Fi btl dead=(defeat) ?

[snapon27 1]

Album of Fi BTL 15 Pictures

I have a Btl 15 fully loaded with Cooling, HiXm coil, Inner Heat Sink, daily Driver, dual 2s. I was recently looking at my sub and found that the spiders were starting to crack. I thought maybe the motor was bending the frame and causing the coils to scrape. I had a friend post on a forum about frames bending and they all said the frame would crack and break before it would bend. I do not know if I got a faulty frame or what but my frame is bent which made the sub not be centered and caused the coils to scrape on the motor and put extra force on that side of the spider . I have pictures and measurement to show what I am talking about. Also on my I heat ring where the plastic spacer is, found when I took it apart that there were little chucks of metal ca glued to them from factory. This would also not allow the basket to sit flush. I have a 4 cubic foot box tuned to 34hz in a 1995 olds cutlass supreme with the big three upgrade, 2 yellow top batteries, one in front and one in rear, with a Hifonic bxi 2608.

[jcarter1885 995]

Album of Fi BTL 15 Pictures

I have a Btl 15 fully loaded with Cooling, HiXm coil, Inner Heat Sink, daily Driver, dual 2s. I was recently looking at my sub and found that the spiders were starting to crack. I thought maybe the motor was bending the frame and causing the coils to scrape. I had a friend post on a forum about frames bending and they all said the frame would crack and break before it would bend. I do not know if I got a faulty frame or what but my frame is bent which made the sub not be centered and caused the coils to scrape on the motor and put extra force on that side of the spider . I have pictures and measurement to show what I am talking about. Also on my I heat ring where the plastic spacer is, found when I took it apart that there were little chucks of metal ca glued to them from factory. This would also not allow the basket to sit flush. I have a 4 cubic foot box tuned to 34hz in a 1995 olds cutlass supreme with the big three upgrade, 2 yellow top batteries, one in front and one in rear, with a Hifonic bxi 2608.

Sorry to hear that man, how did you have your amp set(just curious)?

[bigrank916 72]

Have you contacted Nick or Scott from Fi about this problem?

[DD9915D!!! 5]

Infrasonic on amp set to 30, LP set to 60ish, gain is at about 6 out of 10. Bass boost is about 8 out of 10. We also have pics of the coil rubbing from the frame being bent. Throw up some pics Rob... Sub is fubar

[lithium 358]

Infrasonic on amp set to 30, LP set to 60ish, gain is at about 6 out of 10. Bass boost is about 8 out of 10. We also have pics of the coil rubbing from the frame being bent. Throw up some pics Rob... Sub is fubar

booooooo bass boost... 3 db of boost is double the power at the frequency, you where clipping the amp quite hard. that being said, usually you only see damage to the spider from over excursion from playing below tuning frequency, or some situation similar situation. you mentioned the frame is bent? is that from shipping?

well anyways, im sure the guys from fi can help you out.

[jcarter1885 995]

Infrasonic on amp set to 30, LP set to 60ish, gain is at about 6 out of 10. Bass boost is about 8 out of 10. We also have pics of the coil rubbing from the frame being bent. Throw up some pics Rob... Sub is fubar

I knew you were going to say that, Bass Boost FTL !

[snapon27 1]

Infrasonic on amp set to 30, LP set to 60ish, gain is at about 6 out of 10. Bass boost is about 8 out of 10. We also have pics of the coil rubbing from the frame being bent. Throw up some pics Rob... Sub is fubar

booooooo bass boost... 3 db of boost is double the power at the frequency, you where clipping the amp quite hard. that being said, usually you only see damage to the spider from over excursion from playing below tuning frequency, or some situation similar situation. you mentioned the frame is bent? is that from shipping?

well anyways, im sure the guys from fi can help you out.

yes the frame is bent i didn't know it till it was to late didn't even thank to measure it to see once i got but all the pics are at the top in my original post and u can see the is like a 1/4 of an inch difference from side to side. the amp dose have the built in cliping stuff so if it was doing it that bad it should of shut off?

