Center Channel

[Randal Johnson 544]

Ideally, there is no "rear ambience." That would simply be a reflection, something you don't want.

I you have it in a IMAX theatre, why shouldn't it be in your vehicle ?? Wouldn't be the same if it was missing ...

DO you sit in your truck to watch movies?

Are you competing in the "best theater experience" class of "SQ" ocmpetitions?

Nobody is saying you can not do it, and others have with success, but we get into the objective versus subjective debate yet again, like always and any time you bring judging and human ears into the equation, all objectivity goes out the window.

If could afford the electronics to watch movies, yes I would ...

Yes, I am in Super Modified Class in USACI and Modex class in MECA ...

Yea, aparently SSA is saying it can't be done ...

This is the game I want to play in, so just like any other game, I have to play by their rules ... just the way it is ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

Have you heard Richard's car? He does everything with delays so it sounds like everything is in front of you.

I'm sorry bro, What Richard are we talking about ??

[nem 2,019]

Have you heard Richard's car? He does everything with delays so it sounds like everything is in front of you.

I'm sorry bro, What Richard are we talking about ??

Clark

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

We aren't saying it isn't possible. Prestige's fat rat. Used a center channel because of imaging issues due to the seating arrangements of it being a van. However Nolan was using the proper processing to accomplish it.

I am not a competitor or sq expert, and honestly have no passion for it. However because of who I worked for I was around the likes of steve brown, Gary Biggs, mark fakuda, Brian smictt(sp?), so I understand the concept. I just hate to see you start cutting up your dash without fully understanding what is involved in what you are trying to do.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Ideally, there is no "rear ambience." That would simply be a reflection, something you don't want.

I you have it in a IMAX theatre, why shouldn't it be in your vehicle ?? Wouldn't be the same if it was missing ...

DO you sit in your truck to watch movies?

Are you competing in the "best theater experience" class of "SQ" ocmpetitions?

Nobody is saying you can not do it, and others have with success, but we get into the objective versus subjective debate yet again, like always and any time you bring judging and human ears into the equation, all objectivity goes out the window.

If could afford the electronics to watch movies, yes I would ...

Yes, I am in Super Modified Class in USACI and Modex class in MECA ...

Yea, aparently SSA is saying it can't be done ...

This is the game I want to play in, so just like any other game, I have to play by their rules ... just the way it is ...

Nobody said it can't be done, and why do you always make these threads? You pose a question, then when you don't get the answer you want, you dance around everything and it always ends up with you twisting shit around. You're like a teenage girl who doesn't get her way and throws a fit.

Here's a question for you; since you know guys who have "successfully" used rear speakers and center channels in their cars, why don't you ask them since they know what the fuck they are doing? OR better yet, why don't you ask the judges how to do it and what they want to hear. . .

[Randal Johnson 544]

Have you heard Richard's car? He does everything with delays so it sounds like everything is in front of you.

I'm sorry bro, What Richard are we talking about ??

Clark

ok bro, sorry ...

according to http://www.usdaudio.com/sw/cars/ ... The Buick Grand National and the Acura Legend info does not say anything about processors and time alignment, just badd asss EQs and crossovers ...

EQ and Crossover Rack

The EQs and Crossover used in the Grand National were modified studio pieces. These rack mount pieces needed a custom rack made for them if they were going into the car. This is a picture of that rack.

Two 30 band, 1/3 octave mono equalizers were located on the left side of the car. Next to them was an electronic crossover.

And yes sir, I got the absolute pleasure to demo both cars ... EVERYONE in Car Audio should do it !!!

[Randal Johnson 544]

We aren't saying it isn't possible. Prestige's fat rat. Used a center channel because of imaging issues due to the seating arrangements of it being a van. However Nolan was using the proper processing to accomplish it.

I am not a competitor or sq expert, and honestly have no passion for it. However because of who I worked for I was around the likes of steve brown, Gary Biggs, mark fakuda, Brian smictt(sp?), so I understand the concept. I just hate to see you start cutting up your dash without fully understanding what is involved in what you are trying to do.

I understand this sir ... The reason I went and got a test dummy dash ...

Ideally, there is no "rear ambience." That would simply be a reflection, something you don't want.

