Active Xover/ Speaker advice

[87regal 0]

My substage is complete and now I am looking for some midbass/mid/tweeters. I have never used active crossovers but would like to for this build.

Any suggestions for something that could keep up with (4) 18"s and 8kwrms. It is going in a suburban so I have all four doors available, plus the possibility of a custom center console. I was thinking about making center console enclosure for the midbass, but found out most mid bass speakers are designed for IB. Are there any that would work well in that style of enclosure? Would PA speakers(seen a lot of people using electro-voice) be a bad idea? Any suggestions or links to similar builds would be appreciated.

[Impious 1,476]

Midbass in the center console is a bad idea. Midbass is still stereo. You will want the speakers to the far left and far right, not in the middle of the vehicle. Pro audio speakers are just like any other speaker; some are good and some not so good, implementing them wrong will lead to poor results.

Honestly based on the questions you are asking I'm not sure active is a good choice for you. But, we'll see.

What is your budget?

What is your goal for the stereo?

What do you still need to purchase (i.e. do you have amplifiers/etc already or do you still need everything for the front stage)?

How much modifications are you willing or able to do to the vehicle?

[87regal 0]

Midbass in the center console is a bad idea. Midbass is still stereo. You will want the speakers to the far left and far right, not in the middle of the vehicle. Pro audio speakers are just like any other speaker; some are good and some not so good, implementing them wrong will lead to poor results.

Honestly based on the questions you are asking I'm not sure active is a good choice for you. But, we'll see.

What is your budget?

What is your goal for the stereo?

What do you still need to purchase (i.e. do you have amplifiers/etc already or do you still need everything for the front stage)?

How much modifications are you willing or able to do to the vehicle?

The budget is a few thousand.

Around here there aren't many metered competitions, more like street battles. So it basically gotta be loud as F**K outside the car and keep up with the bass.

I still need everything.

As far as modifications I'm ready for just about anything, getting ready to weld in some roof braces. I'm planing to put everything in painted glassed doors.

The reason I was considering active was I heard it was more efficient and figured that instead of a ton of passive crossovers I would just need a couple of sound processors.....also, what the deal with horns/super tweeters?

Edited June 13, 2011 by 87regal

[Impious 1,476]

HLCD (horn loaded compression drivers) are vastly superior to "Super tweeters" or "Bullet tweeters" in every regard, with the exception of cost. Much better bandwidth, much better dispersion patten, much better overall performance characteristics. Why all of the SPL types use super tweeters is beyond me, other than the fact you can get super tweeters for $40 a pop at places like partsexpress whereas a good set of car audio oriented HLCDs are anywhere from $200 used to $700 new.

The reason both types of speakers are used is because of their efficiency. Most have a sensitivity of 105db or more, which means they get very loud with not a whole lot of power. The average HLCD, for example, can get loud enough to literally deafen you with about 50w of input if you sat in the car for any extended period of time. At average listening levels (average to most people, not to you SPL types ), you'll be using less than a watt to power them.

If I were doing a loud SPL type install where they primary goal was loud clear output, I would do a set of horns under the dash and the largest mids I could physically fit in the front doors or kickpanels, ideally 10"-12" assuming they had the ideal response. Good thing about horns is the upper end models can handle an xover point as low as 800hz, so the mid doesn't need to extend up very high (relatively speaking). A lot of high quality 10"-12" pro audio mids will handle an 800hz crossover point. Properly tuned and installed, this type of setup would not only be able to get deafeningly loud but also sound incredibly good at lower more "normal" listening levels. With this type of setup you wouldn't need anything in the rear doors unless you wanted them just for showing off at shows. Processing and tuning would be crucial though.

A lot of the SPL'ers go crazy with a bunch of super tweeters and a dozen mids. Sure, it might look interesting when showing off but acoustically it makes zero sense.

[87regal 0]

HLCD (horn loaded compression drivers) are vastly superior to "Super tweeters" or "Bullet tweeters" in every regard, with the exception of cost. Much better bandwidth, much better dispersion patten, much better overall performance characteristics. Why all of the SPL types use super tweeters is beyond me, other than the fact you can get super tweeters for $40 a pop at places like partsexpress whereas a good set of car audio oriented HLCDs are anywhere from $200 used to $700 new.

