UFO BTL worth giving up?

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I have been considering trading up the BTL, as in, the woofer, and a chunk of $$$ for a LMS Ultra 18. 

I'm only considering on the grounds that it's said to be more accurate down low, much smaller enclosure requirements, and well, it's my dream subwoofer. 

However, I am not so in love with the woofer, that i'll piss away $450 on a trade up for looks alone. 

Has anyone used both woofers in an optimal alignment? There's nothing wrong with my BTL, but I want to pick a woofer and stick with it. I'm sick of the changing equipment and replacing things. So, while i'm in a position, financially, to do so, I thought I would ask for your guys' opinions. 
 

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

I understand how many variables there are, so I'm really just asking anyone who has personally used both woofers.

Edited February 11, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[lithium 358]

the only way to establish what the difference would be to model them. if you dont have a PC post the the correct t/s specs and i or someone else can do it for you. establishing a comparison based on opinion is worthless UNLESS that individual ran the same subs on the same power in the same enclosures and in the same vehicle you're installing this in. then maybe that persons opinion would be worth a shit. 

 

why the ZED audio amps? great amps but a system like this is just asking for theft problems.  why not stick to cheap power, you won't hear a difference. 

[SpeakerBoy 64]

http://tcsounds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/LMSU-18-Owner-Manual.pdf


I can't find a link to the UFO BTL, just a bunch of forum threads also asking for UFO specs. 

I woulda copy pasted the specs, but that PDF was all I found on mobile.

What else should I put up to model them?

[lithium 358]

http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/wizart383/media/btlspects.png.html

 

 found them

[SpeakerBoy 64]

Is that legible on pc? On my phone it's blurrrry.

[smashedz28 110]

I would like to see the graphs posted here. I'm curious about the subs your talking about but way more interested to see what can be drawn from modeling them. Seems so many damn variables modeling is starting to seem just as useless to me.

[lithium 358]

yep. 

 

i'm not the very knowledgeable when it comes to subwoofer and enclosure modeling but the LMS really looks like a sub designed for home theater. if you look at the product page on tcsounds.com you can see lots of low tune recommendations. i'll post a few. 

[lithium 358]

I would like to see the graphs posted here. I'm curious about the subs your talking about but way more interested to see what can be drawn from modeling them. Seems so many damn variables modeling is starting to seem just as useless to me.

 

how do you think products are designed in the first place? 

[lithium 358]

ok first pic. 

 

i thought I would start with the box recommendations posted on the tc sounds page and compare that what a btl enclosure usually is. 

 

Edited February 11, 2014 by lithium

[lithium 358]

i'll post some more later tonight. looking at  the numbers, its clear what these drivers were designed for. 

[95Honda 486]

I would stick with something and see it ALL the way through to the end. 

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I would stick with something and see it ALL the way through to the end.

That's the idea I'm just in a rare situation where I can actually afford to get it. I'm conflicted. The bruiser is amazing, I have just always wanted the ultra

I aim to tune low, 26-30hz has always been my preference, anything higher tends to disappoint on slowed music.

It's interesting you say to skip the minotaurs. I was set on running all Zed amps, but it'd be the same to the ear to just snatch a crescendo 3500 and run it low gain? Loudness will be there, for fucks sake, it's a BTL, lol. I'm curious about clarity. If it's the same, that's heaven to my wallet.

Edited February 12, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[lithium 358]

watts are watts. you're worried about clarity in the frequency range the human ear is actually not very good at discerning. 

[lithium 358]

in terms of distortion your music tracks that are processed to fuck with slowed music and shit are probably going to contribute more than the amps. 

[SpeakerBoy 64]

in terms of distortion your music tracks that are processed to fuck with slowed music and shit are probably going to contribute more than the amps.

I pretty much owe you $800 how's a raincheck >.>

I appreciate the advice

What am I looking at with the Transfer Function Magnitude graph?

