Opinions on LMS-Ultra 5400 18's vs Nighshade v2 18's on saz450

[nineballsafety84 0]

Greetings,

This is actually my first thread/post on SSA, so first off I would like to say hello and any information that could be provided would be greatly appreciated. I have been a member of the CA.com forum for several years now, but as I have matured I am getting rather tired of the amount of stupid crap you have to sort through to get the information desired.

My plan is to do a typical blow through design in my avalanche as is the norm in this type of vehicle. As a point of reference i will give some of the other equipment I plan on running, and some goals to help with opinions as i hope they start rolling in.

I will be running a saz4500d for the substage (possibly 2 saz2500d's strapped, not fully decided on that yet, but likely the 4500 for purposes of mounting ease). I am going to be running two 18's ported, and have more than enough space in the bed to accommodate almost any enclosure size within reason. Considering both drivers, i see no reason that i would need anything exceeding 18-20 cubes. As far as tuning, i am thinking the 30-34hz range, but again am not totally set on this figure. Port area should be in the 200-300 sq in range, depending on final box size.

I will be running 4 sets of CDT 6.5" components (two in each door), and a set of CDT 4" components in the A pillars... i am fully aware that this will make for "interesting" imaging and sound staging, but am looking to do something new, and am willing to address that hurdle upon install time. Amplification for the mids/highs will be 2 saz200.4s.

So basically I am looking for a overall high output system, however dynamic musicallity and transient response is the main goal. I listen mainly to harder music with recorded drum parts, and the accuracy of the recording is very important to me, as I am a drummer and would like to appreciate the nuances of the drum parts as much as possible (im hoping that having decent 6.5's with ample power will help in the respect, but want to make sure that my substage is fairly accurate and have as much transient response as possible). As far as output goes, i dont think 150's on music is unrealistic by any means, but low to mid 150's would be ideal. Subs will be low passed at roughly 70hz, with the 6.5's highpassed at 60 as to try and smooth out the gap in frequency response.

I will also be running 6 of the stinger 2150 batts, with 2 220A alternators, and big three for sure. And all the power wire necessary to feed the system.

Please advise opinions on which route you think will be suite my goals..

thanks

[nineballsafety84 0]

and just as some food for thought... i also considered the options of the RE XXX, and the xcon.

the reason i pretty much ruled out the XXX was due to cost, not that cost itself is the issue, but i didnt see the net gains of the XXX being worth double the investment, its a cost/results ratio that just didnt make sense to me. I assume i can get the same output and or quality from the LMS or the NS for virtually half the cost.

the Xcon is still somewhat on the table, but i was worried about the power handling of the Xcon not keeping up as well with the other options, I suppose i could consider doing Xcons, and going down to the 3500d... but im not sure that is the route i want to go.

again, any further information or ideas presented will be greatly appreciated.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Welcome to SSA Bro ... I like your screen name ... I use to shoot a mean game of 9-ball myself back in the day ...

Best of luck with your system Bro !!! This should be interesting ...

[edouble101 314]

The LMS-Ultra will be better on music than the NS from numerous reviews.

IMO the LMS-Ultra is in a league of it's own.

Did you check out drivers from T3 and Crossfire?

[nineballsafety84 0]

I used to have a crossfire BMF15 many many years ago... it did ok, but i havent had any experience with them in the recent history... and i was at a local show a couple of weeks ago while i was home on leave from afghanistan, and there was a team that had 3 different T3 vehicles... first time i had ever seen any t3 stuff... they all got decently loud, but of the the t3 stuff i heard the only subs that i found pleasing was the 600... i know this is all very install dependant, but honestly i wasnt all that impressed with t3's stuff.

Edited May 2, 2011 by nineballsafety84

[Duran 387]

If loud is your goal, Nighshade, TC has gone wayyy downhill since selling out and moving production to China.

[nineballsafety84 0]

any advice on whether to run a single 4500 or a pair of 2500's... i really dont think it will matter all that much... im thinking just for the sake of classes, if i ever decide to put it through the lanes, i can be in single amp with the 4500... idk.

