12w7 vs. xcon 12

[Generation X 1]

according to specs xcon has more xmax, low fs and more power handling.

In terms of SQ how would they compare?

[///M5 2,833]

Depends on the application. I know which wa I'd lean in particular when the w7 is NOT JL's SQ driver IMO

The specs you listed have Nothing to do with your question though...

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I have not tested them head to head. Either way, both will provide clean sound in a proper install.

[///M5 2,833]

Now that I am not typing on my blackberry I am extremely curious as to why you listed the specs you did and then asked about SQ.

[80INCHES 0]

i think the xcon will walk all over a 12w7

hell i would put my re se's up against a 12w7 and i bet my re se will be up there with it...and sound better...w7 has ALOT of mass on it moving parts so its inefficent with power...u put the same power to my subs and it will be fine and sound better...and might get luder who knows..but if i the same box and did a swap out i think my sub will shine in areas the w7 wont and vice versa

80

[jlw*22 0]

Haven't heard the XCON but that don't mean that this isn't obvious. The XCON will be a better listening experience for sure. The W7 is awesome but I can't fathom the amount of control the motor on the XCON is going to have on that cone. It is just such a sick design and even more sick is the fact that you could almost buy 2 XCON's for the price of one JL W7 12. Absolute sickness. How do they do it?

[ncacoates 104]

herd plenty of w7s in my day sealed and ported i think my x-cons sound better. the low end extension on the x-cons are are sickening and they play all the way up in the 80hz rang like its nothing. i think for the price it should even further you decision towards the x-con. don't get me wrong jl makes nice stuff as well but the price and support of ssa products are unbeatable.

[justin smith 0]

489ish shipped(w7) from hifisoundconections dot com vs 420 shipped(x-con) from ssa to my zipp so i think they are deffinatley in the same bracket: high xmax, low fs, LOUD sound quality woofers imo

[Mark LaFountain 1,054]

this is really a no-brainer. XCON is just more of a sub for less money. period. IMO

[patented17 21]

If your truely are looking for SQ then you should compare it with the w6.

[///M5 2,833]

If your truely are looking for SQ then you should compare it with the w6.

He isn't, he stated specifically Xmax and Power handling which would not at all be a concern if he was focused on SQ. Although you are correct for that purpose the w6 >>>> w7.

[jlw*22 0]

489ish shipped(w7) from hifisoundconections dot com vs 420 shipped(x-con) from ssa to my zipp so i think they are deffinatley in the same bracket: high xmax, low fs, LOUD sound quality woofers imo

Pretty Sure you can't buy a sub from that dot com and get JL to honor the warranty. The authorized dealers run the W7 at $840. Here's their site that talks about this http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=111 . It would be stupid to pay more than $100, IMO, on electrical devices of any kind and not get that protection from the initial defects that can occur. So for the real deal, warranted products the SSA is right now less than half the price on the 12.

To M5: Wouldn't the xmax play a part in 20-40 hz range SQ a bit?

Edited May 14, 2009 by jw 2 + 2

[///M5 2,833]

Doubtful. Midbass is intrinsically the weakness in an SQ install and setting your sub to blend with most midbass drivers requires nearly no gain.

[jlw*22 0]

Makes sense to me. Never really thought about the blending of the stages. I was merely looking at the subwoofer itself. I would see the xmax as aiding the driver at being capable of them lower frequencies as they require twice the displacement as the octave above (unless your enclosure aids them of course). But I do agree that the front stage is the most difficult. Between cars and indoor acoustic characteristics, it is obvious that the car murders frequencies much more so than that of your living room. I have noticed that my car in particular kills mid-bass and seems to really amplify them freggin' tweeters. Bass is really a simple fix, just get more in the trunk. It takes roughly 2 times the power for me to hear what would appear to be a balance in bass and the rest. I am sure if metered that would show me that it isn't as bad as my ear hears.

As far as this comparison is concerned, the ability to reproduce accurate notes, I would say they are both amazing. I still think the XCON is the sensible choice. I might even say go with the XCON 10 as it would hold its own against that 12W7, IMO. The question is how low and how high are we looking at this sub playing as far as frequencies are concerned? That, to me, is the limitation of the drivers compared here. One is much more broad in its range (XCON), at least from what I have heard. Have no inductance data to confirm the higher frequencies of the XCON, it has just been said that it can. The W7 becomes more passive as the frequency rises. Of course the best reason of all is the awesome price difference. :bigclap:

Edited May 14, 2009 by jw 2 + 2

[Adrian_D 520]

Have no inductance data to confirm the higher frequencies of the XCON, it has just been said that it can. The W7 becomes more passive as the frequency rises.

IMO it shouldn't play so high that impedance becomes a problem. I've always crossed my subs at or below 50hz.

The displacement question would mostly be a concern if you are running it sealed.

I personally heard the 12w7, 13w7 and 13w6v2 in the same install. As far as musicality I would put the w6 first, then the 12w7 and the 13w7 last. The w7's seemed to have a bit more authority under 30hz though.