[snapon27 1]

Have you contacted Nick or Scott from Fi about this problem?

have not yet dont really know how to get a hold of them figured this was the best place

[bigrank916 72]

Have you contacted Nick or Scott from Fi about this problem?

have not yet dont really know how to get a hold of them figured this was the best place

Email them.

nick@ficaraudio.com

scott@ficaraudio.com

[snapon27 1]

Have you contacted Nick or Scott from Fi about this problem?

have not yet dont really know how to get a hold of them figured this was the best place

Email them.

nick@ficaraudio.com

scott@ficaraudio.com

emailed them both

thanks

[bigrank916 72]

Have you contacted Nick or Scott from Fi about this problem?

have not yet dont really know how to get a hold of them figured this was the best place

Email them.

nick@ficaraudio.com

scott@ficaraudio.com

emailed them both

thanks

[DD9915D!!! 5]

So not heathly...

[BILTD 60]

OMG.

[NDMstang65 403]

The color of that coil isn't normal by any stretch and spiders simply do not crack within normal operating range....get it back to us and we'll look at it. But I doubt very seriously if it would be deemed a defect. If the surround flange was bent (most likely in shipping) then it would not seal in the box. However if the surround flange was bent it has absolutely no bearing on rocking the coil like that..the surround has very little play in the suspension design of the BTL and it definitely will not rock the coil unless you are moving 4" peak to peak which is where the surround locks up, then it would start to pull on the coil. You used bass boost which in and of itself is bad...the coil is black..and the suspension has been yanked so hard below tuning of the enclosure that it caused the spiders to pop like a potato chip...

There never is CA glue on the plastic spacers...it does not go there. If there was a shaving odds are it probably came off of the coil once it was fried and the former started to blow apart.

It's like running your car into a wall and taking it back to the ford dealership and saying that your cupholder is crooked and it caused the car to run into the wall.

Regardless..send it in...

[Warbleed 1]

Looks like some pretty serious user error.

[Mac N Cheese 90]

rough in the streets

[DD9915D!!! 5]

Lets go through your claims one by one-

"The color of that coil isn't normal by any stretch..."

Of course not, it was plugged into an outlet, which is harsh to begin with. The coil(which you can clearly see in the vid was not the same color when we began to deliberately shorten its life.

"get it back to us and we'll look at it. But I doubt very seriously if it would be deemed a defect."

Not since shipping itself would cost as much as 75% of a recone - and we will get to your defect in second. Do not assume that because it did not survive an outlet - it is defective, it was defective before that. We knew there was a problem long before we decided to pop it, if there was one only ONE way to kill a sub my job would be very easy and every sub would have to be reconed for the same reason. Please do not suggest you can explain away your defect with user error - all the bass boost under the sun would not cause one side of the frame to be 1/4 of an inch higher than the other.

"If the surround flange was bent (most likely in shipping) then it would not seal in the box. However if the surround flange was bent it has absolutely no bearing on rocking the coil like that..the surround has very little play in the suspension design of the BTL and it definitely will not rock the coil unless you are moving 4" peak to peak which is where the surround locks up, then it would start to pull on the coil."

"You used bass boost which in and of itself is bad...the coil is black..and the suspension has been yanked so hard below tuning of the enclosure that it caused the spiders to pop like a potato chip..."

Good save. I will honestly say the coil never saw 4 inch excursion, settings on the deck were down as far as they would go ( into the negative). This amp also a clipping indicator which never even blinked. Bass boost is at 35hz, your recommended enclosure tuning for this sub.

"There never is CA glue on the plastic spacers...it does not go there. If there was a shaving odds are it probably came off of the coil once it was fried and the former started to blow apart."

