Is a watt, a watt, no matter what?

[Sencheezy 689]

Ok, so the tittle may be a little confusing. Sorry about that. But what I am trying to get a answer for is to know whether or not, 1 watt, equals 1 watt? For example, lets say one company claims 1000 watts rms @ 1 ohm. And some other company claims the exact same thing. Now if we set these two amps up to a controlled vehicle/setup, why would one seem louder, or just plain oh better than the other? Obviously the main possiblity would be because someone is not providing that 1000 watts, but lets say we testing both amps the exact same way, with sophisticated equipment and techniques, to find out that they are putting out exactly 1000 watts. Then what could be the reason? The reason I ask because I see all the time that some amp pricing are wayyy more then others, offering the exact same power, if not less. I can see maybe the material costing, maybe wanting more profiting, paying for the name in other words, IDK

So again, I ask, is there a quality difference in the watts that different companies may or may not offer within their amplifiers?

If any one cares, my personal experience with this. I had a 18" btl, no extra batt, stock alt, 4gauge wiring, same box, same vehicle, exact same everything. I began with a PA 3000bd, which claims 2300 watts rms @ 1ohm. Then moved on to a Arc Audio SE 2150 that rates 600 watts @ 2ohms. I payed 300$ for the PA, I think they retail for 450ish, (IDK) and then I payed 300 for the AA as well, which retails at 1000$ So why would the Arc Audio cost over twice as much, with less then half the power that PA offers? But yet, the AA sounded 5x's better then the PA, louder, cleaner, smoother, just better!

There are many variables that I am unaware most likely, which is why I am asking for your opinion, I'm looking to learn something here

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sencheezy

[Duran 387]

I'm no EE, but ff they are both EXACTLY 1Kw, and distortion levels are equal, they should sound the same.

[Sencheezy 689]

And thats what I was thinking... Hmmm, but surely, even if Power Acoustics was off or over rating their amps, it couldn't have been off by more than half??? At-least I wouldn't hope so, which is why I was confused to why the AA sounded better. Also after seeing high end amplifiers, like, what do they offer in their power if its all the same, assuming that a watt equals a watt, no matter what. Take arc audio's 4k amp for instances, why does it cost twice as much as a RF 4k? everybody knows that they both do their rated power, and then some. So why such a huge price difference if 4k watt is 4k watts? Maybe its the technology that it takes to get to that 4k, but even so, what spend so much resources on a product if you can get the exact same output with cheaper materials?

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sencheezy

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

A watt is a watt and both will sound the same apples to apples -same distortion levels, settings, etc. As for pricing, any product is worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it.

Lots of different opinions on this subject tho.

[Impious 1,476]

"A watt is a watt" is the wrong way to word what you are trying to express.

What you are trying to ask is if there is anything intrinsic to an amplifier or amplifier design that would inherently make two otherwise identical amplifiers "sound" different.

The important performance characteristics of an amplifier can basically be broken down to: Power, gain, frequency response, noise, and distortion. There are no other mystical properties to an amplifier itself (other than built in processing features such as crossovers, etc) that will affect the sound. If two amplifiers "sound" different, one of those 5 characteristics must necessarily have been affected in an audible manor. If one of those 5 characteristics are not affected or significantly different enough to cause an audible change in sound, then no....there won't be an audible difference in sound from the amplifier. This is includes amplifier "class" (the old A/B vs D debate, etc). You are not going to hear a difference in amplifier class that is not capable of being represented by one of those categories.

Some people claim all sorts of crazy things about the intrinsic "sound quality" properties of an amplifier or certain components within an amplifier. All you have to ask yourself is.....Do one of these mystical properties or components directly affect the power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion in such a way that would cause an audible change in sound? If the answer is no, then what they are proposing is not going to audibly affect the sound of the amplifier regardless of what else they claim.

Certainly there are reasons for purchasing a more expensive amplifier. Reliability, features, aesthetics, prestige, customer support, warranty, etc etc.