The reason both types of speakers are used is because of their efficiency. Most have a sensitivity of 105db or more, which means they get very loud with not a whole lot of power. The average HLCD, for example, can get loud enough to literally deafen you with about 50w of input if you sat in the car for any extended period of time. At average listening levels (average to most people, not to you SPL types ), you'll be using less than a watt to power them.

If I were doing a loud SPL type install where they primary goal was loud clear output, I would do a set of horns under the dash and the largest mids I could physically fit in the front doors or kickpanels, ideally 10"-12" assuming they had the ideal response. Good thing about horns is the upper end models can handle an xover point as low as 800hz, so the mid doesn't need to extend up very high (relatively speaking). A lot of high quality 10"-12" pro audio mids will handle an 800hz crossover point. Properly tuned and installed, this type of setup would not only be able to get deafeningly loud but also sound incredibly good at lower more "normal" listening levels. With this type of setup you wouldn't need anything in the rear doors unless you wanted them just for showing off at shows. Processing and tuning would be crucial though.

A lot of the SPL'ers go crazy with a bunch of super tweeters and a dozen mids. Sure, it might look interesting when showing off but acoustically it makes zero sense.

First of thanks for the response

What you described sounds perfect. So there is no need for separate mid-bass and mid-range? Is there anything in particular(parameters?) I should look for In a mid?

Does it sound like active would be ideal for this setup? If so, what would be the best way of doing this? Separate 4 channel amps for horns/mids? I was at a bass competition today and someone recommended mDSP(i think it was "m", may be mistaken) brand which are tuned on a computer via USB, any info on these as I can't find anything on google.

EDIT: how about something like this http://www.woofersetc.com/p-10040-image-dynamics-cd-pro-full-size-compression-horns.aspx

not many specs listed, and ID site is down.

Edited June 13, 2011 by 87regal

[Impious 1,476]

So there is no need for separate mid-bass and mid-range?

No, a full size HLCD can typically play down to 800hz or so. Finding a mid to play up to 800hz and down to the subs shouldn't be problem. So you'll just need the horns and one set of mids.

Is there anything in particular(parameters?) I should look for In a mid?

Well, a couple things. For one you would need to make sure it extends high enough cleanly to mate with the horn. Second, when looking at T/S specs don't get caught up entirely on efficiency. There are trade-offs involved. You would want to look for something with a reasonable Fs, Qts, Vas and Xmax. If you find something with too high of an Fs, too low of a Qts, and too large of a Vas (for your space) you're going to end up with a driver that, in car door, is going to end up being -10db down @ 80hz......but the sensitivity will look outstanding. So it needs to be a trade-off between a useable Fs/Qts/Vas and sensitivity.

I hate recommending this as I know absolutely nothing about them; but you might talk to Sundown about the 10" mids they just released. The reason I hate to recommend it is because I know literally nothing about them performance wise and I despise recommending something I know absolutely nothing about.....but in this instance it may be something for you to research as Jacob claims these are basically the types of installs he designed them for.

Does it sound like active would be ideal for this setup?

For that type of setup it would be the only way to do it.

If so, what would be the best way of doing this? Separate 4 channel amps for horns/mids?

I would honestly look at two separate amps due to the different power requirements. I would do a smaller ~100 watt per channel @ 4ohm 2-channel amp for the horns (since they are 8ohm, that's around 50w to the horns) and then the most power you can find for the mids. Personally I'm a power freak, so I would look for something that can support ~600w minimum per channel @ 4ohm which would give you around 300w @ 8ohm as most pro audio style are 8ohm (most likely scenario is either bridging a high powered 4-channel amp down to two channels, or two separate 2-channel amps with one bridged to each mid).

If you wanted a 1-amp solution, the Zed Leviathan would be darn near perfect.

I was at a bass competition today and someone recommended mDSP(i think it was "m", may be mistaken) brand which are tuned on a computer via USB, any info on these as I can't find anything on google.

Probably talking about the MiniDSP. It's a cool little piece for sure, but it's not nearly as plug-n-play as specifically designed car audio processors. There is a lot of talk about them on DIYMA, here's a review thread on the MiniDSP. I don't know a ton about all of it's kinks; you may need 2 of the 4-channels if you want to include your subs in the processing since the processor is only 4-channel output (and the 8-channel model has some drawbacks compared to just using two 4-channels). By the time you get either two 4-channels or the 8-channel plus all of the necessary hardware, you are up in the same price range as used car-audio specific processors. I'm not sure if there's a time lag in the processing, so you might be required to run the subs through the same processor to keep everything in-sync.....but that might be addressed either on the site or in the review thread.