I accept it is not CA, whatever you call it, there was not enough of it to begin with which lead to the failure of that part of this sub. Please explain how a shaving that is clearly aluminium, got stuck between the frame and the heat ring - throwing the whole frame off balance, which is the case here, I might add. <<------ This is clearly the issue - having nothing to do with bass boost.

"It's like running your car into a wall and taking it back to the ford dealership and saying that your cupholder is crooked and it caused the car to run into the wall."

Actually, it's more like, "Hey the manufacturure screwed up my shocks, let's jump the Truck(the BTL would be an F-350 Crew Cab) off of stair gaps because they are sending me new shocks."

"Regardless..send it in..."

It's up to Rob.

[NDMstang65 403]

Lets go through your claims one by one-

"The color of that coil isn't normal by any stretch..."

Of course not, it was plugged into an outlet, which is harsh to begin with. The coil(which you can clearly see in the vid was not the same color when we began to deliberately shorten its life.

"get it back to us and we'll look at it. But I doubt very seriously if it would be deemed a defect."

Not since shipping itself would cost as much as 75% of a recone - and we will get to your defect in second. Do not assume that because it did not survive an outlet - it is defective, it was defective before that. We knew there was a problem long before we decided to pop it, if there was one only ONE way to kill a sub my job would be very easy and every sub would have to be reconed for the same reason. Please do not suggest you can explain away your defect with user error - all the bass boost under the sun would not cause one side of the frame to be 1/4 of an inch higher than the other.

"If the surround flange was bent (most likely in shipping) then it would not seal in the box. However if the surround flange was bent it has absolutely no bearing on rocking the coil like that..the surround has very little play in the suspension design of the BTL and it definitely will not rock the coil unless you are moving 4" peak to peak which is where the surround locks up, then it would start to pull on the coil."

"You used bass boost which in and of itself is bad...the coil is black..and the suspension has been yanked so hard below tuning of the enclosure that it caused the spiders to pop like a potato chip..."

Good save. I will honestly say the coil never saw 4 inch excursion, settings on the deck were down as far as they would go ( into the negative). This amp also a clipping indicator which never even blinked. Bass boost is at 35hz, your recommended enclosure tuning for this sub.

"There never is CA glue on the plastic spacers...it does not go there. If there was a shaving odds are it probably came off of the coil once it was fried and the former started to blow apart."

I accept it is not CA, whatever you call it, there was not enough of it to begin with which lead to the failure of that part of this sub. Please explain how a shaving that is clearly aluminium, got stuck between the frame and the heat ring - throwing the whole frame off balance, which is the case here, I might add. <<------ This is clearly the issue - having nothing to do with bass boost.

"It's like running your car into a wall and taking it back to the ford dealership and saying that your cupholder is crooked and it caused the car to run into the wall."

Actually, it's more like, "Hey the manufacturure screwed up my shocks, let's jump the Truck(the BTL would be an F-350 Crew Cab) off of stair gaps because they are sending me new shocks."

"Regardless..send it in..."

It's up to Rob.

A bent flange on a surround will not cause that type of failure. The cone assembly has to move 4 inches before it will yank the the spider assembly sideways (at this point is when you start to rock the coil IF the surround comes into play.(..which it does not in this case). A dog has 4 feet of chain before he hangs himself..he will never go to that 4 foot mark if somebody comes in his territory because he knows that his chain is 4 feet long and he will snap his neck at 4 feet. Same scenario..a BTL suspension assembly will never yank because a surround is crooked due to a bent basket that likely happened in shipping...as every single basket is spun and inspected before it is even put on a motor, let alone when everything is assembled in the motor assembly. Point is, it did not go out of the shipping department like that. It probably happened in shipping and if you don't say "Hey this happened in shipping" and a UPS file is not claimed...nothing can be done. It isn't our fault it was dropped.

A clipping indicator an amplifier is absolutely worthless at best. The ONLY way you can know that you are not clipping is via an Oscilloscope. Not a little LED, and definitely not a DMM.