EDIT: And I'll add that amplifiers are fairly well understood beasts. Getting a flat frequency response and inaudible distortion is a fairly trivial task. So really, unless the amplifier was either intentionally designed with a non-flat FR or they simply cheaped out on design, most differences in amplifier "sound" are going to come down to a difference in power output or system settings. There's no reason to purchase an amplifier based on "sound characteristics". Purchase based on power output, build quality, features and your budget and customer service/warranty requirements.

[Impious 1,476]

Also keep in mind Arc rates the SE series @ .03% distortion, whereas most other amplifiers are rated @ 1% distortion. So, assuming their ratings are accurate, you are going to get more than 600w of power out of the SE if measured at the same 1% THD measurement that the majority of other amplifiers are rated at. How much more, I don't know. But it'll be more than 600w @ 1% THD.

[ford302redneck 15]

One reason one amp could of louder than other if both have same rating is because there is no real standard for rating.

Also, some companies underrate and some overrate.

When you pay for a amp, you usually buying other various reasons. If its quality, size, costumer service or anything else you can think of.

That's all I'm going to say on this subject.

If all watts was created equal, there wouldn't be a need for different classes and or different type of components that are used.

I'll let somebody else explain, as I don't want to give out misleading info because I don't exactly have the correct answer.

[Sencheezy 689]

Yes, I understand that there is just wayy too many opinions on the subject, which is why I tried to make it as detailed as I can to get the answer I am looking for. Which it seems my assumption is right, if a controlled setup stays the same, and the only variable that changes is the amplifiers, then why would there be different outcomes?

But still, why would a company charge so much more than others. If we were to use the analogy that a apple is a apple. The price would change on several factors, to name a few, maybe where the apple is from, how large is the apple, where is it shipping too, who is delivering the apple, etc... I'm not sure if I am making my question clear enough I guess I just don't see why would two separate companies charge two totally different prices, if the cheaper company is offering the exact same thing? Maybe customer service, maybe the name. But that is the obvious, so I just answered my own question... ughhhh, lol.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

Pricing is simple.

If I thought someone would pay $500, why would I charge them $250? I would have to sell twice as many to make the same profit.

Marketing.

[ford302redneck 15]

"A watt is a watt" is the wrong way to word what you are trying to express.

What you are trying to ask is if there is anything intrinsic to an amplifier or amplifier design that would inherently make two otherwise identical amplifiers "sound" different.

The important performance characteristics of an amplifier can basically be broken down to: Power, gain, frequency response, noise, and distortion. There are no other mystical properties to an amplifier itself (other than built in processing features such as crossovers, etc) that will affect the sound. If two amplifiers "sound" different, one of those 5 characteristics must necessarily have been affected in an audible manor. If one of those 5 characteristics are not affected or significantly different enough to cause an audible change in sound, then no....there won't be an audible difference in sound from the amplifier. This is includes amplifier "class" (the old A/B vs D debate, etc). You are not going to hear a difference in amplifier class that is not capable of being represented by one of those categories.

Some people claim all sorts of crazy things about the intrinsic "sound quality" properties of an amplifier or certain components within an amplifier. All you have to ask yourself is.....Do one of these mystical properties or components directly affect the power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion in such a way that would cause an audible change in sound? If the answer is no, then what they are proposing is not going to audibly affect the sound of the amplifier regardless of what else they claim.

Certainly there are reasons for purchasing a more expensive amplifier. Reliability, features, aesthetics, prestige, customer support, warranty, etc etc.

But wouldn't different type of classes/components amplify differently causing a difference in sound?

I'm not doubting anything. And I'm not saying it does. I'm just simply asking because other people could have a similar question.

[Sencheezy 689]

Thanks for the replies, I was typing my respond the same time you guys were hehe ^^ ok, well yea, that does help me understand better. hmmmmmmm. Interesting. So what makes a quality amp, is how it performs under certain circumstances? Could that be a general but correct answer?

[Impious 1,476]

Yes, I understand that there is just wayy too many opinions on the subject, which is why I tried to make it as detailed as I can to get the answer I am looking for. Which it seems my assumption is right, if a controlled setup stays the same, and the only variable that changes is the amplifiers, then why would there be different outcomes?