EDIT: how about something like this http://www.wooferset...sion-horns.aspx

not many specs listed, and ID site is down.

LOL.....ID's site is a long story. Those look like the CD1Pro's.....good horns, would work for your goals more than likely. The next model up are the CD2's which can be found used for less. IIRC the CD1's extended a little better on the top end but the CD2's were a little more sensitive and had a little better sounding midrange but didn't do as good above 15khz. The newer CD Ultra's are supposed to be a good mix of the two but pricier since they are newer. Stay away from any CD1e unless they are the new v3 version. The v1 & v2 versions of the CD1e were piezo drivers; not as sensitive, not nearly as good sounding.

Or if you wanted you could cook your own. Find a used set of the full size bodies and then buy your own compression drivers. The CD2 Neo's were basically B&C DE500 compression drivers, which you can buy from partsexpress. Radian, B&C and BMS all make good drivers you could mate with the full size horn bodies.

I'll say it again though. Tuning this setup is going to require some knowledge and a decent ear. If you don't feel you have the capabiltiies then pursue a different route. A few passive component sets stand a better chance at sounding good than a poorly setup and tuned extreme system. Implementation and tuning is going to make or break the end result.

[87regal 0]

What you described is more or less what I was picturing. The SA NEO-PROs(I read the reviews, look very nice) , HLCDs, and seperate 2channel/4channel amps. I just skimmed through the miniDSP review. It does look somewhat overwhelming as I do not have much experience with tuning, but I'm ready to learn so I will not rule that out just yet. If I did go passive would it need to be a custom built crossover? and thanks for the info on the horn bodies, I'm going to look into it.

[Impious 1,476]

Yes, passives would have to be custom designed and built which, to do properly, would be a MUCH larger pain-in-the-ass than using an active crossover.

Active is about the only sensible way to go if you went with that driver selection.

[Julian 641]

Wouldn't an excellent processor like the Ms-8 make active a bit easier?

[Impious 1,476]

Rumor I've heard is that not all horn users have experienced optimized results with the MS-8. According to some of the rumors I've read, Andy Wehmeyer (of JBL) indicated that this isn't surprising as the MS8 wasn't as explicitly designed to deal with drivers that have controlled directivity. People seem to have very mixed results in using the MS8 with horns, though with some work apparently some have managed to achieve good results. The MS8 does a LOT of shit behind the scenes......a LOT of the ability to obtain good results is based on how the system is setup before the auto-tuning, a LOT of the ability to obtain good results is based on figuring out why you aren't getting good results when you don't (which happens, often) and then figuring out how to fix the issue. I've read some pretty widely varied (and some very unorthodox) tricks on trying to get the MS8 to do what people want it to do. The MS8 isn't as stupid proof as people thought it was going to be. Quite a few people with horns have yanked it in favor of manual tuning.

Long story short; In this instance, it might make things worse rather than better.

Even I, with a fairly "standard" setup, have had to do some messing around to start to get results close to what I wanted. It's definitely not plug-n-play.

[87regal 0]

If I were to use the 6 channel ZED amp, would it work like this:

2 8ohm woofers in parallel ,channels 1+2 bridged for 600rms@4ohm

2 8ohm woofers in parallel, channels 3+4 bridged for 600rms@4ohm

1 HLCD, channel 5 for ???rms@8ohm

1 HLCD, channel 6 for ???rms@8ohm

Would I still need a separate sound processor or would the amps crossovers be sufficient?

[Impious 1,476]

Personally I would get an external processor for EQ and time alignment, and just use it for the xover functions as well.

Where are the bridged mids going to be located?

[sefugi 166]

Well, a couple things. For one you would need to make sure it extends high enough cleanly to mate with the horn. Second, when looking at T/S specs don't get caught up entirely on efficiency. There are trade-offs involved. You would want to look for something with a reasonable Fs, Qts, Vas and Xmax. If you find something with too high of an Fs, too low of a Qts, and too large of a Vas (for your space) you're going to end up with a driver that, in car door, is going to end up being -10db down @ 80hz......but the sensitivity will look outstanding. So it needs to be a trade-off between a useable Fs/Qts/Vas and sensitivity.

