Zcon 18" running 1200rms now, 2400 rms worth it?

[darren700 0]

So i just got my Zcon 18 installed in my 6.7 cu. ft. Net Box. it is tuned at 34hz with 112 sq in port.

Currently its running off US Amps MD1 (1200rms) and gets pretty **** loud.

This is a Great sub, well built and very good looking.

not quite as good sq as my Stereo Integrity Mag V3 but its close.

(that could also be due to the higher tuning as the mag was in a 28hz box.)

Im wondering, would it be worth it to double the power to 2400watts?

for a daily application would it really be much louder? the sub already moves pretty good as is.

If i upgraded it would be to this:

Audioque AQ2200D ($430)

DC Power SPX270 or XP300 Alternator ($590 or $500)

Kinetic HC2000 to replace stock battery ($220) **in addition to my HC2400**

So the total cost of moving up to 2400rms would be around $1200.

is it really worth that much to double the power for daily? realistically what could i expect to see? a 2-3db increase?

thanks for any advice.

Edited October 21, 2012 by darren700

[Kangaroux 47]

You can pick up a 2200 for $300 shipped, there a ton of them around. You shouldn't need an HO alt for just a 2200, especially if you have a sierra. Your stock alt should already be pretty big. I have a 90a stock alt, batcap 2k under the hood and a c&d 270FR (~70AH) in the back. When I'm driving around my voltage usually hovers around 12.8v - 13.0v on songs like thug motivation where it's just constant bass. Amp doesn't get warm at all from it

Edited October 21, 2012 by Kangaroux

[ssh 924]

In my opinion it's definitely not worth it.

You could sell the zcon. Order a pair of 15" zcons, build a new enclosure, and actually end up with a lot more output. The kicker is: you'd end up spending less than $1200

[altoncustomtech 773]

I agree. Wouldn't spend the money on something unless I know for certain I need it, you should do the same. Also, you really need to think about what you're asking. 2 or 3dB really is about all the difference you could get from doubling the power and that's in a perfect world. For daily listening, do you really listen to it cranked up ALL the time? I listen to mine in the 1/2 to 3/4 of full area most of the time and knowing that couldn't justify having spending any big money for that little bit of gain. Sure, if you were chasing numbers, or otherwise needing every last drop of dB you can squeeze out of it doing so would make sense. Considering things like power compression and amplifier efficiency will limit the difference it will really make.

[Impious 1,476]

Definitely not worth spending the money for that particular upgrade, especially for the minimal audible difference in a daily driver.

[ricksi30 923]

Agreed, I played the more power game for too long. It's a losing battle unless you are competing. My next amp will be a good quality 1000-1500 watt amp, and then I'm done. (I hope)

[SMpaintball78 58]

the zcon will sound damn good if u put it on 1200.. but if u really want it to shine and let it do what its made to do, u need atleast 2k IMO im running a sundown 3k to my zcon.. lovessss it. not saying it dont get warm, but it never smells or nothing.

[Impious 1,476]

the zcon will sound damn good if u put it on 1200.. but if u really want it to shine and let it do what its made to do, u need atleast 2k IMO

Statements such as this make absolutely no sense. The difference between 1200w and 2kw is 2.2db before power compression, which is going to be atleast 1db at that power level. So the difference is going to be for the most part inaudible.

[ricksi30 923]

the zcon will sound damn good if u put it on 1200.. but if u really want it to shine and let it do what its made to do, u need atleast 2k IMO

Statements such as this make absolutely no sense. The difference between 1200w and 2kw is 2.2db before power compression, which is going to be atleast 1db at that power level. So the difference is going to be for the most part inaudible.

Agreed, and it doesn't need a certain amount of power to "shine"

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

The question to be answered first is the sub moving to xmax in the current box with the current power.

If the sub is only moving half the xmax with the current power and more power will push it to xmax then it would be equivalent to adding another sub. (Not taking power compression and such into account of course)

On the other hand if the sub is already reaching xmax more power is pointless.

[darren700 0]

thanks for the advice guys . i think im gonna stay with 1200for now. gotta get a feel for the zcon before'i decide. but it does seem like its moving at least 3/4 in so there is probably a bit more headroom.