But still, why would a company charge so much more than others. If we were to use the analogy that a apple is a apple. The price would change on several factors, to name a few, maybe where the apple is from, how large is the apple, where is it shipping too, who is delivering the apple, etc... I'm not sure if I am making my question clear enough I guess I just don't see why would two separate companies charge two totally different prices, if the cheaper company is offering the exact same thing? Maybe customer service, maybe the name. But that is the obvious, so I just answered my own question... ughhhh, lol.

What's really going to bake your noodle is the fact that some amplifiers on the market use the exact same board with slightly different components used....but one can cost 2x or more the price of the other.

Arc Audio being one of those brands. They're Zeff designed boards, companies such as Clarion and Cerwin Vega have offered essentially identical amplifiers at half the price. So why do people still buy the Arcs?

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

So why do people still buy the Arcs?

They carry around their best ATM receipt and have special ears.

[Sencheezy 689]

Pricing is simple.

If I thought someone would pay $500, why would I charge them $250? I would have to sell twice as many to make the same profit.

Marketing.

So pricing amplifiers is like pricing gas?

edit: lol just kidding, I know their not, and I'm just kidding.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sencheezy

[Impious 1,476]

But wouldn't different type of classes/components amplify differently causing a difference in sound?

Is it possible for different amplifier classes or different components to cause a difference in sound? Sure, it's possible......IF the power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion are audibly affected.

Realistically speaking, amplifier classes are evolved to the point that prior deficiencies have been solved so there's not going to be an audible difference in the FR, noise or distortion in an amplifier of decent design. So in the end, it's going to come down to power and system settings.

Different components......all you really need in amplifier (aside from reliability and longevity) is a flat FR and inaudible noise and distortion. If those qualifications are met with two different sets of various components, and power output is unchanged, what is going to make the amplifiers sound different? Certainly you could change components and have an FR that's no longer flat, audible but pleasing distortion, etc. But it has to impact one of those factors to be audible. Some people claim that X capacitors "widen the stage" and create a "warm, smooth midrange". Really? What changed to cause this? If it wasn't power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion.....then nothing.

[Shogen 325]

Yea, well the main thing I think it involves is marketing and word of mouth "false claims" that keep some companies rated higher than others... Build quality is a factor only up to a certain price... After a certain amount of dollars, unless it's bullet proof I can't care too much...

[ford302redneck 15]

Yes, I understand that there is just wayy too many opinions on the subject, which is why I tried to make it as detailed as I can to get the answer I am looking for. Which it seems my assumption is right, if a controlled setup stays the same, and the only variable that changes is the amplifiers, then why would there be different outcomes?

But still, why would a company charge so much more than others. If we were to use the analogy that a apple is a apple. The price would change on several factors, to name a few, maybe where the apple is from, how large is the apple, where is it shipping too, who is delivering the apple, etc... I'm not sure if I am making my question clear enough I guess I just don't see why would two separate companies charge two totally different prices, if the cheaper company is offering the exact same thing? Maybe customer service, maybe the name. But that is the obvious, so I just answered my own question... ughhhh, lol.

Not many companies offer the same thing as another company.

If you talking about 3000 watts vs 3000watts, that's different, than the exact same product.

Take Sundown vs Audiopipe. Sundown's 1500d is 500dollars at MAP iirc. The Audiopipe is 200 dollars.

One the Sundown is a dealer only based company, so therefore you have Jake selling to the dealers, then the dealer has to make a profit.

Vs the Audiopipe, the actually person your buying it from doesn't make hardly anything off the amp. And they can do that because they don't have near the costs that a actually retail shop does.

Two, the Sundown comes with a 2 year warranty, and is transferable if/when you sell it.

You would get lucky to get a warranty a few months down the road with the Audiopipe.

You get the point. There are more reasons but no need to go into great detail. Also, I just named brands and pricing, those could vary, just had to state something for a example.

[ford302redneck 15]

Yea, well the main thing I think it involves is marketing and word of mouth "false claims" that keep some companies rated higher than others... Build quality is a factor only up to a certain price... After a certain amount of dollars, unless it's bullet proof I can't care too much...

