upgrade to hds300 12 d2 or hxfl 12 d2

[a1sauce47 0]

I've had my alpines for over a year they only got smelly once on a song with super low bass in a crappy ported prefab probably tuned in the 40hz or above range but have got a new box since then and have never had a problem they rarely even get warm now. The amp gain sensitivity is .001 MV to 4 v and my hu has a 2.5 volt preout . have the gain set at exactly half way and have not had an issue .

[pmureika 31]

Sounds like you have some very educated people helping you !

[95Honda 486]

 

Under powering your woofer can lead to damage as the same as over overpowering due to damage from distortion..while they are some that are rated "for example" 1500 watts rms and can handle 2000 watts all day long..Not wise though to give 250 rms to a sub that is over not rated with a 750 rms..really all depends on the manufacture. IMO

 

 

 

No.  Please do not spread this miss-information on this website.  If you need clarification why, I can do that.

[mikel7829 90]

 

 

Under powering your woofer can lead to damage as the same as over overpowering due to damage from distortion..while they are some that are rated "for example" 1500 watts rms and can handle 2000 watts all day long..Not wise though to give 250 rms to a sub that is over not rated with a 750 rms..really all depends on the manufacture. IMO

 

 

 

No.  Please do not spread this miss-information on this website.  If you need clarification why, I can do that.

 

uhh I was talking of clipping and distortion??

[95Honda 486]

I know, makes no difference, power is power.  Unless you exceed the thermal threshold, it doesn't matter.

[mikel7829 90]

 

 

Under powering your woofer can lead to damage as the same as over overpowering due to damage from distortion..while they are some that are rated "for example" 1500 watts rms and can handle 2000 watts all day long..Not wise though to give 250 rms to a sub that is over not rated with a 750 rms..really all depends on the manufacture. IMO

 

 

 

No.  Please do not spread this miss-information on this website.  If you need clarification why, I can do that.

 

Please fill me in..

[mikel7829 90]

I know, makes no difference, power is power.  Unless you exceed the thermal threshold, it doesn't matter.

So clipping and distortion does not damage a woofer,sub,ect ?

[95Honda 486]

Here is the quick down and dirty...

 

The thermal rating is the amount of power the voice coil can handle before thermal failure.

 

If a subwoofer is rated for X wattage thermally, it can handle that power continuously if it is rated correctly.

 

What people fail to realize is that amplifier power is rated as a sine wave, but amplifiers can produce significantly more power with different waveforms.  I.e, an amplifier rated for X sine wave wattage can really produce 2X wattage under certain other signal conditions, if the power supply can keep up.

 

But again, regardless of the waveform, if you do not exceed the thermal threshold of the voicecoil, you are fine.

 

I did an objective test of this 10 years ago CarStereos.org, I don't know if it is archived or not...

[mikel7829 90]

There is alot of debate on this topic. Many believe there is no way to "blow" a sub by underpowering. Others strongly believe by experience that underpowering is the main cause for blown subs as well as other type speakers. Well both are right.....and wrong? how can this be?

It mainly depends on how you view the "cause and effect" and certain technical aspects. Other considerations include the type of amp, quality of the speaker (this doesn't apply just to subs), and how hard [over driving] the listener operates the system.

Now those like myself that think "underpowering" causes problems are not trying to imply that this is the only way to damage a sub. There are thermal and mechanical limits with any speaker and that of course is always a consideration.

Some "blow by underpowering" theorists believe that clipping is the cause of the damage. Some "impossible to blow by underpowering" theorists believe that there is no reason an amp should clip regardless of power and/or that clipping won't damage a speaker. Some simply blame it on the user stating that they are playing the system too loud...which can be the case but "too loud" is another subjective issue, ie: maybe the listener is hard of hearing.

As for the technical aspects regarding clipping you can find a ton of info about that here, other sites or any textbook that deals with A/C- D/C and audio. A clean sine wave viewed on an o-scope or on paper will be curved at the tops and bottoms. This picture of a sine wave, or audio signal contains the following info: Amplitude (power, this is where you see the clipped signal although other properties are involved), Frequency (cycles per second expressed in hertz or hz), period (time) and wavelength (size of the sound wave).

If you are looking at the sinewave from an amp that is clipping the top and bottom curves will appear flat, or cut off. Basically the amp can't produce any more "clean" signal at this point - Some engineers state that the output at that point is DC, or that a portion of it is. All transducers (speakers) don't really take well to DC, not a big fan. When an amp is clipping even though its clean output hit a "ceiling" (won't play the speakers any louder no matter how much more you crank the volume control) the amp is putting out more then its "peak" rated power. Many engineers claim up to 50% higher, some believe even higher and some say "nonsense". Again, confusion so who do we believe? 

Heres my take on it (or opinion if you wish). If the amplifier had enough "clean" power to begin with no clipping would occur. Regardless, whichever theory you side with we are trying to prevent toasting a woofer. Been there, done that.

Many audio engineers tell us that a high powered, quality amplifier won't clip, or at least is very difficult to clip and that you can safely run more rms power to the speaker then it is rated for. I completely agree with this, but within reason.