I you have it in a IMAX theatre, why shouldn't it be in your vehicle ?? Wouldn't be the same if it was missing ...

DO you sit in your truck to watch movies?

Are you competing in the "best theater experience" class of "SQ" ocmpetitions?

Nobody is saying you can not do it, and others have with success, but we get into the objective versus subjective debate yet again, like always and any time you bring judging and human ears into the equation, all objectivity goes out the window.

If could afford the electronics to watch movies, yes I would ...

Yes, I am in Super Modified Class in USACI and Modex class in MECA ...

Yea, aparently SSA is saying it can't be done ...

This is the game I want to play in, so just like any other game, I have to play by their rules ... just the way it is ...

Nobody said it can't be done, and why do you always make these threads? You pose a question, then when you don't get the answer you want, you dance around everything and it always ends up with you twisting shit around. You're like a teenage girl who doesn't get her way and throws a fit.

Here's a question for you; since you know guys who have "successfully" used rear speakers and center channels in their cars, why don't you ask them since they know what the fuck they are doing? OR better yet, why don't you ask the judges how to do it and what they want to hear. . .

I only wanted to know if this type of install has been done ... clearly stated in my first post ...

Has anyone ever put an center channel in a late 90s model Chevy / GMC ??? Truck or SUV (same dash literally where the defroster vents are concerned) ...

I know there will be ALOT of work to go into this ... most likely will never happen, but, you never know...

I'm not really concerned about it helping or hurting my stage and image at this time ...

I'm just interested to see if it has been done ... I'm considering either a 5.25 or 6.5 driver (full range) ...

Thanks in advance ...

and yes, I make my rounds at EVERY Competition ... I talk to every SQ competitor I can and demo all their vehicles

and especially the judges ...

and actually, everyone has been very professional and curtious in this thread ... thank you guys !!!

[Randal Johnson 544]

Here's a question for you; since you know guys who have "successfully" used rear speakers and center channels in their cars, why don't you ask them since they know what the fuck they are doing? OR better yet, why don't you ask the judges how to do it and what they want to hear. . .

I put this thread in SPL & SQ / Fabrication because this is the best place to ask for ON LINE installation suggestions ...

Everyone calls DIYMA the best place for Sound Quality ... I say BULLSHIT ... you all agree ??

I only wanted to know if this installation task has been done before, if so, all suggestion would have helped tremendously ... and it has !!!

If anybody wanted to know anything about a center channel in their vehicle, this thread has exceeded my expectations and explained ALOT of detail about Center channel applications (and the rear channel applications too) ... So sorry sir, I'm not sure where this came from ... please explain ...

Nobody said it can't be done, and why do you always make these threads? You pose a question, then when you don't get the answer you want, you dance around everything and it always ends up with you twisting shit around. You're like a teenage girl who doesn't get her way and throws a fit.

I'm 40 years old, I do not have the energy to throw a fit, I was only asking a installation question ...

And I've looked back a good ways, I don't recall starting any threads like this ...

Sorry to aggrivate you there bro ... but there is ALOT of good information on this thread ...

[Impious 1,476]

In Randy's defense with appropriate attention given to the setup, rear speakers can be a valuable addition to a stereo sound system. A bandpassed, time delayed, attenuated, L-R signal sent to the rear speakers can add things like ambiance and width ques to the sound stage in a stereo setup. Yes, the stage should be in front of you, but not everything you hear from that event comes from in front of you. You can have delayed reflections coming from behind you due to the space the event is recorded/performed in, etc.

It also depends on bandwidth.....at certain frequencies (i.e midbass and subbass), your brain can't identify direction. So having the speakers in front of you or behind you is indifferent as far as your perception goes as long as the time arrival is the same. The speakers in the GN and Harry's Acura were likely lowpassed low enough that front/rear direction was indistinguishable. So then they just had to worry about time arrival (and mounting them at a proper width) to obtain a good stage. Harry's I believe were in the rear deck, Clark's GN had the in the rear quarters. Just because it isn't listed on the website that either of the systems used time alignment doesn't mean they didn't use time alignment.....there are a lot of things "unknown", in dispute or not published about Clark's GN, for example. Even today there are disputes about what speakers the vehicle used and where they were located.

