Crossover help

[bluelaser 1]

Hi, was wondering if anybody could help me.  I have been looking around trying to figure out how to cross over my system correctly but have not come up with a clear answer. I am in the process of upgrading my system, currently running 1 fi q on 1 q1-2200d as well as 4 coaxial speakers on an alpine cde-141 with the power pack connected to it. I was running the passive crossovers on the headunit at 80hz but now I am getting another fi q and q1-2200d and taking out the coaxial speakers and replacing them with 2 crescendo 8" pwx and 4 crescendo ft1 tweeters and running them with kicker kx800.2 and kx800.4 amps.  The 2 pwx speakers will be in the front with 2 of the tweeters and 2 of the tweeters in the back. This is where im running into problems, the cde-141 only have 2 rca outs (front and rear/sub), also I would like to run active crossovers if possible. I know i will probably need a headunit with 3 rca outs but then what kind of crossover do I get? Everything I look at seems to be front and rear are different channels but thats it. How do I split the signal between the mid/tweets in the front as well as have a different signal for the rear tweeters and different signal for the subwoofer? Any help would be appreciated.

[jcarter1885 995]

Either a mini-dsp or active capable amplifier will do, mini dsp will be a better option as it has more features. If you want a simplier solution then check out an active capable headunit such as the Pioneer 80PRS or Clarion CZ-702. I would switch up my speaker choices as well, PWX and FT-1s are not even the best choice for pa speakers and no speakers are needed in the rear either. Put that money into your front door speakers and whatever else is needed.

[///M5 2,833]

Yikes, terrible idea across the board.  Going to sound like utter shit.  You CANNOT mate an 8" pwd with a FT1 and expect anything other than a horseshit response.

[bluelaser 1]

will it really sound any worse than the current coaxial speakers with very little midbass (other than whats coming through the subwoofer with passive crossover) and treble that has a hard time keeping up with the bass unless its almost at cracking point? anyways got any better suggestions for speakers? possibly something to fill the gap between the pwx and ft1 seeing that I already ordered those? and thanks for the head unit suggestions they look nice

[jcarter1885 995]

Well as far suggestions on speakers let us know what you are looking for and your budget. Have you done any treatment to your doors to help ypur current install?

[bluelaser 1]

not yet but am planning to seal/deaden both front doors as well as modify the doors to fit the 8" speaker willing to do whatever to it, budget is basicly whatever I can gets thats good quality the cheapest (right now I spent about $45 on each speaker) can you suggested a midrange speaker around that price range to fill the gap between the pwx and ft1s? also I guess I would also need a 4 way crossover then.

[ssh 924]

Adding another set of speakers making it a three way (not including the subs) is a bad idea. It's much harder to tune and you'll need more processing. Plus just trying to add some drivers to "fill the gaps" won't sound as good as properly selecting drivers that will mate well for your goals (whether it be a 2-way or 3-way).

 

I know this isn't what you want to hear since you've already purchased speakers, but I would return them if possible, or resell at a slight loss if need be and properly plan out new speaker choices. Otherwise you're going to end up with a lack lustering mess of sound.

[jcarter1885 995]

I definitely wouldnt do a three way with it being your first time going active. If not having midbass now is a problem then treat your doors first go from there. Adding equipment wont make it better and you will npt get midbass from pa speakers unless you port them.

If just going for loud and want your front stage to keep up with your subs then pa speakers might be for you but there are better choices. Some go with the under dash horns and some high efficient 6.5", 8" or 10" drivers. You try a 3"/4" full range speaker from Faital Pro and get an efficient 6.5", 8" driver. There are plenty of options but giving speaker recommendations without knowing your goals or correcting current install is irrelevant. Sound can be subjective as well, what I like you may not and vice versa.