For example say we have a 50watt RMS amp. If we replace it with a 100watt RMS amp we can expect an increase of 3db output from the speaker. (note that for every doubling of power, or # of speakers you can expect a 3db gain) We need a gain of 10db to be twice as loud. So just to make a 50watt rms speaker play twice as loud we would need to run over 400watts rms to it. Now that may be a bit [sarcasm] overkill in the headroom department but I would see no major crisis in doing this. The potential is there to blow speakers but it would sound so horrendous before they ruptured that even the most ignorant of the ignorant would want to turn it down, unless they are purposely trying to destroy equipment. Start getting greedy and apply 500w - 1000w to that same speaker and you can too easily exceeded it's thermo/mechanical ability. The speaker may not nessecarily blow from clipping in this fashion but can basically self destruct. Been there, done that as well. You will release the "voice coil smoke".

Think of it this way. The speed limit is 65 mph on the highways where I live. But I would not really buy a car that has a top speed of just 65 mph. I want a little "headroom". Now in comparing this to an amp would be why lowering the gain control (assuming it was set properly to begin with) will help, but is in a way it's just a band-aid. The same analogy applied to the car would be that I put an egg under the gas pedel so I can't speed or floor it. It will work, yes, but not always leave a very satisfied customer. (plus I would crack the egg and have a mess..I'd like more power... please)

In my day to day system installs, I find that most of my customers like it LOUD !!!! They trust me to deliver what they want. Afterall, they are paying good money (master installers don't come cheap). Now if a customer has 2 woofers that are rated @ 1000w rms each but want me to install an off-brand flea market amp that says 2000 watts on its casing they assume this will work for them. Well it will amplify and produce audio. The problem in this case is the specs are an outright lie, or at the very least peak @ high distortion levels. And by "distortion" I don't mean the good harmonic kind like with heavy metal guitar. I mean any unwanted audio, or "change in waveform" which is the literal definition of distortion when it occurs with electronics. Hmmm..change in waveform..can this mean clipping?

Now on to reality, perhaps this amp can deliver 100w rms of clean power. Everything I have ever been told about audio would lead me to think this will cause clipping. The amp will send too much "dirty" power to the woofer(s) and cause destruction as the user attempts to enjoy the "2000 watts" of power, which is what they are expecting since the amp is labled so and the woofers are rated to safely handle it.

So, from that example you can see "cause and effect". The fact that the amp is not powerful enough can send  it into clipping, which in turn will send too much "dirty" power (possibly DC) to the woofers. Sooner or later this will cause a problem. If the amplifier had sufficient rms power to begin with the woofers will..... and DO, last for years. Once again, been there, done that, over and over again...oh what a life.

CAUSE:  The amplifier didn't have enough clean power.

EFFECT: Blown woofer(s)

Another factor was the user, agreed. The user likes it really loud. This problem would not occur at moderate listening levels-

CAUSE: User cranked the wiz out of it because they like it loud

EFFECT: Blown woofer(s)

And we haven't even talked about transient response, damping, voltage issues and a host of other goodies. And we won't talk about that here to avoid information overload....we don't want to "clip" our brains

My feelings about this is to simply use an amp with at least  the rms power rating of the speakers (if you can find anything with an accurate or honest spec...good luck), or go higher, within reason. Of course if the end user is not a bass head you can certainly get away with less power. The key is you can't be general in this industry, there are too many factors to take into consideration, especially when dealing with car audio where 2 ohm loads are commonplace, and loads as low as 1ohm and less are sometimes utilized. (this is rarely the case with home audio so I don't pay alot of creed to home audio or musical instrument specialists when dealing with mobile electronics as too many variables exist and the same physics don't always apply, in what other industry do they have off the chart mega wattage and insane spl levels with 12 volts???).

With all this said I hope some clarity can come out of this topic without there being any fights or name calling.

Yes, I might be pathetic and have no life (well, this industry is my life) but the things I sometimes hear regarding this topic bug the crap out of me.

Note that some info here is just my opinion but it is based on books, schooling, seminars, experience and actual events I see all too often. Other info is from professional sources and engineers in the industry.

Replacing speakers until I upgrade the customer to the proper amp,,,, and only then the speakers blow no more. That in itself is enough proof for me and regardless of what anyone believes is causing the problem....I found a solution that WORKS!  MORE RMS POWER!!  My credentials should be apparent.

Thanks for listening everyone. Any feedback, positive or negative is welcome,

[95Honda 486]

 

I know, makes no difference, power is power.  Unless you exceed the thermal threshold, it doesn't matter.

So clipping and distortion does not damage a woofer,sub,ect ?

 

 

Not in the slightest.  Again, I did an objective test of this thermally destroying 40 drivers 10 years ago on CarStereos.org.

 

If you listen to FM radio, you listen to bass with heavy compression and clipping, day in and day out...  If you listen to modern compressed music you listen to clipping.  Etc, Etc, Etc...

[mikel7829 90]

 

 

I know, makes no difference, power is power.  Unless you exceed the thermal threshold, it doesn't matter.

So clipping and distortion does not damage a woofer,sub,ect ?

