Am i wrong here?

[eggyhustles 33]

I'm helping a member out on hondatech with a new setup and one poster is bragging that the user doesn't need an amp and that hu power would have fantastic sq.

My reply was

so because you've been doing something for 30 years means you've been doing it right? you have a clouded view of what sq means.... for one, you know how many frequencies you're missing out on just by using coaxial speakers? for 2 you're using rear speakers. where's your midbass coming from? where's your tweeter?

his response was

How many frequencies I am missing, actually yes I do know, do you?

The 6.5" Eclipse coax I have in my 94LS, [doors] have a response of 60Hz-25kHz, I have them crossed over at 75Hz, high-pass [they would go lower], it's a "coax", the tweeter, [silk dome] is coaxially mounted, the rears are the same but no tweeter, [disabled], I have an f3 point on them of 56Hz, the imaging and staging in the car is almost perfect, built and used as demo system for "non-amplified" systems and without sub(s), although I have been accused of having a hidden off-board amp or amps and subs, or rear speakers are subs.

FYI, the 4ch amp built into my Alpine HU has better specs then most "off-board" amps, other then RMS power.

I would be willing to bet I would win a SQ contest with just about anything you could come up with, no matter how much wattage you have.

I am also an IASCA install and SQ judge and have been for a long time so I am pretty sure I know what SQ is, or at least IASCA thinks so.

SQ comes from the HU, [source] and more importantly speaker installation, no matter what the speaker, component tweeters, mid-range, mid-range/mid bass, mid-bass, sub(s) or multi-element speakers, it does not come with SPL, [wattage of off-board amps].

Your entitled to your opinion, but don't try and tell me I am wrong about something I have been doing since you were still your old mans wet dream. nuff said 94

I dont know much about car audio but i do have a basic understanding of it..

thoughts?

Edited October 14, 2009 by eggyhustles

[djphilly 11]

I'm helping a member out on hondatech with a new setup and one poster is bragging that the user doesn't need an amp and that hu power would have fantastic sq.

My reply was

so because you've been doing something for 30 years means you've been doing it right? you have a clouded view of what sq means.... for one, you know how many frequencies you're missing out on just by using coaxial speakers? for 2 you're using rear speakers. where's your midbass coming from? where's your tweeter?

his response was

How many frequencies I am missing, actually yes I do know, do you?

The 6.5" Eclipse coax I have in my 94LS, [doors] have a response of 60Hz-25kHz, I have them crossed over at 75Hz, high-pass [they would go lower], it's a "coax", the tweeter, [silk dome] is coaxially mounted, the rears are the same but no tweeter, [disabled], I have an f3 point on them of 56Hz, the imaging and staging in the car is almost perfect, built and used as demo system for "non-amplified" systems and without sub(s), although I have been accused of having a hidden off-board amp or amps and subs, or rear speakers are subs.

FYI, the 4ch amp built into my Alpine HU has better specs then most "off-board" amps, other then RMS power.

I would be willing to bet I would win a SQ contest with just about anything you could come up with, no matter how much wattage you have.

I am also an IASCA install and SQ judge and have been for a long time so I am pretty sure I know what SQ is, or at least IASCA thinks so.

SQ comes from the HU, [source] and more importantly speaker installation, no matter what the speaker, component tweeters, mid-range, mid-range/mid bass, mid-bass, sub(s) or multi-element speakers, it does not come with SPL, [wattage of off-board amps].

Your entitled to your opinion, but don't try and tell me I am wrong about something I have been doing since you were still your old mans wet dream. nuff said 94

I dont know much about car audio but i do have a basic understanding of it..

thoughts?

Can you get good sound quality from a coaxial yes. in my opinion, a system will always sound better with sepeate components. subs, mids, tweeters,etc. just because his frequency response on his coaxials is 60hz-25khz doesn't mean he getting every frequency played clearly. he has no control on what frequency the tweeter or the mid range of the coaxial on going to play at seperate. he relying on the crossover on the speaker to decifer that.

and that whole thing about being a judge. ask him how many comps he has won since he's a judge.

and yes it does matter what kind of speakers you use. would you go to walmart and get some sony explods if you had the money to spend on some focals? better quality speaker, better sound. if you ask a SQ competitor, most likely they are using an amp to power their system, components or not.

[eggyhustles 33]

I'm here thinking im wrong and i'm giving this guy a hard time

this is how the rest of the debate went.