[bluelaser 1]

my ideal sound system would have clean loud bass, I love the sound quality of the fi q sealed but I also love to bump the bass which is why Im doubling up on that.  I also love strong, full midbass which I am lacking right now. Also I like crisp clean treble that wont crack or distort when turned up to match the bass/midbass. Finally I dont want any gaps in my frequency response, I want to be able to hit every frequency. Basicly I want great sound quality for all types of music and still be able to get loud and slam. My favorite kinds of music are metal and reggae which is why I dont aim for all out spl/ported boxes, but I still like to bump a lot of lower frequency songs. What kind of speakers would you suggest? I dont think its too late to return the speakers I ordered. honestly my current system isnt too bad I just know the infinity/rockford coaxials rated at 45-50rms wont cut it when I double up on the subs and Ive heard systems with sound quality that put mine to shame that had lots of mid/high speakers. I just want some speakers that will keep up with the sound quality and volume of the fi q's and i have plenty of amp power to work with (kx800.4 and kx800.2) any recommendations?

[bluelaser 1]

forgot to mention that I would like to active cross the q at 80hz, right now it is passive 80hz forget the slope probably 12db, so need midbass speakers to pick up at 80.

[ssh 924]

forgot to mention that I would like to active cross the q at 80hz, right now it is passive 80hz forget the slope probably 12db, so need midbass speakers to pick up at 80.

 

Cross the Qs around 50-60hz. You'll thank me later.

[bluelaser 1]

 

forgot to mention that I would like to active cross the q at 80hz, right now it is passive 80hz forget the slope probably 12db, so need midbass speakers to pick up at 80.

 

Cross the Qs around 50-60hz. You'll thank me later.

 

whys that? and whats a good midbass speaker to pick up at 50-60hz then?

[ssh 924]

forgot to mention that I would like to active cross the q at 80hz, right now it is passive 80hz forget the slope probably 12db, so need midbass speakers to pick up at 80.

Cross the Qs around 50-60hz. You'll thank me later.

whys that? and whats a good midbass speaker to pick up at 50-60hz then?

Of all the drivers I've used none sounded good crossed at 80hz, once I dropped them to 50-60hz then both the bass and midbass were clearer and sharper. Drums felt like a precision impact to the chest instead of a bunch of rumbling and vibration.

For what it's worth I've had fi bl, sundown sa 12, SSA dcon icon xcon, all in various alignments.

This is just my anecdotal advice, but I would be very surprised if you weren't happy with the difference in sound.

As to midbass drivers the only one I've used is the exodus exanarchy but they're optimal in ported enclosures and I'm not sure if you can still find them anywhere.

. try searching the forum for midbass drivers, you aren't the first to want midbass.

[bluelaser 1]

this is where things get unclear though, after watching videos and reading forums/reviews I was under the impression that the crescendo pwx were great midbass drivers but was just told they arnt. i guess im just lost now on what speakers to use. where do I even begin to figure out what the right midbass driver for me is?

[ssh 924]

this is where things get unclear though, after watching videos and reading forums/reviews I was under the impression that the crescendo pwx were great midbass drivers but was just told they arnt. i guess im just lost now on what speakers to use. where do I even begin to figure out what the right midbass driver for me is?

 

They're considered midrange drivers, so they're likely louder in midrange at the expense of midbass. Eg you have a ton of bass output but you want to hear the vocals over the bass than they work well, but they probably suck for actual midbass from drums, cymbals, etc.

 

As far as choosing a right midbass driver that's tougher. With the T/S specs you can model them in programs like WinISD and get some sort of idea of how they perform in infinite baffle (mounted to door panel) versus an enclosure (if door pods / kick pods are possible), but you'll still be left with "is driver x better than driver y?," and frankly I don't have an answer to that. The Loudspeaker Cookbook would give you a better foundation on how to use T/S specs of drivers for modeling. You could also look for popular 2-way setups that people have done that are proven and tested, eg what setups are sold on Parts Express and what were the goals of the people buying them in the comments/reviews section.