[Impious 1,476]

The question to be answered first is the sub moving to xmax in the current box with the current power.

If the sub is only moving half the xmax with the current power and more power will push it to xmax then it would be equivalent to adding another sub. (Not taking power compression and such into account of course)

On the other hand if the sub is already reaching xmax more power is pointless.

One important factor related to this discussion is not just where he is in relation to Xmax, but also how much power he plans to add since we can calculate the difference in acoustic output. In this case he asked about doubling power which would be a difference of 3db before power compression. Based on the power level it's pretty safe to assume he's going to have several db of power compression occurring as well, which is going to nullify most projected increase in output. So really, we can ignore for a moment where he is in relation to Xmax and still presume the upgrade to be a waste of money for a daily driver.

[pmureika 31]

thanks for the advice guys . i think im gonna stay with 1200for now. gotta get a feel for the zcon before'i decide. but it does seem like its moving at least 3/4 in so there is probably a bit more headroom.

Why do a zcon when a xcon will be enough plus some?

[ssh 924]

thanks for the advice guys . i think im gonna stay with 1200for now. gotta get a feel for the zcon before'i decide. but it does seem like its moving at least 3/4 in so there is probably a bit more headroom.

Why do a zcon when a xcon will be enough plus some?

That's sort of contradictory to what has just been discussed. One could ask: "Why not use a zcon?" Would your response be: "because he doesn't have enough power?"

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Depending on the variables, yes and no. It's going to come down to what environment the driver was designed to work in.

If the sub's motor was designed to push the cone to xmax at 2400 watts in say a 5 ft box tuned to 32 hertz then you really wouldn't see that much power compression bc the sub has enough motor force to push it that far in that environment.

But then take that same sub and put it in a 3 foot box and then you run into major compression bc the sub just doesn't have enough motor to compensate for the increased "spring" the box is holding onto the sub.

This is fairly easy to calculate using SpeaD. And is how I go about determining how much motor force I need for a given xmax in a given volume at a given tuning frequency.

In other words if the sub has enough motor for his box and tuning and he is only at half xmax it would be the same as just having your headunit volume at half way.

But on the other hand if like impious said if you are already at that point where you the sub just doesn't have any more umph to it then more power will just be wasted as heat.

But as a money stand point 1,200 is a lot just for another 15mm xmax.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

It's a hell of a long process to do it by hand but you can use the below equations to figure by hand.

SI (mks) units. ^ denotes exponentiation. LOG() is base 10.

5.1 Constants

pi = 3.14159265359

c = speed of sound in air (345 m/s)

Ro = density of air (1.18 kg/m^3)

5.2 Closed-Box Systems

Vb = Vas/Vr

Fb = Qr*Fs

F3dB = Qr*Fs*((1/Qb^2-2+((1/Qb^2-2)^2+4)^0.5)/2)^0.5

Fmax = c/(pi*0.83*Dia)

dBpeak = 20*LOG(Amax)

Par = K1/Amax^2

Per = Par/(Gno)

Gno = 10^((SPL-112)/10)

PeakSPL = SPL+10*LOG(PEmax)

Sd = pi*(Dia*0.83)^2/4

Vd = Sd*xmax

Amax = Qb^2/(Qb^2-0.25)^0.5 for Qb >(1/2)^0.5, 1 otherwise

K1 = (4*pi^3*Ro/c)*Fb^4*Vd^2

K2 = 112+10*LOG(K1)

Vr = Qr^2-1

Qr = (1/Qts)/(1/Qb-0.1)

Frequency-dependent equations:

Fr = (F/Fb)^2

dBmag = 10*LOG(Fr^2/((Fr-1)^2+Fr/Qb^2))

Pmax = K1*((Fr-1)^2+(Fr/Qb^2))/(Gno)

SPLmax = K2+40*LOG(F/Fb)

