which setup would have more ouput?

[BassThoughts 0]

yeah i think i'm going down a much better route now. i believe my money will be much better spent on running two Q15's on a sundown 2500. this i think will get me good output while still maintaining a decent musical quality, also it would open up for some play room on the other end of my budget allowing me to get an alternator and a battery instead of having to choose between them. and leaving me plenty of headroom for install materials and any unforseen install issues. thanks again for all your help guys.

ive got the 2000 grand prix gtp since both of our cars are supercharged be careful about what alt and battery you get remember that our motor requires alot of cranking amps to run correctly (mine is the 3800 series 2 motor) you dont want your overdrive to cut in and out when you give it some gas as far as the subs id go with the 4 ssd's over the 15's the 12's will have alot more output and as far as response (15's dont have better response than 12's thats horse sh!t lol) trust me i know your car very well and know what different setups sound like in it ive had 1 12, 2 12's, 3 12's, 1 15, 2 15's and 2 fosgate 18's the bigger speakers have lower bass but most music is produced on a 80hz average anyway go with the 12's lol

The average sub stage is going to be playing ~28hz to 70hz and upwards 80hz. Saying bigger speakers have lower bass is bullshit. The size of the cone does not effect the drivers ability to play one frequency verse another, it does however effect output / loudness of the material being played.

bigger speakers have lower bass because they can play the lower frequencies louder lol thats why for 15's you set your crossover to 50hz and 12's to 80hz and your wrong the average sub will not be playing 28hz to 70 hz that all depends on the sub, size, and enclosure

I said sub stage, referring to the driver and enclosure. I stated 28hz as some like to tune low although most tune around the low 30s. Crossing over is also preference based, some cross at 70ish and others go up to 80. Just depends on the person and the rest of their sound system.

Your statement about different size drivers playing different frequencies louder is completely wrong. I won't argue anymore with you as I'm just beating the shit out of a dead horse and it's not waking up.

lol name one speaker that has an fs of 27hz that isnt bottoming out lol the 18" n2 btl has an fs of 34hz lol if i am some where wrong correct me and prove it so my opinion may be changed in the right directing because i am not getting what you are talking about

[ssh 924]

yeah i think i'm going down a much better route now. i believe my money will be much better spent on running two Q15's on a sundown 2500. this i think will get me good output while still maintaining a decent musical quality, also it would open up for some play room on the other end of my budget allowing me to get an alternator and a battery instead of having to choose between them. and leaving me plenty of headroom for install materials and any unforseen install issues. thanks again for all your help guys.

ive got the 2000 grand prix gtp since both of our cars are supercharged be careful about what alt and battery you get remember that our motor requires alot of cranking amps to run correctly (mine is the 3800 series 2 motor) you dont want your overdrive to cut in and out when you give it some gas as far as the subs id go with the 4 ssd's over the 15's the 12's will have alot more output and as far as response (15's dont have better response than 12's thats horse sh!t lol) trust me i know your car very well and know what different setups sound like in it ive had 1 12, 2 12's, 3 12's, 1 15, 2 15's and 2 fosgate 18's the bigger speakers have lower bass but most music is produced on a 80hz average anyway go with the 12's lol

The average sub stage is going to be playing ~28hz to 70hz and upwards 80hz. Saying bigger speakers have lower bass is bullshit. The size of the cone does not effect the drivers ability to play one frequency verse another, it does however effect output / loudness of the material being played.

bigger speakers have lower bass because they can play the lower frequencies louder lol thats why for 15's you set your crossover to 50hz and 12's to 80hz and your wrong the average sub will not be playing 28hz to 70 hz that all depends on the sub, size, and enclosure

I said sub stage, referring to the driver and enclosure. I stated 28hz as some like to tune low although most tune around the low 30s. Crossing over is also preference based, some cross at 70ish and others go up to 80. Just depends on the person and the rest of their sound system.

Your statement about different size drivers playing different frequencies louder is completely wrong. I won't argue anymore with you as I'm just beating the shit out of a dead horse and it's not waking up.

lol name one speaker that has an fs of 27hz that isnt bottoming out lol the 18" n2 btl has an fs of 34hz lol if i am some where wrong correct me and prove it so my opinion may be changed in the right directing because i am not getting what you are talking about

Fs of a speaker is it's resonant frequency in free air, not in an enclosure. The tuning of the actual enclosure determines the point the driver will start to bottom out.