Edited February 12, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[Sencheezy 689]

Transfer Function

As the Polk/MOMO subwoofers are optimized for acoustic suspension enclosures, we suggest you use this type of design. The acoustic suspension cabinet is a sealed airtight box, and is the easiest box to build. It also is a very predictable enclosure with easily calculated parameters, and it has a smooth natural sound. Properly built acoustic suspension cabinets have a flat frequency response that begins rolling off at 12 dB per octave at the frequencies below its cabinet resonance. This works very well inside a car because of a natural phenomenon called "room gain" that gives you roughly a 12 dB per octave increase in bass frequencies. You can roughly calculate at what frequency this gain begins by using the equation F= 565/L, F is the frequency at which bass gain begins, and L is the longest dimension of your "room."
If, for example, you measured the longest dimension of your car as 5.65 ft., the room gain begins at 565/5.65 or 100 Hz. If your goal was perfectly flat frequency response you would design your cabinet for this particular car to have a resonance frequency of 100 Hz. Since most people want more bass than a flat frequency response yields, tuning the cabinet at a lower frequency, say 50 Hz, would give you a gain of 12 dB per octave between 100 and 50 Hz and flat response from 50 Hz down. The larger the cabinet, the lower the resonant frequency, and the lower the efficiency. Two identical systems will sound very different in a Honda vs. a Cadillac. The bigger the car the lower the frequency at which room gain begins.

 

 

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/61663-knowledge-is-key/

 

TF is Cabin Gain.That graph isn't 100% liable  as each vehicle has a different TF.

 

As noted, please reflect to image below

 

[///M5 2,833]

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

[Sencheezy 689]

 

 

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

 

You are looking for, I fogret the proper term, forgive me, but smoothness. From your sub stage to your front stage. In order to do so, you need to get rid of your dip and values within your sub's output. You will only be able to do this by RTA/software, and with several enclousures. My advice, build large. For the BTL, this would be 8cubes NET, with plenty of port, 120-150 cuin. And tune according coherdinately with your vehicle's Transfer Function. When you have an eq on your sub, you want to bring down the peak with that your port will offer, usally around tuning, so that it blends in well with the rest of the frequency response of your sub's output. Obviously, this will bring down max SPL, but it will definately give you a better sound or the "sq" you are looking for. I hope this helps.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Sencheezy

[///M5 2,833]

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

Ok, now we are in the right arena. First though, clarify. What do YOU mean by better? ie, what can be improved?

[///M5 2,833]

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

You are looking for, I fogret the proper term, forgive me, but smoothness. From your sub stage to your front stage. In order to do so, you need to get rid of your dip and values within your sub's output. You will only be able to do this by RTA/software, and with several enclousures. My advice, build large. For the BTL, this would be 8cubes NET, with plenty of port, 120-150 cuin. And tune according coherdinately with your vehicle's Transfer Function. When you have an eq on your sub, you want to bring down the peak with that your port will offer, usally around tuning, so that it blends in well with the rest of the frequency response of your sub's output. Obviously, this will bring down max SPL, but it will definately give you a better sound or the "sq" you are looking for. I hope this helps.

RTA will be very ineffective at helping outside of helping to quantify the cabin gain. Going to need a narrow band analyzer though and not a 1/3 octave RTA.

First things first though, need to know what to make better. Started subjective and that may be more than enough.

[Sencheezy 689]

 

 

 

 

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

 

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

 

You are looking for, I fogret the proper term, forgive me, but smoothness. From your sub stage to your front stage. In order to do so, you need to get rid of your dip and values within your sub's output. You will only be able to do this by RTA/software, and with several enclousures. My advice, build large. For the BTL, this would be 8cubes NET, with plenty of port, 120-150 cuin. And tune according coherdinately with your vehicle's Transfer Function. When you have an eq on your sub, you want to bring down the peak with that your port will offer, usally around tuning, so that it blends in well with the rest of the frequency response of your sub's output. Obviously, this will bring down max SPL, but it will definately give you a better sound or the "sq" you are looking for. I hope this helps.