Thermally-limited RMS SPL = PeakSPL+dBmag

5.3 Ported Box Systems

Vb = 20*Qts^3.3*Vas

Fb = (Vas/Vb)^0.31*Fs

F3dB = (Vas/Vb)^0.44*Fs

Fmax = c/(pi*0.83*Dia)

dBpeak = 20*LOG(Qts*(Vas/Vb)^0.3/0.4)

Par = 3*F3dB^4*Vd^2

Per = Par/(Gno)

Gno = 10^((SPL-112)/10)

PeakSPL = SPL+10*LOG(PEmax)

Dmin = (Fb*Vd)^0.5

Lv = 2362*Dv^2/(Fb^2*Vb)-0.73*Dv

Sd = pi*(Dia*0.83)^2/4

Vd = Sd*xmax

K1 = (4*pi^3*Ro/c)*Fs^4*Vd^2

K2 = 112+10*LOG(K1)

Frequency-dependent equations:

Fn2 = (F/Fs)^2

Fn4 = Fn2^2

A = (Fb/Fs)^2

B = A/Qts+Fb/(7*Fs)

C = 1+A+(Vas/Vb)+Fb/(7*Fs*Qts)

D = 1/Qts+Fb/(7*Fs)

E = (97/49)*A

dBmag = 10*LOG(Fn4^2/((Fn4-C*Fn2+A)^2+Fn2*(D*Fn2-B)^2))

Pmax = (K1/Gno)*((Fn4-C*Fn2+A)^2+Fn2*(D*Fn2-B)^2)/(Fn4-E*Fn2+A^2)

SPLmax = K2+10*LOG(Fn4^2/(Fn4-E*Fn2+A^2))

Thermally-limited RMS SPL = PeakSPL+dBmag

[stevemead08 752]

I didn't read all the comments here but I can say that it does NOT take a lot of power for the zcons to get loud. I had 2 18s on 600w each in my wall when I first built it. It was stupid loud. Did extremely well numbers and sounded great.

[darren700 0]

Well i finally got around to setting my gains with the dimm to 1200watts exactly.

I have also solved the last couple vibration problems (had to put foam between the headboard and frame.)

with the gain dialed in to 1200watts @ 50hz it is not nearly as loud as i want it. pushing the gain any higher results in audible clipping so i wont do that (was hard to distinguish before due to truck vibrations)

i also got around to looking at my xmax (was just guessing before), id be lucky if the sub is moving 6-8mm with my amp.

I have therefore decided to upgrade to the aq2200 asap as i feel the extra power will make a big difference since im seeing such small travel now.

Im gonna try it with the electrical i have now, if it cant keep up, ill turn the gain on the 2200 down until i can afford more electrical to back it up.

I also ordered a DC Clamp meter so i can get an idea of exactly how much i am stressing my alt and how much my system is pulling.

Thanks again for the advice all.

[ricksi30 923]

i also got around to looking at my xmax (was just guessing before), id be lucky if the sub is moving 6-8mm with my amp.

And how did you go about measuring that? At what frequency did you measure it at?

[darren700 0]

not very scientifically, just with my finger lol, i put it about 1/4 way (6mm) from the surround and played music, and it was hitting my finger, any further and it wasnt, definately no-where near 1/2" or 12mm of travel. does anyone have a more accurate way to measure xmax? maybe a ruler and video camera + slo mo?

[darren700 0]

it just occured to me that i should have been looking at how much the dust cap moves rather than the surround. i will see how much the dust cap is traveling tonight.

[Impious 1,476]

Don't worry about trying to measure excursion. It's not going to happen accurately without expensive equipment.

Set the gain by ear and listen for stress and any stickiness from the coil.

[ssh 924]

Don't worry about trying to measure excursion. It's not going to happen accurately without expensive equipment.

Set the gain by ear and listen for stress and any stickiness from the coil.

Stinkiness.

[CommGuru 0]

Maths.

I have been looking for this info for a while to build an Excel app for figuring out all of these goodies for box building. Thank you sir.

[Impious 1,476]

Don't worry about trying to measure excursion. It's not going to happen accurately without expensive equipment.

Set the gain by ear and listen for stress and any stickiness from the coil.

Stinkiness.

Thank you, that's what I meant.