Him

The HU, [source] is the most important part of your system, everything depends on it.

Good SQ and bass extension can be archived without amps, [off-board] and/or subs, properly installed speakers, [just about any brand or price point]] and a "high power", properly wired, HU will get you what you need.

I run an Alpine HU and 4 Eclipse 6.5" coax speakers in my 94LS, amps and subs are not an option as I autocross the car, like you it's all about going fast, I don't need the ground pounding bass, been there more then once over the years, and as long as Billy Idol's White wedding sounds like I have a sub, [it does] and I can hear Frank Zappa play the guitar clearly, I'm good to go.

Although "bass tubes" can sound OK, placement of the tube can be/is critical, although I do agree with mrdeadman audiobahn tubes sound like crap, as most audiobahn stuff does, IMO. you can do better with a basslink or bazooka, or just about anything else.

me

No it cannot...you sure you know what sq means?

Another member tells me that i'm out of my mind

i reply back with

um...not really

i wanna see someone achieve a sq setup running coaxial speakers off headunit power..

he says

I wanna know exactly what you mean by sq. Because if you mean the sq you can get out of a $15000 home theater audio system you can't get that same quality in a car no matter how much money you spend.

i say

I guess some people have a different meaning of sq.

IMO

the least you should do in a car audio setup is decent hu with 2+ voltage preouts' date=' and a decent eq, entry level comps, decent 2 ch amp that'll do 70-100x2, and sound deadening.

but to think you'll acheive sq with coaxial speakers being fed dirty power from a hu is just plain wrong... [/quote']

he comes back with

My integra's stock speakers (components) sounded kick ass running just a hu. I think it really depends on the speakers. I like the sound of paper speakers. Others like the sound of poly speakers. SQ is a very subjective measure. Unless you factor in quantities such as THD, freq response, and s/n of the equipment.

I don't see what you mean by "dirty" power anyway. The power is straight from the source (albeit a small amount of power). There are no 10ft RCAs or even an amp "muddying" up the signal.

The only thing I think you're getting at is a lack of power for the speakers.

Member one comes back and says

ROFL...

Yes I am pretty sure I know what SQ is, 30+ years of installing car audio has given me some insight into how to get SQ out of a car audio system, [any system].

Do not confuse SQ with SPL, SQ can be had at any SPL level, you do not need "70-100x2", [140-200 watts of power to get good SQ or a sub for that matter.

The debate ends with what i quoted in my first post.

I didn't bother to respond back because i'm tired of going back and forth.

Edited October 14, 2009 by eggyhustles

[SPLScion 3]

Thank you for posting this cuz I needed a good laugh today. The only thing he said that I agree with is sq is somewhat subjective however that is with in reason. Think of it this way, its guys like this who make people like "us" sound soooo much better. He needs to get out of the dark ages. I also don't see where you said you need "70 100x2" amplifiers.

Just because he has been installing for "30 years" doesn't mean shit! A year ago I had a guy who has installed and built enclosures for 20 years (and I knew him for 14 years) build me a box, it was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen in my life. He didn't fullfill a single one of my needs, and yes I told him very specifially every single one of my needs. I trusted this guy without question and was very dissapointed. My point is that years of experience in itself means very little, esp. if they were no good in the 1st place.

He obv hasn't learned anything new in those 30 years lololl.

[SPLScion 3]

I would love to be a fly on the wall while this guy and M5 got into a "conversation". I would buy a ticket for that for good money, although I don't know how much time M5 would waste on him, just a guess tho.

[eggyhustles 33]

Thank you for posting this cuz I needed a good laugh today. The only thing he said that I agree with is sq is somewhat subjective however that is with in reason. Think of it this way, its guys like this who make people like "us" sound soooo much better. He needs to get out of the dark ages. I also don't see where you said you need "70 100x2" amplifiers.

Just because he has been installing for "30 years" doesn't mean shit! A year ago I had a guy who has installed and built enclosures for 20 years (and I knew him for 14 years) build me a box, it was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen in my life. He didn't fullfill a single one of my needs, and yes I told him very specifially every single one of my needs. I trusted this guy without question and was very dissapointed. My point is that years of experience in itself means very little, esp. if they were no good in the 1st place.

He obv hasn't learned anything new in those 30 years lololl.

i said for a decent entry level setup a good 2 ch that'll do 70-100 x 2 would work fine..ex phoenix gold rsd's.