See you don't understand.

Take Audioque, they have pretty cheap prices compared to other name brands. And do you know why?

There direct, no middle man selling the product to make a living.

Most companies don't jack up prices just because they are greedy. I did say most. Key word.

You can't expect a company to make a minimal profit off a amp they have to warranty. If one comes back and they have to replace it, they will lose money. And how do you expect a company to make money if they lose money warranty a product.

I hate when people complain about pricing. This isn't a hobby to many companies. And you can't expect them to give out product. They have to make a living too. And they make sure to cover there ass when something happens to the product.

You can't compare online prices to dealer base prices.

[Sencheezy 689]

Hey ford, to be all honest man, can you leave this thread please, not tryna be a dick or anything, its just, I've read your past few post and well..... Lets just say I don't blame the guys over at SMD for banning you. Just my opinion. No body has complained about pricing, I already made it very clear that I wasn't questioning the price relating to warranty, names, middleman, or any of that. I was simply asking watt for watt question. I believe it is your fault for getting that other thread locked when I was very interested in seeing what more ppl were going to say, then you went to go run your mouth and complain ab what happen to you, WHO CARESSSSSS, go cry to someone that does care. Please. And I would gr8ly appreciate it if you didn't reply anything else on my thread.

Back to topic

I guess the 5 factors impious gave earlier is the answer to my direct question. I was just simply curious to why companies price may change watt for watt related.

[ford302redneck 15]

But wouldn't different type of classes/components amplify differently causing a difference in sound?

Is it possible for different amplifier classes or different components to cause a difference in sound? Sure, it's possible......IF the power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion are audibly affected.

Realistically speaking, amplifier classes are evolved to the point that prior deficiencies have been solved so there's not going to be an audible difference in the FR, noise or distortion in an amplifier of decent design. So in the end, it's going to come down to power and system settings.

Different components......all you really need in amplifier (aside from reliability and longevity) is a flat FR and inaudible noise and distortion. If those qualifications are met with two different sets of various components, and power output is unchanged, what is going to make the amplifiers sound different? Certainly you could change components and have an FR that's no longer flat, audible but pleasing distortion, etc. But it has to impact one of those factors to be audible. Some people claim that X capacitors "widen the stage" and create a "warm, smooth midrange". Really? What changed to cause this? If it wasn't power, gain, frequency response, noise or distortion.....then nothing.

You a good point.

I've always heard different things by different people.

SQ people seems to be the worst when it comes to differences in sound.

I've once heard adding a cap was only good to be used for SQ, because of some outrageous reason. I loled at that.

[ford302redneck 15]

Hey ford, to be all honest man, can you leave this thread please, not tryna be a dick or anything, its just, I've read your past few post and well..... Lets just say I don't blame the guys over at SMD for banning you. Just my opinion. No body has complained about pricing, I already made it very clear that I wasn't questioning the price relating to warranty, names, middleman, or any of that. I was simply asking watt for watt question. I believe it is your fault for getting that other thread locked when I was very interested in seeing what more ppl were going to say, then you went to go run your mouth and complain ab what happen to you, WHO CARESSSSSS, go cry to someone that does care. Please. And I would gr8ly appreciate it if you didn't reply anything else on my thread.

Back to topic

I guess the 5 factors impious gave earlier is the answer to my direct question. I was just simply curious to why companies price may change watt for watt related.

The person I quoted in my reply just did say something about pricing. So where did you did nobody said anything about it.

Everything I posted in this thread has been on topic. So where do you come off saying I'm not posting on topic?

As far as that other thread, I wouldn't of said anything but Steve took a little jab that SSA was up tight and to serious. Yet over here, this forum is about giving out proper information instead of watered down info.

If you don't want anybody else but the people who can give you answers to reply, you should PM them.

Don't waste forum space if you don't want other people to comment and ask questions.

[Shogen 325]

Yea, well the main thing I think it involves is marketing and word of mouth "false claims" that keep some companies rated higher than others... Build quality is a factor only up to a certain price... After a certain amount of dollars, unless it's bullet proof I can't care too much...