[///M5 2,833]

yeah i think i'm going down a much better route now. i believe my money will be much better spent on running two Q15's on a sundown 2500. this i think will get me good output while still maintaining a decent musical quality, also it would open up for some play room on the other end of my budget allowing me to get an alternator and a battery instead of having to choose between them. and leaving me plenty of headroom for install materials and any unforseen install issues. thanks again for all your help guys.

ive got the 2000 grand prix gtp since both of our cars are supercharged be careful about what alt and battery you get remember that our motor requires alot of cranking amps to run correctly (mine is the 3800 series 2 motor) you dont want your overdrive to cut in and out when you give it some gas as far as the subs id go with the 4 ssd's over the 15's the 12's will have alot more output and as far as response (15's dont have better response than 12's thats horse sh!t lol) trust me i know your car very well and know what different setups sound like in it ive had 1 12, 2 12's, 3 12's, 1 15, 2 15's and 2 fosgate 18's the bigger speakers have lower bass but most music is produced on a 80hz average anyway go with the 12's lol

The average sub stage is going to be playing ~28hz to 70hz and upwards 80hz. Saying bigger speakers have lower bass is bullshit. The size of the cone does not effect the drivers ability to play one frequency verse another, it does however effect output / loudness of the material being played.

bigger speakers have lower bass because they can play the lower frequencies louder lol thats why for 15's you set your crossover to 50hz and 12's to 80hz and your wrong the average sub will not be playing 28hz to 70 hz that all depends on the sub, size, and enclosure

I said sub stage, referring to the driver and enclosure. I stated 28hz as some like to tune low although most tune around the low 30s. Crossing over is also preference based, some cross at 70ish and others go up to 80. Just depends on the person and the rest of their sound system.

Your statement about different size drivers playing different frequencies louder is completely wrong. I won't argue anymore with you as I'm just beating the shit out of a dead horse and it's not waking up.

lol name one speaker that has an fs of 27hz that isnt bottoming out lol the 18" n2 btl has an fs of 34hz lol if i am some where wrong correct me and prove it so my opinion may be changed in the right directing because i am not getting what you are talking about

Your analogies are terrible and show a heck of a lot of confusion. Size of driver has NOTHING to do with whether it can play low or high notes. Hell half of the drivers you might look at share motors between sizes which means what you get generically from upping the cone size is more cone area. Pretty obvious....

As for a speaker that has an FS of below 27Hz? Tons of them. Try looking at nearly any home audio sub.

You also asked about your goals. There are three links in my signature for noobs. Read them all and then you'll know what you left out.

[Duran 387]

Fs is the frequency at which a certain suspension resonates an anechoic environment, that's very far from in your vehicle.

Fs alone does NOT dictate low frequency response, the enclosure does.

[wafsman 0]

ok i have read up on ///M5's links and hopefully the following information will help you all steer me in the right direction, since i'm still just as confused as when i started.

most all previous setups i have owned have been multi-sub setups. i started with a pair of 12" American Bass VFL's (12 years old according to Bob from American Bass) on a JL 250/1, this is also the setup i am running currently. in between all that i ran a 10" Eclipse on an Orion T300 in addition to the American Bass. also tried a pair of 12" JL W3's on a RF Punch 800.2 in addition to the American Bass. two 12's are not loud enough, but sound decent. two 12's and a 10 wasn't much different, couldn't even really tell the 10 was in there. and four 12's was obviously louder, but still not as loud as i'm looking for and it sounded pretty sloppy. i've only owned sealed boxes.

my budget for the whole system, which i am starting from scratch this time, is 2500. also i am planning to purchase some stuff used, like maybe the subs and amps.

vehicle is a 99 pontiac grand prix gtp.

other products i have heard but not owned, a 99 cougar with a pair of 12" JL W3's and a pair of 10" Kicker CVR's (both sealed) all on a Kicker KX1200.1, had the closest to the output i think i am looking for, same car current setup is a pair of 12" Diamond D6's (ported) on an 1800 watt Visonik, which sounds really good, but still isn't loud enough. an old minivan with two pairs of 12" Audiobahns (sealed) on two 760 watt Pioneers, which was quite loud, but sounded like crap. all the other systems i have heard haven't been anywhere close to the output i'm looking for, people running some small MTX amps and Sony Xplod subs.

musical preferences would be mostly hard rock and metal, i.e. slipknot, mudvayne, three days grace, old korn, rob zombie/white zombie, metallica, disturbed, pantera, marilyn manson, but also juggalo music (not rap music), i.e. insane clown posse, twiztid, boondox, blaze.