 

RTA will be very ineffective at helping outside of helping to quantify the cabin gain. Going to need a narrow band analyzer though and not a 1/3 octave RTA.

First things first though, need to know what to make better. Started subjective and that may be more than enough.

 

 

I was suggesting that he too utilize an RTA to see his peaks and values within his FR from his sub/enclosure. From there, he can use an eq to drop down the peaks, which inherently, smooths out the overall sound. Is this not the proper way to approach this issue at hand?

[Sencheezy 689]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

 

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

 

You are looking for, I fogret the proper term, forgive me, but smoothness. From your sub stage to your front stage. In order to do so, you need to get rid of your dip and values within your sub's output. You will only be able to do this by RTA/software, and with several enclousures. My advice, build large. For the BTL, this would be 8cubes NET, with plenty of port, 120-150 cuin. And tune according coherdinately with your vehicle's Transfer Function. When you have an eq on your sub, you want to bring down the peak with that your port will offer, usally around tuning, so that it blends in well with the rest of the frequency response of your sub's output. Obviously, this will bring down max SPL, but it will definately give you a better sound or the "sq" you are looking for. I hope this helps.

 

RTA will be very ineffective at helping outside of helping to quantify the cabin gain. Going to need a narrow band analyzer though and not a 1/3 octave RTA.

First things first though, need to know what to make better. Started subjective and that may be more than enough.

 

 

I was suggesting that he too utilize an RTA to see his peaks and values within his FR from his sub/enclosure. From there, he can use an eq to drop down the peaks, which inherently, smooths out the overall sound. Is this not the proper way to approach this issue at hand?

 

 

For the sub bass, you are right, he wouldn't necessarily use an RTA, he could use an SPL meter though, to measure whatever his crossover settings are, or expected played FR, i.e. 20-80hz

[SpeakerBoy 64]

 

 

 

I'm after SQ, but with some aggression to it. I guess i'm greedy. If it's even relevant to the question, power will be a pair of Zed Minotaurs. Either will sit in it's optimal enclosure size, a little on the large side, with a removeable port; so I can mess with either after it's said and done.

Then sell the BTO and your big amp and go smaller. Will allow you a budget to make the front stage work. Hardly need a sub even for SQ. Sure it's important, but hardly comparatively.

Power is the last thing you should worry about. Mounting locations and install first.

The output is where i'd like it, downgrading would cost me that.

It's a better sound i'm after. I am going to at least try several new boxes for the BTL before I make any decision, or i'll never forgive myself for passing up a $250 loaded BTL 18

 

You are looking for, I fogret the proper term, forgive me, but smoothness. From your sub stage to your front stage. In order to do so, you need to get rid of your dip and values within your sub's output. You will only be able to do this by RTA/software, and with several enclousures. My advice, build large. For the BTL, this would be 8cubes NET, with plenty of port, 120-150 cuin. And tune according coherdinately with your vehicle's Transfer Function. When you have an eq on your sub, you want to bring down the peak with that your port will offer, usally around tuning, so that it blends in well with the rest of the frequency response of your sub's output. Obviously, this will bring down max SPL, but it will definately give you a better sound or the "sq" you are looking for. I hope this helps.

 

This sounds like it's what i'm searching to do. 

I feel that anything that will match or surpass the output it had on only 700rms in 5 cubes @ 35, is sufficient. So I have PLENTY of room to make adjustments when I have a proper amp, and a sufficient front stage setup. I am looking for FLAT response, as in, it is perceived to be the same volume throughout the spectrum, all the way down to it's lowest register, I believe the lowest note i've ever chased was maybe, 27hz in I Cook (decaf) - OJ da Juiceman. I'm looking for evenness, smoothness, yes. It feels weird to say i'm chasing SQ with a woofer like a BTL, but I am I think; I chose this woofer, because i'm after quality at high output levels.

Edited February 12, 2014 by SpeakerBoy

[///M5 2,833]

Stop using terminology and describe what your setup DOESN'T do. I am pretty sure what you are asking for you won't like...