I still keep going back to the idea of the xcons and running a 3500 instead... its so hard to make a decision these days LOL... too much very nice equipment. With the install being the key factor in any setup, I'm fairly positive that I can achieve my goals no matter what route i take. Just looking for some insight on people that are a little more familiar with the equipment that i am.

[Deto1992 5]

Zcon?

[nineballsafety84 0]

The Zcon is a fantastic idea... however, it was my understanding that they were still in the testing phase, and have yet to make it to production... maybe I should do a little more homework on that one...

[edouble101 314]

The 4500 is a discontinued model. I am sure you could find one used though. Sundown is designing a new amplifier, the NS1. Power ouput of the NS1 will be more than the 4500.

Crescendo released a new line of amplifiers at a great price. I have two Crescendo amps and I do like them. Crescendo is often compared to Sundown in build quality and components used. The new line of Crescendo uses a different board and build house than what was previously used.

3500wrms would be max power for two XCON. A 4500 would probably be too much for two XCON. SSA is anticipating production of the ZCON line. The ZCON has a 2250wrms rating and is geared more towards high ouput installs. I am very curious how accurate the ZCON will produce music and how the impedence curve will look without a shorting ring incorporated in the design.

I have a XCON 15. I sounds very good and gets decently loud. Very good daily driver imo. I posted a video yesterday, in the video section, of my XCON, check it out. The video doesn't show sound quality or SPL but it does show the XCON beating up my car pretty good.

I am looking for a little more output. I am considering the ZCON, BTL N2 and Sundown Z v.3. The ZCON hasn't been established yet as a truly great driver but a few people do have them and are reaching good scores. The N2 has been around for some time now and has proven itself as a good ground pounder. The Z v.2 has good reviews both SQ and SPL wise but power handling is 1500wrms. I always read great reviews about Sundown products and I do want to try out their product myself. Btw the 18" Z v.3 is going to be nuts, high excursion and high ouput.

[nineballsafety84 0]

that brings up a good point edoub... i have yet to hear any of the Fi stuff since the gen1 BTL was out... i have read many reviews of how loud they get, but no one really seems to really talk about HOW they sound. They only Fi stuff I have ever heard were all gen1 and it was a BL, a Q, and 3 ssd 10's... I really liked the way the Q sounded, but it was severely underpowered in the install that i heard it in, so i had no baseline on output.

I dont want to sound like a brand snob, but something about Fi has always rubbed me the wrong way... mainly because it seems like everyone that buys a BL, or BTL, wants to flat out make the loudest damn thing they can without any regard to HOW it sounds... not really my cup of tea.

If anyone has had any experience with the new N2's and would like to share their thoughts, i would appreciate it.

Sorry, not trying to dance around my initial question, just really trying to find the blend of output vs quality... if it boils down to it, i will just go with less power and do Xcon's. Quality is my primary goal, and am willing to sacrifice some output to attain this. I was just looking for the most musical driver in a ported enclosure on about 2.2K daily. If that is unrealistic, then i will lower my power... no biggy

[chris the man 49]

If loud is your goal, Nighshade, TC has gone wayyy downhill since selling out and moving production to China.

my ultra didnt even last 3 weeks

[nineballsafety84 0]

ouch... that sucks Chris... did they atleast warranty it?

[Argent Audio 54]

If loud is your goal, Nighshade, TC has gone wayyy downhill since selling out and moving production to China.

T.C. still had production issues when they were made in the USA.

But to the OP, the LMS and NS are worlds apart. The LMS truly belongs in a HT set up where bass is meant to be more felt. If your looking for loud go with the NS.

Andrew

[Duran 387]

If loud is your goal, Nighshade, TC has gone wayyy downhill since selling out and moving production to China.

T.C. still had production issues when they were made in the USA.

But to the OP, the LMS and NS are worlds apart. The LMS truly belongs in a HT set up where bass is meant to be more felt. If your looking for loud go with the NS.