[eggyhustles 33]

I would love to be a fly on the wall while this guy and M5 got into a "conversation". I would buy a ticket for that for good money, although I don't know how much time M5 would waste on him, just a guess tho.

i'd pay for that lol.

[mccleery3 166]

Yeah, I was wondering if M5 would even give an opinion or response about this supposed "SQ Judge".

[SPLScion 3]

he's an SQ "judge"?? I missed that I guess I need to read more closely, if thats the case then WOW is all I can say, this guy needs to put on a santa hat and

[mccleery3 166]

^^^^^hilarious!!!

[lithium 358]

that guys was either a pucking retard or a troll. honestly im surprised he could spell... id like to throw a physics text book at this guy...

if i were you i would follow that guy's postings, then add "this guy is a pucking retard" after each of his posts... or just leave the forum haha

[///M5 2,833]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

[mrd 0]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

[djphilly 11]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose?

[mrd 0]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose?

I would argue that a better signal fed to the speakers makes more difference than the speakers themselves. It's like listening to a radio vs. a cd...

[SPLScion 3]

I think your missing the real point, the way you make it sound a person would have a better SQ sound stage using a head unit to power coax speakers then a class a/b amplifier powering components and we all know that isn't true. Your explainations were misleading at best.

[djphilly 11]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose?

I would argue that a better signal fed to the speakers makes more difference than the speakers themselves. It's like listening to a radio vs. a cd...

So what you are saying is that the speakers make no difference in SQ. so in the world of car audio, home audio, pro audio, and studio recording audio the speaker plays no part in sound quality. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT!. if thats the case I wasted my money on My JBL PRO AUDIO DJ speakers and my CROWN AMPS and could have gone with some flea market brand speakers. there is a reason why companies make "ECONOMY" products and then they make the "HIGH END" products, because people spend there money wisely. I think Everyone on this forum would agree when I say that they would not trade in their SUNDOWN products for some PYLE PRO products for any reason at all.

[mrd 0]

I think your missing the real point, the way you make it sound a person would have a better SQ sound stage using a head unit to power coax speakers then a class a/b amplifier powering components and we all know that isn't true. Your explainations were misleading at best.

His original argument was that his setup will sound better if he just amps it. And we were both arguing (basically) that the op's money is better spent on a better hu, which would give him much greater sq than merely amping his speakers would alone. You don't necessarily NEED an amp for good sq (at lower volumes, depending on the speakers and source, not everyone needs their ears to bleed... ) eggy never said anything about using an a/b amp to power components, he initially stated that you just need an amp. That is what started the argument. FCM went on to say that a "high-power" hu and properly installed speakers will give you good sq, and this is when eggy said that you need an amp for good sq.

[mrd 0]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose?

I would argue that a better signal fed to the speakers makes more difference than the speakers themselves. It's like listening to a radio vs. a cd...

So what you are saying is that the speakers make no difference in SQ. so in the world of car audio, home audio, pro audio, and studio recording audio the speaker plays no part in sound quality. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT!. if thats the case I wasted my money on My JBL PRO AUDIO DJ speakers and my CROWN AMPS and could have gone with some flea market brand speakers. there is a reason why companies make "ECONOMY" products and then they make the "HIGH END" products, because people spend there money wisely. I think Everyone on this forum would agree when I say that they would not trade in their SUNDOWN products for some PYLE PRO products for any reason at all.

That is not what I'm saying at all.

You should really read the thread:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2659926

I am saying that the source makes the most difference, esp in a CAR.

[djphilly 11]

I think your missing the real point, the way you make it sound a person would have a better SQ sound stage using a head unit to power coax speakers then a class a/b amplifier powering components and we all know that isn't true. Your explainations were misleading at best.

His original argument was that his setup will sound better if he just amps it. And we were both arguing (basically) that the op's money is better spent on a better hu, which would give him much greater sq than merely amping his speakers would alone. You don't necessarily NEED an amp for good sq (at lower volumes, depending on the speakers and source, not everyone needs their ears to bleed... ) eggy never said anything about using an a/b amp to power components, he initially stated that you just need an amp. That is what started the argument. FCM went on to say that a "high-power" hu and properly installed speakers will give you good sq, and this is when eggy said that you need an amp for good sq.

