbphelps 0]

I agree, it was not my intent to start an argument, it is just that FAR too many people feel 'thier way' is the best or *only* way that is 'best'...

This topic was in regards to a 5.1, as can it sound good, is it worthwhile and how can it be done 'properly'... IMHO, I feel I had those same goals, and put the effort and engineering into my own setup, which turned out great, thus I added my point of reference to the mix...

I mean the whole 12 15" sub SPL thing doesn't do a darn thing for me, but I don't try to argue that there is too many subs, or that it sounds like sh*t... Thus I wonder why people with 'stereo from the front is all that matters' ideals are so adament about arguing that point with anyone and everyone...

Hell, good point of reference here, is that most people that like hip-hop prefer the sound as it is in a night club/rave and think the 'audiophile' sound of that music on a reference system tends to sound thin and like ass... Point here being that if you are going to try to be a 'stereo' elitest, you have to balance that by saying which music you prefer on such a system, again with subjectivity being the key point...

Actually, if you have multi-channel source material that was recorded/mastered in say 5.1, it could be argued that to play it on equipment that is only stereo is basically missing out on a large portion of the original material (as is argued that people like stereo and not mono, but if the source was mono, then you using too many channels to listen to it)...

[helotaxi 46]

Actually, if you have multi-channel source material that was recorded/mastered in say 5.1, it could be argued that to play it on equipment that is only stereo is basically missing out on a large portion of the original material

That is the only time that 5.1 will be more accurate than stereo. If the source is mixed in more than two channels. Very little music is available so mixed.

[rexbox 0]

NORMAL cds sound best on a 2.1 system

DVDs and DVD audio best on a 5.1 system

Now what I did was build around both worlds sure its not perfect ethier way DVDs sound like azz when played through 2.1 and normal cds the oposite. my system is as follows

panasonic cdq6505u dvd with 5.1 built in allows me to turn off any channels or processes I want

front amp alpine mrf250 4/channel bridged to my fronts 100watts each

front speakers CDT hd 6.5

rear and center amp alpine mrf250 4/channel 2 channels bridged to the center 100watts, and 2 channels stereo to the rears 40watts each

sub amp elemental designs 9.2 bridged to 4ohm 400watts

sub a single 4 ohm sound splinter RL-i8 sealed at .5 cuft

most of the time its cds with just the front speakers and sub running