As far as I know, Randy's present system doesn't apply the proper processing to the rear speakers for them to function ideally as ambiance speakers. And they aren't lowpass low enough or time aligned in a manor in which they would do nothing but add to the primary midbass. So if he's happy with it, more power to him but it's not the way I would go about doing things.

I tried to explain some of the issues with his center channel idea. I know he gets upset with M5, so I try to play nice and give him suggestions and explain things without being condescending......but it seems more times than not, he is already dead set on the idea or why his idea will "work" when it's not the best way to go about doing things. So, I think I'm probably done trying to help him.

[Micksh 16]

We used to do a lot of full USAC shows with our shop vehicle, and never lost a show. We used to steal a mono signal off one of the front amps, and use an l-pad to attenuate the center. Worked phenomenally with no other processing. The trick was keeping the level very low, just enough to sense some sound, but not too much that you knew where it was coming from. We used to get a lot of great imaging scores and comments from the judges about how great the depth was, without hurting the width. Like I said, watch the level of it and you will be fine. I realize some people may not like it, but give it a try. You may really like it. Heck, you can even hook up a speaker in a small enclosure first before you try cutting a hole for it, that way if you don't get what you like out of it, no harm done...

Edited July 23, 2011 by Micksh

[///M5 2,833]

As far as I know, Randy's present system doesn't apply the proper processing to the rear speakers for them to function ideally as ambiance speakers. And they aren't lowpass low enough or time aligned in a manor in which they would do nothing but add to the primary midbass. So if he's happy with it, more power to him but it's not the way I would go about doing things.

Exactamundo. Classic to his response to everything, might even ask the right people but misapplies what he thinks he learned terribly. Same is going to happen here or for anything in his car for that matter. He's proven over and over again to not think, nor listen, but draw conclusions that are inappropriate and stick to them.

Of course I said the same thing earlier:

Center channel implies processing. And mono isn't processing. Same with rears though.

And instead of asking for clarification or to understand we got an emotional defensive response that is also misrepresented rehash of something he heard somewhere else talking about ambience which amusingly, straight from Google shows the problem. Addition of noise, is not beneficial ever IMO.

am·bi·ence

noun /ˈambēəns/ 

ambiances, plural; ambiences, plural

1. The character and atmosphere of a place

* - the relaxed ambience of the cocktail lounge is popular with guests

2. Background noise added to a musical recording to give the impression that it was recorded live

[Randal Johnson 544]

Guys, this is all I wanted to know out of this thread ... Installation of a center channel in a truck/suv like mine ...

why are you all making this so difficult ?? If it works, great !!

if not, I never made /or going to make any changes to my stock dash (unless the experiment was a sucess) ...

I'm not really concerned about it helping or hurting my stage and image at this time ...

I'm just interested to see if it has been done ...

Thank you guys for the great comments ...

I do not want this thread to turn into a Sound Quality debate ...

All I wanted to know is if this has ever been done before so I could possible see the outcome and something to go by ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

I even said this again here ...

I put this thread in SPL & SQ / Fabrication because this is the best place to ask for ON LINE installation suggestions ...

Everyone calls DIYMA the best place for Sound Quality ... I say BULLSHIT ... you all agree ??

I only wanted to know if this installation task has been done before, if so, all suggestion would have helped tremendously ... and it has !!!

[Randal Johnson 544]

appropriate attention given to the setup, rear speakers can be a valuable addition to a stereo sound system. A bandpassed, time delayed, attenuated, L-R signal sent to the rear speakers can add things like ambiance and width ques to the sound stage in a stereo setup. Yes, the stage should be in front of you, but not everything you hear from that event comes from in front of you. You can have delayed reflections coming from behind you due to the space the event is recorded/performed in, etc.

It also depends on bandwidth.....at certain frequencies (i.e midbass and subbass), your brain can't identify direction. So having the speakers in front of you or behind you is indifferent as far as your perception goes as long as the time arrival is the same.

And instead of asking for clarification or to understand we got an emotional defensive response that is also misrepresented rehash of something he heard somewhere else talking about ambience which amusingly, straight from Google shows the problem. Addition of noise, is not beneficial ever IMO.