 

 

Not in the slightest.  Again, I did an objective test of this thermally destroying 40 drivers 10 years ago on CarStereos.org.

 

If you listen to FM radio, you listen to bass with heavy compression and clipping, day in and day out...  If you listen to modern compressed music you listen to clipping.  Etc, Etc, Etc...

 

 this is a debate like evolution....

[95Honda 486]

No it isn't a debate.  You are subjective with your conclusions, I conducted objective testing with controlled variables to complete my conclusion.  I come from an Electrical Engineering background and have worked Operation Testing for the last decade, I base my opinions on fact.

 

Regardless, I am not going to try and convince you or anyone else to change your mind. 

[mikel7829 90]

It is all in the manufacture of the gear...point blank I have seen many fail in my years in this industry..Everybody has their on opinions no harm intended!

[mikel7829 90]

No it isn't a debate.  You are subjective with your conclusions, I conducted objective testing with controlled variables to complete my conclusion.  I come from an Electrical Engineering background and have worked Operation Testing for the last decade, I base my opinions on fact.

 

Regardless, I am not going to try and convince you or anyone else to change your mind. 

Well that cool...like I said no harm intended...I would love to see facts on this i always like to learn..FYI as far as your background goes i din't fall off the turnip truck yesterday  even though I'm a custodian at McDonald's

[a1sauce47 0]

I just have more questions instead of answers at this point

[a1sauce47 0]

I just want to have a louder system without getting a major in subwoofer college

[///M5 2,833]

Need to do a lot more than change subs

[mikel7829 90]

Need to do a lot more than change subs

[a1sauce47 0]

I can't afford to buy a new enclosure new subwoofers and a new amp. I'm far from rich. Alpines are not the loudest sub on the market I know for fact. There is a solution here without re doing my entire system . I'm not interested in getting everything I am working with my current setup and simply want a better subwoofer than alpine type r. I'm getting re directed in so many ways its becoming ridiculous

[puscifer2 27]

Let's back up a few posts. Next chance you get, as lithium stated, measure the port.

[95Honda 486]

It seams confusing because it isn't a simple question...

 

If you can take anything from these threads it is that you need to model to see what will be louder with your current setup, period.  You will either have to figure out how to do that or get someone to do it for you.  Until that happens, you really won't be able to get a better answer.

 

Part of DIY is having to work these problems out.  This is where you save money.  If you can't get the help you need or have the time to learn new skills you will have to pay for a brick-and-motor shop to do it for you.  I wish there was an easier way to do it, but there isn't.

 

So honestly, until you you get this ^^ done, you aren't going to make any progress...

[nigel 148]

I know, makes no difference, power is power. Unless you exceed the thermal threshold, it doesn't matter.

So clipping and distortion does not damage a woofer,sub,ect ?

what I think 95honda is trying to say here is this. if you have a speaker that can handle 1000watts thermally, installed in an optimal alignment, hooked up to say a 200 watt amplifier, that has been driven into full clipping causing 400 watts of output, the voicecoil of the driver will still be able to dissipate the heat even though the signal is clipped. thus the "underpowering" will not harm this driver.

vs.

same speaker and alignment hooked up to an 800 watt amplifier driven to full clipping causing 1600 watts of output, and the driver failing. the failure is due to the speaker not being able to thermally handle 1600 watts, whether it be clean,distorted or clipped, it still would of failed with that level of power. but most people will s

"subjectively" say that due to it being an 800 watt amp, and not realizing what they did, assume "underpowering" caused the failure, or blame it solely on the "clipping" ad opposed to the root cause of too much power being applied.

there are two causes of speaker failure. thermal failure (too much power) or mechanical (over driving it's physical limtations. I.e. bottomming out below tuning in a vented alignment)

[mikel7829 90]

It seams confusing because it isn't a simple question...

 

If you can take anything from these threads it is that you need to model to see what will be louder with your current setup, period.  You will either have to figure out how to do that or get someone to do it for you.  Until that happens, you really won't be able to get a better answer.

 

Part of DIY is having to work these problems out.  This is where you save money.  If you can't get the help you need or have the time to learn new skills you will have to pay for a brick-and-motor shop to do it for you.  I wish there was an easier way to do it, but there isn't.

 

So honestly, until you you get this ^^ done, you aren't going to make any progress...

 So you would not agree to any of this "for example" due to clipping....lol

 

 

[///M5 2,833]

wtf?  You post a damn video?  Just say what you want, I am not watching 3min of garbage to explain something to you.

[mikel7829 90]

No it isn't a debate.  You are subjective with your conclusions, I conducted objective testing with controlled variables to complete my conclusion.  I come from an Electrical Engineering background and have worked Operation Testing for the last decade, I base my opinions on fact.

 

Regardless, I am not going to try and convince you or anyone else to change your mind. 

I will not disagree that the subs you and I might use could most likely would never see any thermal damage..But what about the guys that use overrated gear? With a clipped signal that gives the "overrated product"  double the voltage on a square wave for long periods of time? would that not cause thermal damage? Go ahead neg me all you wan't for my opinion but this is pretty interesting! like I said from the get go it all boils down to the quality of the manufacture..

 

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm