Raising the stage above the dash

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I have t/a and have found that it's not really reliable to use a tape measure so I've been messing with it by ear. It helps a ton but I overall need more powerful frontstage drivers, they're almost at their limits on 50rms/ch x_x I'm all for two way instead, just really want something that can produce reputable midbass and stay clean in the upper range. Would a ported pa style 8 be what I'm looking for, or a ported mid in general?

Edited July 17, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[///M5 2,833]

That is a Pandora's box question.  Not trivial to pull off by any means and if you don't pull it off right the net effect can easily be a worse response.  The PA portion of the question makes it even worse as 90% of the drivers on the market will be bad for the question at hand, but of course there are exceptions that could work.  If they are too it would require quite the tweeter install to mate nicely as well.

Ignore the recommended rms lol.  Much more important to model it and understand what it means.  You do reference midbass so yes there are tradeoffs, but understand them don't assume them.  This is definitely the first step before even thinking about a ported front stage.

[edouble101 314]

9 hours ago, SpeakerBoy said:

I have t/a and have found that it's not really reliable to use a tape measure so I've been messing with it by ear. It helps a ton but I overall need more powerful frontstage drivers, they're almost at their limits on 50rms/ch x_x I'm all for two way instead, just really want something that can produce reputable midbass and stay clean in the upper range. Would a ported pa style 8 be what I'm looking for, or a ported mid in general?

There are many excellent 6.5" midbass dirvers that would work well in car audio.

My favorite as of now is the GR Research M130X. This is what i currently use. It costs $39/ea. I have ~400wrms on tap to each driver. They get loud and stay clean. 

Pro audio drivers are midrange drivers not midbass. Pro audio uses large cone subs for midbass. No need to use a ported midbass driver in a  car, unless you really enjoy very challenging fabrication. Even then the cons outweigh the pros.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Something you can try, and no, I'm not saying this works on every application.

Proper phase is a must too.

If you know what a proper phase sounds like, you can tell immediately when a vehicle you demo is out of phase.

USACI has a great test CD to test phase.

I've seen time when people changed the phase on their drivers to raise the stage.

Usually changing the phase of the midrange / tweet out of phase with the midbass drivers.  When I ran 2 way passive, my tweeters were out of phase with the lower drivers. Worked great !!!

Now like I said, may work ... may not. All depends on application, hence the reason for asking if you have factory dash locations.

Trial and error and see what happens. Good luck.

[///M5 2,833]

Perhaps stated more clearly.  In the past 20 years none of my vehicles have EVER had both tweets and both mids all be in electrical phase.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

On July 17, 2016 at 3:12 PM, ///M5 said:

Perhaps stated more clearly.  In the past 20 years none of my vehicles have EVER had both tweets and both mids all be in electrical phase.

I'll do that this evening and give it a listen.

As far as the midbass, I've heard port firing into the kick works well, so what about a partially exposed port that I can shorten til it's homed in?

[SpeakerBoy 64]

On July 17, 2016 at 3:12 PM, ///M5 said:

Perhaps stated more clearly.  In the past 20 years none of my vehicles have EVER had both tweets and both mids all be in electrical phase.

Fuck me in the face with a pitchfork my left tweeter was ruining my whole install.TOTALLY UNDERRATED advice. Mucho gracias senór.

 

Let me ask this next one carefully. Did you mean both left to right as in the entire left side was generally phased separate from your right or that your left tended to be phased opposite for example left tweet in right tweet out left mid out right tweet in

 

I ask, because even though I pride myself on the of accuracy of my ear, between fatigue and severe anxiety (antagonized by uncertainty in my absolute favorite obsession) I am intimidated by the thought of switching each driver one at a time over and over all, what, twenty four times and deciding what sounds best. I'd literally rather make a switchboard for tuning.

Edited July 29, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[altoncustomtech 773]

6 hours ago, SpeakerBoy said:

Fuck me in the face with a pitchfork my left tweeter was ruining my whole install.TOTALLY UNDERRATED advice. Mucho gracias senór.

 

Let me ask this next one carefully. Did you mean both left to right as in the entire left side was generally phased separate from your right or that your left tended to be phased opposite for example left tweet in right tweet out left mid out right tweet in

 

I ask, because even though I pride myself on the of accuracy of my ear, between fatigue and severe anxiety (antagonized by uncertainty in my absolute favorite obsession) I am intimidated by the thought of switching each driver one at a time over and over all, what, twenty four times and deciding what sounds best. I'd literally rather make a switchboard for tuning.

I used to have such a switching device years ago. I used non-shorting double pole-double throw switches, hooked the amp/input wires to the common terminals, the wires going to the speakers on one set of the switched terminals and a set of wires that cross going from that set of terminals to the last. It's important they're non-shorting switches because when the switch is flipped from one position to the other it would cause a short to the amp for a moment. Under a bit of power that could cause the amp to go into protect or worse damage it. Otherwise it's a super handy tool!

[///M5 2,833]

Yikes, no thanks.  Polarity switch on a DSP is a prerequisite for any install I am in doing.

[altoncustomtech 773]

1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Yikes, no thanks.  Polarity switch on a DSP is a prerequisite for any install I am in doing.

Of course, it's definitely the easier, quicker and more secure way to do it but when you don't have that option...

[SpeakerBoy 64]

The mini is definitely on the list when the money is right, didn't know that was a feature oh lawdy ima sleep so much better tonight.

 

I did however have a stroke of luck in flipping my left tweeter and passenger mid. My logic (correct or not) was shortest and longest wavelength respectively. I'm going to try a few more combinations next weekend after a solid seven days of having it like this. I'm pretty pissed my mids are not only 6's but 8ohm because I have a feeling this ID Q series 2ch has some singing to show me. I liked those GR's but thinking if I gave that company a shot I'll try these gr-research.com/m165xwoofer.aspx

 satisfactory midbass is so hard for me to achieve...I'm an spl guy but right  now midbass that snaps you in the chest > literally anything else ever because wtf

Edited July 30, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[///M5 2,833]

I am against stating generalities in audio, but the most true one there is should give you some solace.  8ohm mids > 4ohm mids, nearly always.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

I am against stating generalities in audio, but the most true one there is should give you some solace.  8ohm mids > 4ohm mids, nearly always.

I'm singularly, lliterally, ONLY mad because of what it takes to feed them. I bought the bigger mids amp because I could cook steaks on my Lanzar aftee a listening session trying to get them to produce a satisfactory level (and man, I don't mean bangin, I mean a satisfactory for normal sessions) What's a nice efficient 8" 8ohm midbass that could mate with some dayton AMT3's? I'll eat the price tag and snag em, by now you should know, I trust you man. You've never steered me wrong (just made me feel silly)

Edited July 30, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[SpeakerBoy 64]

So important to me right now, it's a separate post. As soon (the damn second) I have that buck sixty for mlv and ccf, doors are being completed and eight's are being ordered (don't want the final drivers in til they have a proper home) but as of right now I've sealed all holes, clayed the doors with plastilina like 5lbs each, and made rings for my 6.75's. I now have them in better phase and time aligned and I just need MOAR MIDBASS 

I was gonna was ask because I couldn't find shit anywhere on it but I finally figured it out its an Image Dynamics Q700.2

Edited July 30, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[///M5 2,833]

1 hour ago, SpeakerBoy said:

I'm singularly, lliterally, ONLY mad because of what it takes to feed them. I bought the bigger mids amp because I could cook steaks on my Lanzar aftee a listening session trying to get them to produce a satisfactory level (and man, I don't mean bangin, I mean a satisfactory for normal sessions) What's a nice efficient 8" 8ohm midbass that could mate with some dayton AMT3's? I'll eat the price tag and snag em, by now you should know, I trust you man. You've never steered me wrong (just made me feel silly)

They don't take more to feed them than 4ohm ones.  If they do, the 4's are designed like crap.  Beware of sensitivity ratings....

43 minutes ago, SpeakerBoy said:

So important to me right now, it's a separate post. As soon (the damn second) I have that buck sixty for mlv and ccf, doors are being completed and eight's are being ordered (don't want the final drivers in til they have a proper home) but as of right now I've sealed all holes, clayed the doors with plastilina like 5lbs each, and made rings for my 6.75's. I now have them in better phase and time aligned and I just need MOAR MIDBASS 

I was gonna was ask because I couldn't find shit anywhere on it but I finally figured it out its an Image Dynamics Q700.2

Mating an 8 to the AMT"s isn't going to work.  Need a tweeter with an Fs around 1kHz to even try and even at that it will be a compromise.

[Randal Johnson 544]

22 hours ago, SpeakerBoy said:

Fuck me in the face with a pitchfork my left tweeter was ruining my whole install.TOTALLY UNDERRATED advice. Mucho gracias senór.

 

Let me ask this next one carefully. Did you mean both left to right as in the entire left side was generally phased separate from your right or that your left tended to be phased opposite for example left tweet in right tweet out left mid out right tweet in

 

I ask, because even though I pride myself on the of accuracy of my ear, between fatigue and severe anxiety (antagonized by uncertainty in my absolute favorite obsession) I am intimidated by the thought of switching each driver one at a time over and over all, what, twenty four times and deciding what sounds best. I'd literally rather make a switchboard for tuning.

Oh that's funny here. Well, confusing actually. 

I'm the first one on this thread to mention phase and Sean gets the awesome "thank you" ??? 

[jcarter1885 995]

1 hour ago, Randal Johnson said:

Oh that's funny here. Well, confusing actually. 

I'm the first one on this thread to mention phase and Sean gets the awesome "thank you" ??? 

Why are you being petty? Who cares really, you both helped. One more than the other. 

 

Do you want a cookie? Ill go give you a plus one, ok.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Wasn't being rude. Well, wasn't my intention anyways. Just saying.

My bad guys.

 

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I appreciate your input as well if you want a blatantly honest answer I'm  experiencing a set of side effects I'd rather not go in depth on from new medications that effects my ability to work with words and text and It gets really bad when I don't eat and right now I'm way behind on my bills and I just told you I chose to blow money on an image dynamics amp. So without getting personal, and without anyone giving me advice on problems my daily life as I know I got em lol  

Thank you, phasing is helpful. My tweets sound better now.

M5, I need to be patient and perfect a 6.75 + Amt 2way before I can move up to a larger driver?Beginning to think bass isn't what I crave most in audio damnnnnnitttt x_x 

Between now and ordering deadening, what else can I do? (What other info can I provide to make that answerable?)

Edited July 31, 2016 by SpeakerBoy

[Randal Johnson 544]

Def. understand daily struggle my brother. It's all good. Work at your own pace. I'm tuned in for progress !!!

[///M5 2,833]

A bigger midbass means either new tweeters or a 3 way.  Dialing in what you have and making sure you know exactly what you want to improve however is a better next step

[SpeakerBoy 64]

I think it's time for the miniDSP and a new HU (Mine is starting to crap out and argue with my phone when it comes to shuffling playlists.) also, seven band eq, no longer satisfactory. That plus the deadening should be pretty pretty good. 

80prs and a mac mini sounds tasty.

 I could use a break from a touchscreen for now though, I'm spoiled. (This is my first radio). 80 prs should be around 200 and a minidsp is  99 so, about five hundo to finish the door project. My brother's two door exploder isn't totaled after all so im gonna keep trying to snag it  

I also think a single 18 is *sigh* adequate for a long time. At least til the midbass is overpowering. Onwards and upwards!

 

 

[///M5 2,833]

Why both a prs and a minidsp??

[Randal Johnson 544]

If you plan to "break the bank" so to speak, you may as well grab the p99rs and be done with it.

 

Just saying

[///M5 2,833]

15 hours ago, SpeakerBoy said:

80prs and a mac mini sounds tasty.

Wait.  I just re-read and noticed the Mac.  What is the Apple for??