[bluelaser 1]

i could do infinite baffle or door pods, I love building/installing car audio so im not afraid of a little work
the dayton audio rs180-4 7" looks good as long as you cross it at 2500hz but is only 60rms so I dont know if it would keep up with the subs, i got 200rms to work with for midbass speakers at 4ohms

[bluelaser 1]

how would these work? http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_65568_Pioneer-TS-M800PRO.html is this the same deal with the pwx not much midbass?

[bluelaser 1]

found a forum saying that silver flute mids and vifa ne25vta tweeters are a good combo to run active, any input?

[altoncustomtech 773]

Perhaps you would be a good candidate for a dedicated midbass and full range setup?  Utilizing a good 8" woofer as a midbass driver and a 3" full range could possibly suit your needs.  I'm currently working on my wife's vehicle so I've not had a chance to install mine yet, but I have been using a Mach5 MLI65 6.5" woofer and a Fountek FR88EX 3" full range for the highs.  It does quite well and sounds phenomenal.  Ultimately I'll be installing Peerless SLS 8" woofers as the midbass drivers in enclosures in the doors and going to the Fountek FR89EX 3" drivers.  

 

The only real catch is that the full range drivers HAVE to be directly on axis to the listener along with the proper processing for all the drivers to work.  

[jcarter1885 995]

found a forum saying that silver flute mids and vifa ne25vta tweeters are a good combo to run active, any input?

I enjoyed my SilverFlute 6.5" driver but like my SB Acoustics SB17NRX35-4 better. Vifa makes good tweeters as well as SB Acoustics and HDS among other brands.

Places to shop and look at active drivers are as follows:

madisoundspeakerstore.com (placed an order there Thursday myself)

usspeaker.com

parts-express.com

I actually had the Crescendo FT-1 tweeter and didnt like it, just my preference. I enjoyed my Selenium super tweeters over both types of the Crescendo super tweeters. But being able to hear more from tweeters was a concern and lead me to an efficient pair of soft dome tweeters and haven't looked back sense.

[mikel7829 90]

 

found a forum saying that silver flute mids and vifa ne25vta tweeters are a good combo to run active, any input?

I enjoyed my SilverFlute 6.5" driver but like my SB Acoustics SB17NRX35-4 better. Vifa makes good tweeters as well as SB Acoustics and HDS among other brands.

Places to shop and look at active drivers are as follows:

madisoundspeakerstore.com (placed an order there Thursday myself)

usspeaker.com

parts-express.com

I actually had the Crescendo FT-1 tweeter and didnt like it, just my preference. I enjoyed my Selenium super tweeters over both types of the Crescendo super tweeters. But being able to hear more from tweeters was a concern and lead me to an efficient pair of soft dome tweeters and haven't looked back sense.

 

I luv me some parts-express.com

[bluelaser 1]

the sb accoustic midbass looks nice, will it be able to keep up with the substage since its just a 6.5? also does it need an enclosure or will it work fine in the door?

[jcarter1885 995]

Keep up is subjective, vocal wise you shouldnt have a problem. You wont find any midbass to keep up with 2 12s if you really rail on them. Going from 12 inch subs producing bass and trying to use a 6.5" or 8" to make your midbass as loud is not really possible. But my SB Acoustics mid vs an Eminence Alpha was almost neck and neck, Eminence was a little louder(considering it was meant for midrande duty) but the SB Acoustics was a well rounded speaker and didnt mind 60/80hz crossover point. The Eminence would fall flat on its face in this department.

I wouldnt buy them just off my recommendation or any speakers yet for that matter. You will need to work on current equipment and get your doors together first or any install is gonna be lacking including good speakers.

[bluelaser 1]

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-sb-acoustics/sb-acoustics-sb17nac35-4-6.5-aluminum-cone-woofer-4-ohm/ how would these compare? is the aluminum cone a better model?

[///M5 2,833]

You aren't ready to shop yet. How much space do you have and what are you willing to compromise on? You'll eithr be lacking midbass or have holes in the response. Need to know how much mounting space as well.

And wherever you read the pwx are good for midbass forget everything you think our learned as that is a site full of idiots.