I would honestly look at two separate amps due to the different power requirements. I would do a smaller ~100 watt per channel @ 4ohm 2-channel amp for the horns (since they are 8ohm, that's around 50w to the horns) and then the most power you can find for the mids. Personally I'm a power freak, so I would look for something that can support ~600w minimum per channel @ 4ohm which would give you around 300w @ 8ohm as most pro audio style are 8ohm (most likely scenario is either bridging a high powered 4-channel amp down to two channels, or two separate 2-channel amps with one bridged to each mid).

Probably talking about the MiniDSP. It's a cool little piece for sure, but it's not nearly as plug-n-play as specifically designed car audio processors. There is a lot of talk about them on DIYMA, here's a review thread on the MiniDSP. I don't know a ton about all of it's kinks; you may need 2 of the 4-channels if you want to include your subs in the processing since the processor is only 4-channel output (and the 8-channel model has some drawbacks compared to just using two 4-channels). By the time you get either two 4-channels or the 8-channel plus all of the necessary hardware, you are up in the same price range as used car-audio specific processors. I'm not sure if there's a time lag in the processing, so you might be required to run the subs through the same processor to keep everything in-sync.....but that might be addressed either on the site or in the review thread.

I am in the works of a setup similar to this, THANKS for the in-depth responce explaining it!!! The MiniDSP looks to be a great option to look into. Hearing the MS-8 has possible issues/hurdles with a horn setup is good to know in advance. Thanks again for the knowledge!!

[87regal 0]

Personally I would get an external processor for EQ and time alignment, and just use it for the xover functions as well.

Where are the bridged mids going to be located?

2 mids in each front door...

Well, a couple things. For one you would need to make sure it extends high enough cleanly to mate with the horn. Second, when looking at T/S specs don't get caught up entirely on efficiency. There are trade-offs involved. You would want to look for something with a reasonable Fs, Qts, Vas and Xmax. If you find something with too high of an Fs, too low of a Qts, and too large of a Vas (for your space) you're going to end up with a driver that, in car door, is going to end up being -10db down @ 80hz......but the sensitivity will look outstanding. So it needs to be a trade-off between a useable Fs/Qts/Vas and sensitivity.

I would honestly look at two separate amps due to the different power requirements. I would do a smaller ~100 watt per channel @ 4ohm 2-channel amp for the horns (since they are 8ohm, that's around 50w to the horns) and then the most power you can find for the mids. Personally I'm a power freak, so I would look for something that can support ~600w minimum per channel @ 4ohm which would give you around 300w @ 8ohm as most pro audio style are 8ohm (most likely scenario is either bridging a high powered 4-channel amp down to two channels, or two separate 2-channel amps with one bridged to each mid).

Probably talking about the MiniDSP. It's a cool little piece for sure, but it's not nearly as plug-n-play as specifically designed car audio processors. There is a lot of talk about them on DIYMA, here's a review thread on the MiniDSP. I don't know a ton about all of it's kinks; you may need 2 of the 4-channels if you want to include your subs in the processing since the processor is only 4-channel output (and the 8-channel model has some drawbacks compared to just using two 4-channels). By the time you get either two 4-channels or the 8-channel plus all of the necessary hardware, you are up in the same price range as used car-audio specific processors. I'm not sure if there's a time lag in the processing, so you might be required to run the subs through the same processor to keep everything in-sync.....but that might be addressed either on the site or in the review thread.

I am in the works of a setup similar to this, THANKS for the in-depth responce explaining it!!! The MiniDSP looks to be a great option to look into. Hearing the MS-8 has possible issues/hurdles with a horn setup is good to know in advance. Thanks again for the knowledge!!

do you have a build topic?

and Impious, I appreciate all the info, you've really helped a lot!!!

Edited June 23, 2011 by 87regal

[sefugi 166]

do you have a build topic?

Have not started an install yet, only in the planning stages. I have 2 sets of ID horns to choose from but one set is the piezo type that mambers have commented that would not be the best choice. Have amps to power the front stage. 3- 2x150 amps. Still need mid/midbasses. Looking at the B&Cs and the Ciare drivers. Do have the ARC audio IDX crossover and the XEQ but feel I will need something better for tuning/adjustments. Was looking into the MS-8 but the MINI-DSP looks interesting. Reading this thread just helps to absorb more info in helping my planning before moving forward.

[Impious 1,476]

Personally I would get an external processor for EQ and time alignment, and just use it for the xover functions as well.

Where are the bridged mids going to be located?

2 mids in each front door...

I wanted to make sure you weren't doing something crazy like putting one up front and one in the back bridged off the same channel.