What kind of amp did you think he was talking about when he said using an amp would be better? a CLASS D for coaxials! of course he was talking about A/B class

[mrd 0]

I think your missing the real point, the way you make it sound a person would have a better SQ sound stage using a head unit to power coax speakers then a class a/b amplifier powering components and we all know that isn't true. Your explainations were misleading at best.

His original argument was that his setup will sound better if he just amps it. And we were both arguing (basically) that the op's money is better spent on a better hu, which would give him much greater sq than merely amping his speakers would alone. You don't necessarily NEED an amp for good sq (at lower volumes, depending on the speakers and source, not everyone needs their ears to bleed... ) eggy never said anything about using an a/b amp to power components, he initially stated that you just need an amp. That is what started the argument. FCM went on to say that a "high-power" hu and properly installed speakers will give you good sq, and this is when eggy said that you need an amp for good sq.

What kind of amp did you think he was talking about when he said using an amp would be better? a CLASS D for coaxials! of course he was talking about A/B class

No I did not. Did you read the thread yet? Lulz.

If the op of that thread just amped the speakers, his sq would be no better except at higher volumes. If he put in a better hu, rather than an amp, he would get better sq.

[djphilly 11]

I didn't read his post. Easy cure, point him here and see if he has the balls to try to continue. I'd be glad to discuss anything with him.

Hello.

Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers.

yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose?

I would argue that a better signal fed to the speakers makes more difference than the speakers themselves. It's like listening to a radio vs. a cd...

I took the liberty of highlighting what you posted just in case you forgot. the speaker and the power would make a whole world of difference in quality. headunits usually put out lets say 50watts max per channel(12-25watts rms estimating). now to a speaker that is rated at lets say 60 watts rms that HU is going to be clipping way before the speaker reaches rms power. hince the need for an AMP to supply the right amount of power to reach sufficent sound quality with DIRTY signal or power

[djphilly 11]

I took the liberty of highlighting what you posted just in case you forgot. the speaker and the power would make a whole world of difference in quality. headunits usually put out lets say 50watts max per channel(12-25watts rms estimating). now to a speaker that is rated at lets say 60 watts rms that HU is going to be clipping way before the speaker reaches rms power. hince the need for an AMP to supply the right amount of power to reach sufficent sound quality without DIRTY signal or power

[SPLScion 3]

"high powered head unit"? that doesn't exist, there really isn't a HU on the market with an internal amp worth a damn really, and I never said nor implied he needed an amp powerful enough to make his ears "bleed". I'll agree that perhaps eggy should have been more clear what type of amp to use, but I'll take a crappy HU with a SAZ50.4 powering average components over a high end HU powering any speakers, even Focals.

Also, a 2 channel amp of 70-100 watts is not much power, not even close. Perhaps we are arguing over symantics, but I am having a hard time with the comments about coax speakers, and the implication that there is any HU with an internal amp worth the material its made out of, in a perfect world all HU's would have only RCA outputs and no internal amp.

Really tho its the coax speaker thing killing me, guess I'll just have to let it go. All healthy arguing aside, your a member now so I hope you stick around and check out the site. If your a fan of SQ, or SPL or good people in general you will love it here. I've said this before and will ay it again, discussion leads to progression, so enjoy the site and again stick around.

Edited October 15, 2009 by SPLScion

[eggyhustles 33]

"high powered head unit"? that doesn't exist, there really isn't a HU on the market with an internal amp worth a damn really, and I never said nor implied he needed an amp powerful enough to make his ears "bleed". I'll agree that perhaps eggy should have been more clear what type of amp to use, but I'll take a crappy HU with a SAZ50.4 powering average components over a high end HU powering any speakers, even Focals.

Also, a 2 channel amp of 70-100 watts is not much power, not even close. Perhaps we are arguing over symantics, but I am having a hard time with the comments about coax speakers, and the implication that there is any HU with an internal amp worth the material its made out of, in a perfect world all HU's would have only RCA outputs and no internal amp.

Really tho its the coax speaker thing killing me, guess I'll just have to let it go. All healthy arguing aside, your a member now so I hope you stick around and check out the site. If your a fan of SQ, or SPL or good people in general you will love it here. I've said this before and will ay it again, discussion leads to progression, so enjoy the site and again stick around.

i should have..and with that said, i'd like to apologize to mrd for not being clear enough..and also for calling him an idiot.

about the 70-100w thing, the op in the thread was on an extreme small budget so i suggested some entry level comps such as the rsd's and a decent 2 ch that that'll do 70-100