Andrew

[chris the man 49]

ouch... that sucks Chris... did they atleast warranty it?

it does man twistedchild had the exact same problem.

they ofcourse did not warranty it.

my option was to send it to china I PAY SHIPPING BOTH WAYS over 300$ at that point

so i sold that bish.

they used to b the ultimate woofer =[

[BigCProductions99 21]

I Can Only Wonder What Thilo Thinks About What His Drivers Have Become... Such A Shame.

[Notorious97200 339]

Op, I had a 15" xcon and now I run a 12" btl. Both ported to 32Hz. A good friend of mine has 2 15" xcon in a small car !

I can tell you the btl N2 is a fantastic driver. I love mine. It is more ..."punchy" than the xcon ! The N2 plays music very well, better than I could imagine ! My friend with the 2 xcons want to try 2 N2 now ! But he doesn't want to sell his xcons !!!

But honnestly, my dream set up would be 2 xcons or 2 btls on a 3500 watts amp. I don't need .

Good luck ! both options are good, but the btls will be louder, and the xcons will play better.

t

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Welcome to SSA, glad you upgraded. In terms of your install, why do you feel you need to run so much power to your subwoofers? Just curious based on your initial post.

The Fi BTL is a freak of a driver, and can have excellent sound in the proper install. The Xcon is also a great choice, but is much more of a finesse driver that has the ability to shred faces if needed. If sheer output is required, go for the BTL.

Now the Zcon is fully prototyped and tested. The design of the Zcon requires an awful lot of steel, with that said, the build house only had enough to do a very small batch of them, until new American steel supplies are replenished. The few production versions that did get out to people, they are surpassing our design and performance requirements.

With all that said, I suggest you nail down what are the real power needs for your install. When you stress accurate reproduction of the sound, and specifically mention a certain source that only is partially covered by the subwoofer, it is a little contradictory with so much power and cone surface, with out a balancing front stage.

[Notorious97200 339]

Well said Denim !

[nineballsafety84 0]

Welcome to SSA, glad you upgraded. In terms of your install, why do you feel you need to run so much power to your subwoofers? Just curious based on your initial post.

The Fi BTL is a freak of a driver, and can have excellent sound in the proper install. The Xcon is also a great choice, but is much more of a finesse driver that has the ability to shred faces if needed. If sheer output is required, go for the BTL.

Now the Zcon is fully prototyped and tested. The design of the Zcon requires an awful lot of steel, with that said, the build house only had enough to do a very small batch of them, until new American steel supplies are replenished. The few production versions that did get out to people, they are surpassing our design and performance requirements.

With all that said, I suggest you nail down what are the real power needs for your install. When you stress accurate reproduction of the sound, and specifically mention a certain source that only is partially covered by the subwoofer, it is a little contradictory with so much power and cone surface, with out a balancing front stage.

thanks Denim, I completely understand where you are coming from... however I dont believe that I have the room, and or budget to make mids/highs that can keep up with that amount of power and Sd, I would love for that to be the case... however, i do have to set some restrictions on myself. Just because I have the money for a $20K, doesnt mean thats what I should do LOL.

I am running 5 sets of 6.5 comps and a set of 4" comps, with 100rms min on each 2way... that is really all that i can alot, but was fairly confident in its ability to keep up.

In all honesty the more i think about it, and in doing some more research here on the forums, i really think that i am going to go with the Xcons, and just lower the power for the substage... makes EVERYTHING easier, smaller amps (easier install), less batts, could maybe stick to one ALT, i think i will likely just go with the Xcons, and focus and enclosure design on a reasonably flat response, with the smallest amount of group delay possible, with a moderately smooth phase shift curve... the only thing i havent quite figured out is impedence rise yet, time to do some math i suppose.

Denim, any chance you would like to give me a starting point on size and tuning freq? I can play with port dimensions and phase alignment after the fact, just not quite sure where to start.