Since you all brought it up, who is correct here ??

Impious said that rears was a valuable addition to a stereo sound system.

M5 said that rears are not beneficial ever IMO.

[///M5 2,833]

appropriate attention given to the setup, rear speakers can be a valuable addition to a stereo sound system. A bandpassed, time delayed, attenuated, L-R signal sent to the rear speakers can add things like ambiance and width ques to the sound stage in a stereo setup. Yes, the stage should be in front of you, but not everything you hear from that event comes from in front of you. You can have delayed reflections coming from behind you due to the space the event is recorded/performed in, etc.

It also depends on bandwidth.....at certain frequencies (i.e midbass and subbass), your brain can't identify direction. So having the speakers in front of you or behind you is indifferent as far as your perception goes as long as the time arrival is the same.

And instead of asking for clarification or to understand we got an emotional defensive response that is also misrepresented rehash of something he heard somewhere else talking about ambience which amusingly, straight from Google shows the problem. Addition of noise, is not beneficial ever IMO.

Since you all brought it up, who is correct here ??

Impious said that rears was a valuable addition to a stereo sound system.

M5 said that rears are not beneficial ever IMO.

read much?? I said "addition of noise is not beneficial ever". Of course if you disagree with that feel free to share why.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Since you all brought it up, who is correct here ??

Impious said that rears was a valuable addition to a stereo sound system.

M5 said that rears are not beneficial ever IMO.

read much?? I said "addition of noise is not beneficial ever". Of course if you disagree with that feel free to share why.

Sir, I'm just tryin to figure out why he thinks the rears are a great idea (in perfect conditions) ...

and you think they are a bad idea (all together) ...

[Impious 1,476]

Guys, this is all I wanted to know out of this thread ... Installation of a center channel in a truck/suv like mine ...

why are you all making this so difficult ?? If it works, great !!

if not, I never made /or going to make any changes to my stock dash (unless the experiment was a sucess) ...

When I see someone propose a plan that isn't necessarily the best route to accomplishing their goals or taking an idea down a less desirable path , I try to give suggestions on how to improve the idea in order to improve the potential success of their results.

Obviously you would rather do things your way than accept suggestions that could either save you time or improve your results.....so ignore us and install away.

Sir, I'm just tryin to figure out why he thinks the rears are a great idea (in perfect conditions) ...

and you think they are a bad idea (all together) ...

To put things a little more literally, I believe your rear install would be classified as the "added noise" situation. Which IMO is also not beneficial, or if it is perceived as beneficial in your particular installation then it means there are significant problems elsewhere in the install/tuning.

You are trying to put our two statements at odds.....when they aren't.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Guys, this is all I wanted to know out of this thread ... Installation of a center channel in a truck/suv like mine ...

why are you all making this so difficult ?? If it works, great !!

if not, I never made /or going to make any changes to my stock dash (unless the experiment was a sucess) ...

When I see someone propose a plan that isn't necessarily the best route to accomplishing their goals or taking an idea down a less desirable path , I try to give suggestions on how to improve the idea in order to improve the potential success of their results.

Obviously you would rather do things your way than accept suggestions that could either save you time or improve your results.....so ignore us and install away.

Sir, I'm just tryin to figure out why he thinks the rears are a great idea (in perfect conditions) ...

and you think they are a bad idea (all together) ...

To put things a little more literally, I believe your rear install would be classified as the "added noise" situation. Which IMO is also not beneficial, or if it is perceived as beneficial in your particular installation then it means there are significant problems elsewhere in the install/tuning.

You are trying to put our two statements at odds.....when they aren't.

I've read your suggestions, and thank you all the time ... you know that ... Its raining now, can't do anything to my truck at this time ...

Not sure why you can talk so bad about my truck, you have never heard it (at a show/event, or under a shade tree with a beer in hand) ...

There is no "added noise" in my truck ... I will pay your way here and back if you come down here and find some ... If you don't find any, you can pay your own way, and owe me the same amount in beer ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

Thank you all for your time and input ... Been fun ...

Can a mod/admin please close my thread ...

Thank you ...