my system goals is to be able to hear the full range of music, whereas my system now has parts of songs that like it's being put on mute. and that bone-rattling, eyeball-shaking, take-your-breath-away bass. i am by no means going for an sq setup, i would just like to actually hear all the music that is playing, but at the same token, i am not going for spl setup, as this will never be used in a competition or for burping.

as far as research i have done, i could stare at specs for speakers all day and i still can't figure out what specs i need to get what i'm looking for. i have been on numerous forums (although this is the only i use now) asking questions and searching threads, but unfortunately my ideas usually just seem to spark argument, as you can read earlier in this thread, which i somewhat follow what they are going back and forth about, but in the end i am just as confused as when i started. i have friends that tell me things you guys say are retarded and vice versa. there is just so much info out there it's hard to figure out what's what.

[SubSam 21]

Based on that last post, I would say you may be looking for a couple BtL or BLs. I originally said Q15 as it seems like you have the room for a 7 cubic box you could tune down to 28-30 Hz, which would be very flat from 100Hz down (I have had an 89 grand prix not totally comparable but). That sort of enclosure in a trunk really hits on the high bass and thunders the lows. You can check plenty of YouTube vids of Qs bumpin. If you get a couple 12" BtLs you will get just what you are looking for, the BL is a great woofer too, both have that infamous "saddle-shaped" (compliance) response, still sounds plenty musical all around, with awesome output, especially down lowww

[SubSam 21]

yeah i think i'm going down a much better route now. i believe my money will be much better spent on running two Q15's on a sundown 2500. this i think will get me good output while still maintaining a decent musical quality, also it would open up for some play room on the other end of my budget allowing me to get an alternator and a battery instead of having to choose between them. and leaving me plenty of headroom for install materials and any unforseen install issues. thanks again for all your help guys.

ive got the 2000 grand prix gtp since both of our cars are supercharged be careful about what alt and battery you get remember that our motor requires alot of cranking amps to run correctly (mine is the 3800 series 2 motor) you dont want your overdrive to cut in and out when you give it some gas as far as the subs id go with the 4 ssd's over the 15's the 12's will have alot more output and as far as response (15's dont have better response than 12's thats horse sh!t lol) trust me i know your car very well and know what different setups sound like in it ive had 1 12, 2 12's, 3 12's, 1 15, 2 15's and 2 fosgate 18's the bigger speakers have lower bass but most music is produced on a 80hz average anyway go with the 12's lol

The average sub stage is going to be playing ~28hz to 70hz and upwards 80hz. Saying bigger speakers have lower bass is bullshit. The size of the cone does not effect the drivers ability to play one frequency verse another, it does however effect output / loudness of the material being played.

bigger speakers have lower bass because they can play the lower frequencies louder lol thats why for 15's you set your crossover to 50hz and 12's to 80hz and your wrong the average sub will not be playing 28hz to 70 hz that all depends on the sub, size, and enclosure

I said sub stage, referring to the driver and enclosure. I stated 28hz as some like to tune low although most tune around the low 30s. Crossing over is also preference based, some cross at 70ish and others go up to 80. Just depends on the person and the rest of their sound system.

Your statement about different size drivers playing different frequencies louder is completely wrong. I won't argue anymore with you as I'm just beating the shit out of a dead horse and it's not waking up.

lol name one speaker that has an fs of 27hz that isnt bottoming out lol the 18" n2 btl has an fs of 34hz lol if i am some where wrong correct me and prove it so my opinion may be changed in the right directing because i am not getting what you are talking about

You are right about one thing: YOU AREN'T GETTING IT. Or making sense. You know what a mass-loaded driver even refers to? Know what a pole-vent does?

I've got a half-dozen rockford rfd2212 and 2112s laying around, the fs is 25 for that woofer, and is one of my favorite subs to install, but has no chance in competing with my gen 2 BtL at 28Hz. And neither bottoms out. It's a miracle!

Edited November 30, 2010 by SubSam

[wafsman 0]

thanks for the input, i'm pretty certain that i have decided on a pair of 12" btl's, but i also have a couple more questions though. what does infamous "saddle-shaped" (compliance) response mean? also would it be advisable to run a box that is that much bigger and tuned that much lower (i.e. 7 cu ft and 28 hz) than recommended specs according to the website, or are would the sites specs work better (i.e. 5 cu ft and 32 hz)?

[SubSam 21]

That comes down to personal preference I tend to tune lower than 32 as a rule but anything recommended is a good bet until you decide to experiment a bit. If you tune those 12 BtLs too low you will lose out on the strong upper bass