[jlw*22 0]

I think we are seeing the range of consumers here too. If you can cross your sub at 50hz and still get loud, you have killer mid-bass or no output there at all. Poor bastards like me have to squeeze as much (bandwidth) as we can out of our woofers so that the mids and highs can keep up with output without sounding like total chit.

Edited May 14, 2009 by jw 2 + 2

[///M5 2,833]

Using your sub as a woofer sucks

[wenn_du_weinst 1]

I cross at 80hz but have more spl orientated subs

[subwoofery 0]

You can have 6dBs more bass than your front stage and still be able to make your sub(s) blend with the front stage.

Try to get an RTA and smooth the response curve from 60 to 160hz (downward) no peaks nor dips.

Then try to flatten from 160 to 400hz. Works for me

Also watch out for 45hz, NO PEAKS THERE!!!!!

Kelvin

PS: one last thing, reversing your sub's polarity can do 50% of the job already. Feels like you are losing some bass but getting more midbass...

Edited May 17, 2009 by subwoofery

[sound=vibration 34]

You can have 6dBs more bass than your front stage and still be able to make your sub(s) blend with the front stage.

Try to get an RTA and smooth the response curve from 60 to 160hz (downward) no peaks nor dips.

Then try to flatten from 160 to 400hz. Works for me

Kelvin

PS: one last thing, reversing your sub's polarity can do 50% of the job already. Feels like you are losing some bass but getting more midbass...

why is that

[jlw*22 0]

This one truly is a system issue as far as what to go with and where to x-over at. Can't say there is a right answer. Certainly possible that with the equipment already installed, one could do better with its abilities.

[subwoofery 0]

You can have 6dBs more bass than your front stage and still be able to make your sub(s) blend with the front stage.

Try to get an RTA and smooth the response curve from 60 to 160hz (downward) no peaks nor dips.

Then try to flatten from 160 to 400hz. Works for me

Kelvin

PS: one last thing, reversing your sub's polarity can do 50% of the job already. Feels like you are losing some bass but getting more midbass...

why is that

This is just what I've learned... experimenting in my own car and learning for a few years what forum users had to teach me

Kelvin

[///M5 2,833]

And your idea of "blend" is subjective. There are some on this forum that would think they can blend something that is 30dB higher and some of us who truly want it to blend. Your arbitrary 6dB is not a rule of thumb or logical for the OP to try to follow.

[007 0]

i think the xcon will walk all over a 12w7

hell i would put my re se's up against a 12w7 and i bet my re se will be up there with it...and sound better...w7 has ALOT of mass on it moving parts so its inefficent with power...u put the same power to my subs and it will be fine and sound better...and might get luder who knows..but if i the same box and did a swap out i think my sub will shine in areas the w7 wont and vice versa

80

80, im gonna be the voice of opposition

The W7 is a pretty awesome driver for what it does. I don't think it has a lot of mass, but rather only uses a 2 layer VC. Pretty much everything else is 4 or more and its sensitivity is 86dB which is not bad for a 12 that can truly move 30mm each way. A lot of drivers out there claim high xmax but lack the proper suspension to back it up. Push a W7 down with your hand and you'll notice that the spider is a lot more linear than probably anything else in existence.

The W7 would have a lot more BL and sensitivity if they did mass up the voice coil (4 layers) but it would also increase inductance, but that's not why JL used a 2 layer vc... they designed the W7 for sealed boxes and they wanted it to work well for most customers in sealed boxes without the need for EQ so the they needed a high Qes. Believe me if JL was after end all BL product, they would do it. W7 is a much better driver than the W6, i don't really get this whole SQ W6 thing... if that was the case, wouldn't you assume that the Fathom and Gotham used W6's? JL knows what their best diver is and it ends in 7. I have not seen one measurement that shows the W6 has anything on the W7 expect cost.

But hey, if JL never sells another W7, id be just fine with that, so please don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone here is gonna run out and buy a W7 from what i said, but i just want people to know that from an engineering standpoint the W7 does not deserve the crap it gets from caruadio enthusiasts. I think that a lot of it comes from overwhelming hype from newbies, so enthusiasts tend to hate it as it is seen as the ultimate newbie boner - believe me i would hate that too.

[subwoofery 0]

And your idea of "blend" is subjective. There are some on this forum that would think they can blend something that is 30dB higher and some of us who truly want it to blend. Your arbitrary 6dB is not a rule of thumb or logical for the OP to try to follow.

Blend is subjective for a lot of people... I understand your feeling.

I was like you at first (lowering the gain of the subwoofer to blend with my midbass: so that nobody knows there's a subwoofer in the car)

However, I have managed to do the exact same thing (as stated above) but with 6dBs more output @ 63hz than I have @ 250hz for example (subwoofer lowpassed @ 80hz 12dB/oct) - smooth response curve all the way

I might repeat myself but ALL the sound is coming from my front stage - on some songs, people even put their hand on my dashboard to see if I have a small subwoofer hidden underneath it.

Believe some even managed the same thing with 9dBs more output (I wasn't able to lol)

Car audio is so difficult , complex and experimentation is the best way to learn.

Kelvin