If you look under the plastic spacers they are not solid, there are spaces underneath every one of them that are void. Those spacers also compress when the basket is torqued down to the same spec on every screw..keeping all of it linear. The coil assembly is then dropped on the basket with a gauge that keeps everything concentric and linear. The spider flange is not bent, therefore this would not cause that type of failure. The entire assembly is built off of that woofer. You could be as much as .020" off and never ever scrape a coil in the first place because it is all assembled off of that same platform. If there was a shaving of aluminum under one of the plastic spacers it would compress into the spacer itself or it would bend as that aluminum is very very soft and has no bearing at all on the geometry of the assembly and how it is dropped in...as it is all used on the exact same gauge material. If it was off center it would be caught in QC as all woofers are played through full excursion before they leave. The coil would clang and bang on the test bench and it would never leave, it would be rebuilt if the aluminum shaving was an issue that was causing everything to be off center...which..it wasn't.

Bass boost is NOT recommended. What is recommended and required is a subsonic filter. The two are completely polar opposites of each other. Subsonic filter needs to be set 2-3 Hz below the tuning of the ported enclosure. Bass boost should not even be on the amp, nor should the head unit have anything on it either. It makes a bad situation even worse.

If you drive a car off of a bridge...it lands at the bottom shatters in 400 pieces..and you send pictures into ford about the alleged bad shocks that were on it of the pieces that are left over from you driving the car off of the bridge do you think they are going to believe that the shocks were bad in the first place and give you a new car because you sent them a blurry picture of a shaving of aluminum washer that threw the whole car out of alignment resulting in you driving it off of the bridge?

As said, send it in. If not a recone can be purchased.

[tommyk90 3]

Dude, one question.

After you determined it to be a "manufacturer defect", why in the HELL would totally destroy the thing?

Now nobody knows what MAY have happened from the factory, and what you caused by plugging the thing into the wall effectively exploding the coil, former, and suspension.

Truly an idiotic move on your part. The minute it started giving me problems I would have pulled it out and got into contact with the manufacturer.

If you have an amp that's stuck in protect, do you short circuit the terminals and fry every component on the board?

[jcarter1885 995]

Dude, one question.

After you determined it to be a "manufacturer defect", why in the HELL would totally destroy the thing?

Now nobody knows what MAY have happened from the factory, and what you caused by plugging the thing into the wall effectively exploding the coil, former, and suspension.

Truly an idiotic move on your part. The minute it started giving me problems I would have pulled it out and got into contact with the manufacturer.

If you have an amp that's stuck in protect, do you short circuit the terminals and fry every component on the board?

Some people just dont have the common sense or want to bump so bad they could care less if something is wrong. I checked my sub the other day when I got it brand new from Sundown and even tested it on a house stereo to make sure nothing went wrong from leaving Sundown and getting to me.

Now he wants to argue with the man who makes them, not a smart move buddy especially when he is trying to help you out. Listen and learn from your mistakes so they wont happen again in the future. A clipping light only means it will tell you when it suspects clipping, it doesnt stop the amp from clipping. Im pretty sure everytime you had it on and playing you were not starring at the clipping light. Even if you dont think it was your fault or dont know how it was your fault just accept the responsibility so this can get fixed in a timely manner instead of arguing something you dont know. Trust me you dont know how it could of happened since you dont make subwoofers, since you dont you wont know how this subs structure affects the performance only the manufacturer would (so listen to NDMstang65 and I wish you good luck with this).

[DD9915D!!! 5]

"The coil would clang and bang on the test bench and it would never leave, it would be rebuilt if the aluminum shaving was an issue that was causing everything to be off center...which..it wasn't."

It took a year for the porblem to become an issue. It would have not happened on your test bench.

"If you look under the plastic spacers they are not solid, there are spaces underneath every one of them that are void. Those spacers also compress when the basket is torqued down to the same spec on every screw..keeping all of it linear."

Ok since you are assuming your customers are lying idiots who don't know what the hell they bought, lets try another scenario.