See you don't understand.

Take Audioque, they have pretty cheap prices compared to other name brands. And do you know why?

There direct, no middle man selling the product to make a living.

Most companies don't jack up prices just because they are greedy. I did say most. Key word.

You can't expect a company to make a minimal profit off a amp they have to warranty. If one comes back and they have to replace it, they will lose money. And how do you expect a company to make money if they lose money warranty a product.

I hate when people complain about pricing. This isn't a hobby to many companies. And you can't expect them to give out product. They have to make a living too. And they make sure to cover there ass when something happens to the product.

You can't compare online prices to dealer base prices.

Wasn't necessarily complaining about pricing but merely mentioning that sometimes the "phantom effect" keeps some companies looking good compared to others sometimes. Obviously none of these companies do this for pure enjoyment, its a business for a reason. If I can get a better price for a certain product I won't always take it because it might not be worth the price difference when you know you might get better service, authorized warranty and all that other good stuff that comes along with it...

Point is, my main take on it is quality and needs... I won't be looking at a 3k amplifier and expect it to be priced at the same price as a 500 watt amplifier just because of a name... There is more to it and sometimes nothing qualifying some price differences.. That is all... As vague as it sounds..

[Sencheezy 689]

I DO want other people to comment. I want all of SSA members to comment back except for you. I don't like to single out people like, that, kuz then I only have that person and my opinion, I'm a very open minded person, which I am asking for answer from people on this forum (except for you). The way you reply can be founded very offensive. Just rather not have you respond thats all.

[ford302redneck 15]

Yea, well the main thing I think it involves is marketing and word of mouth "false claims" that keep some companies rated higher than others... Build quality is a factor only up to a certain price... After a certain amount of dollars, unless it's bullet proof I can't care too much...

See you don't understand.

Take Audioque, they have pretty cheap prices compared to other name brands. And do you know why?

There direct, no middle man selling the product to make a living.

Most companies don't jack up prices just because they are greedy. I did say most. Key word.

You can't expect a company to make a minimal profit off a amp they have to warranty. If one comes back and they have to replace it, they will lose money. And how do you expect a company to make money if they lose money warranty a product.

I hate when people complain about pricing. This isn't a hobby to many companies. And you can't expect them to give out product. They have to make a living too. And they make sure to cover there ass when something happens to the product.

You can't compare online prices to dealer base prices.

Wasn't necessarily complaining about pricing but merely mentioning that sometimes the "phantom effect" keeps some companies looking good compared to others sometimes. Obviously none of these companies do this for pure enjoyment, its a business for a reason. If I can get a better price for a certain product I won't always take it because it might not be worth the price difference when you know you might get better service, authorized warranty and all that other good stuff that comes along with it...

Point is, my main take on it is quality and needs... I won't be looking at a 3k amplifier and expect it to be priced at the same price as a 500 watt amplifier just because of a name... There is more to it and sometimes nothing qualifying some price differences.. That is all... As vague as it sounds..

I did go a tad overboard with my reply.

Just so many people complain about pricing on a dealer based company when internet company is so much cheaper.

I just wanted to make that point. Didn't really mean you was the only complaining, but its plenty common.

[ford302redneck 15]

I DO want other people to comment. I want all of SSA members to comment back except for you. I don't like to single out people like, that, kuz then I only have that person and my opinion, I'm a very open minded person, which I am asking for answer from people on this forum (except for you). The way you reply can be founded very offensive. Just rather not have you respond thats all.

Why don't you go cry about it then? Talking about going off topic and crying to somebody that cares

Talk about whining.

Once you posted this thread, you don't have much control in who replies and what said. This isn't just your thread anymore once you made it public(to this forum). And I'm apart of this forum if you like it or not. And I got the right to read and reply to any open thread. Only people who can tell me not to reply is, Mods and Admins. Seeing your neither, I can't say I'm going to listen.

But I'm sure you'll go whine to somebody I won't leave your thread alone, but I probably would have if you just kept your mouth shut.