You are putting rims on a car, theres a metal shard on the hub between the rim and the hub, you mount the rim applying the same torque to all lugs. Does this simplify the issue enough for you?

Apparently, we all are deaf bastards driving cars off of cliffs.

We don't use things like Fi and Martin Logan, and DD99 series, and run 52" Plasmas and drive Mercedes Benz for no reason. And deaf to boot. And apparently using outdated stone-age amps with no real value. C'mon, man,

Also the spacers have two shards in two separate peices, PS it is aliminiumn from the frame. It is cast aluminium from the frame. NOT from the former as you suggested. HQ pics are coming so you can see this.

The recone for the sub in question however, is up to Rob. I am inclined to defer to him on this, since it is his, but personally prefer to shop elsewhere in the future for altogether new subs.

[DD9915D!!! 5]

"Dude, one question.

After you determined it to be a "manufacturer defect", why in the HELL would totally destroy the thing?

Now nobody knows what MAY have happened from the factory, and what you caused by plugging the thing into the wall effectively exploding the coil, former, and suspension.

Truly an idiotic move on your part. The minute it started giving me problems I would have pulled it out and got into contact with the manufacturer.

If you have an amp that's stuck in protect, do you short circuit the terminals and fry every component on the board?"

Sure, I can address this.

We knew we had a Problem. This is not the first time I have seen this, I knew that the frame was bent. The sub would tap all the time, On its side, on its other side, face up. You could tap on the cone and it would "ting", sounds like a coil tapping the pole piece. Cool, lets pop it and get a re-cone. Popped it, did an autopsy, found more than what we thought. I am pretty sure I know whats going on when I see metal chunks on the 35 dollar plastic part. ou really cant miss it.

On your last question - Of course not, because I do not build amps, I build subs.

[tommyk90 3]

Sure, I can address this.

We knew we had a Problem. This is not the first time I have seen this, I knew that the frame was bent. The sub would tap all the time, On its side, on its other side, face up. You could tap on the cone and it would "ting", sounds like a coil tapping the pole piece. Cool, lets pop it and get a re-cone. Popped it, did an autopsy, found more than what we thought. I am pretty sure I know whats going on when I see metal chunks on the 35 dollar plastic part. ou really cant miss it.

On your last question - Of course not, because I do not build amps, I build subs.

You need to learn how to properly quote.

Regardless, you "knew" what was wrong and decided to totally jack up the sub making any real problem completely unrecognizeable?

On top of that, did you know the basket was bent right away or did you just discover this issue a year later? And you truly think the basket being "bent" less than 1/4" is going to do that to the entire suspension and coil? All it would really do, as far as I know, will make the cone deflect slightly, which it's able to do because it's a paper cone and designed to do that. Not to mention that the cone wouldn't be moving far enough for anything serious to happen anyways (until you plugged it into the wall, free air I'm assuming.)

My last question was a hypothetical that you apparently didn't understand. If something on the sub is messed up, instead of contacting the manufacturer, you decide to totally destroy the entire thing? I don't see the logic in that one.

I've popped one coil on my 9510 and 9515 before. I didn't plug the thing into a wall socket and drop it off a cliff just to make sure it's really f*cked up. I tore it apart and fixed it. Seems like common sense to me.

Edited November 26, 2009 by tommyk90

[NDMstang65 403]

"The coil would clang and bang on the test bench and it would never leave, it would be rebuilt if the aluminum shaving was an issue that was causing everything to be off center...which..it wasn't."

It took a year for the porblem to become an issue. It would have not happened on your test bench.

"If you look under the plastic spacers they are not solid, there are spaces underneath every one of them that are void. Those spacers also compress when the basket is torqued down to the same spec on every screw..keeping all of it linear."

Ok since you are assuming your customers are lying idiots who don't know what the hell they bought, lets try another scenario.

You are putting rims on a car, theres a metal shard on the hub between the rim and the hub, you mount the rim applying the same torque to all lugs. Does this simplify the issue enough for you?

Apparently, we all are deaf bastards driving cars off of cliffs.

We don't use things like Fi and Martin Logan, and DD99 series, and run 52" Plasmas and drive Mercedes Benz for no reason. And deaf to boot. And apparently using outdated stone-age amps with no real value. C'mon, man,

Also the spacers have two shards in two separate peices, PS it is aliminiumn from the frame. It is cast aluminium from the frame. NOT from the former as you suggested. HQ pics are coming so you can see this.

The recone for the sub in question however, is up to Rob. I am inclined to defer to him on this, since it is his, but personally prefer to shop elsewhere in the future for altogether new subs.

I can't tell where the aluminum came from as the pictures that are available are fuzzier then the dice that hung in 1950's vintage cars.

If you sit there and think about it for a minute that cast aluminum piece is VERY very soft. When it is compressed (which it could have very well been on the bottom of the basket) Would still compress into the plastic when it is torqued down. That little shaving of material is from reaming the screw holes out on the casting from the basket. If it is an 18 then they are reamed. If it is a 15 then they are not, neither are the 12's. The 18's come from the casting company in raw form that is coated. All of the finish work is done in house.

It's very possibly that a shaving of aluminum could be under the bottom of the basket. Regardless if it was or if it was not it would not cause that kind of damage, as it is all compressed down when the bolts are torqued to the top plate the plastic has enough give that it would very easily compress and never ever cause an issue. If the coil was rubbing we would have heard it on the test bench...coils just don't start rubbing with time nor do spiders start jumping around over a year period of time either. If you would like I can prove to you next week that those same aluminum shavings would never cause it to be off center once the screws are compressing the assembly with a dial gauge on the lathe if you insist.

Bottom line. User error, in many counts. 1) destroying the sub. 2) never saying anything about the basket being bent in the first place when it was received. 3) Bass boost. 4) The frame was bent either in shipping or dropped outside of that and nothing was done about it. The sub was put in the enclosure with the bent frame therefore leaking around the edge of the gasket...causing the sub to have a huge leaking box and the port not acting as it should. The bass boost and other issues only added to this problem. If something were said before we would gladly have gotten a UPS claim going and got things taken care of ASAP. Nothing was ever said, nor was anything ever done. A bunch of torn up and burned up parts have pictures taken of them expecting us to be able to figure out what is going on...when there's no way we could tell what happened.

Something should have been said first...it wasn't...nothing was ever said until the sub was dead. I can't believe the thing lasted a year with a leaking box with a bunch of power...that's a shock in and of itself, especially considering the amount of abuse that was thrown at it.

Anybody else would say the exact same thing...if nothing was ever said...

You can get a recone if you want.

[Adrian_D 520]

"Dude, one question.

After you determined it to be a "manufacturer defect", why in the HELL would totally destroy the thing?

Now nobody knows what MAY have happened from the factory, and what you caused by plugging the thing into the wall effectively exploding the coil, former, and suspension.

Truly an idiotic move on your part. The minute it started giving me problems I would have pulled it out and got into contact with the manufacturer.

If you have an amp that's stuck in protect, do you short circuit the terminals and fry every component on the board?"

Sure, I can address this.

We knew we had a Problem. This is not the first time I have seen this, I knew that the frame was bent. The sub would tap all the time, On its side, on its other side, face up. You could tap on the cone and it would "ting", sounds like a coil tapping the pole piece. Cool, lets pop it and get a re-cone. Popped it, did an autopsy, found more than what we thought. I am pretty sure I know whats going on when I see metal chunks on the 35 dollar plastic part. ou really cant miss it.

On your last question - Of course not, because I do not build amps, I build subs.

Heard the very same "ting" sound on another subwoofer and it was because of impropper use. Exceeded the limits of the suspension and the spider began to separate from the coil.

Get the pics hosted, I'm curious