Theile Small parameters

[dopey 0]

Are they measured when the subs are new and stiff, or after they're broken in?

[ngsm13 1]

They are not completely broken in however they are not straight off of the assembly line.

nG

[tejcurrent 13]

I believe from another post (I think nick maybe) said the sub would 'settle into' the parameters. I would really wait for one of them to respond to get the most accurate info though.

[dopey 0]

I'm trying...I'm trying

[NDMstang65 403]

They are broken in for the most part...for parameter aspects..

However dont put all your cards on the parameters for a box design...if that is what you may be using them for.

-Nick from daytona

[dopey 0]

No no.

I'm taking Fi's official box recommendations over anything else.

Just wondering(academically) why the TS parameters suggest significantly different tuning parameters.

[ngsm13 1]

No no.

I'm taking Fi's official box recommendations over anything else.

Just wondering(academically) why the TS parameters suggest significantly different tuning parameters.

Because...

Real World > winISD

nG

[appleyard 0]

well I tried to key in the specs in WinISD and either i had errors or it value turns out different. Is that me or its the program. Btw any other software which allows me to desings the enclosures.

[ngsm13 1]

You don't need to select a driver in winISD to design a box... all it does is influence the graph... which is completely inaccurate anway.

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215849

nG

[tejcurrent 13]

I've never had any luck w/ winisd, it always give me strange results. I used to have it on my old laptop before it crashed, never bothered putting it on this one-just waste of space imo.

[ngsm13 1]

I've never had any luck w/ winisd, it always give me strange results. I used to have it on my old laptop before it crashed, never bothered putting it on this one-just waste of space imo.

If you know how to properly use it, it's quick, simple, and accurate. Only use it to determine port length, that's it.

I still do all the calculations on paper, and check my port length in winISD.

nG

[theabunai 3]

WinISD is good to fine tune a box not for building ground up...

Subs are so different these days....

When in doubt i would highly suggest you go with whatever Fi recommends (or any speaker manufacturer recommendation).

I am certain Scott nick and shawn know more about the subs "potential" than some universal program

[tejcurrent 13]

I've never had any luck w/ winisd, it always give me strange results. I used to have it on my old laptop before it crashed, never bothered putting it on this one-just waste of space imo.

If you know how to properly use it, it's quick, simple, and accurate. Only use it to determine port length, that's it.

I still do all the calculations on paper, and check my port length in winISD.

nG

It really isn't much good for much else, it just doesn't give dependable results imo. Like you said yourself, you do the stuff on paper for a reason (besides knowing how to do it )

Edited March 27, 2007 by tejcurrent

[dopey 0]

I've never had any luck w/ winisd, it always give me strange results. I used to have it on my old laptop before it crashed, never bothered putting it on this one-just waste of space imo.

If you know how to properly use it, it's quick, simple, and accurate. Only use it to determine port length, that's it.

I still do all the calculations on paper, and check my port length in winISD.

nG

It really isn't much good for much else, it just doesn't give dependable results imo. Like you said yourself, you do the stuff on paper for a reason (besides knowing how to do it )

But if it's all math, your answers will be repeatable with a computer program.

[dopey 0]

Either the math is wrong (and should be "fixed").

Or, the TS's are inadequate, and should be updated.

Which is the case?

[theabunai 3]

I can give 3 other calculators and when you plug in the exact same T/S parameters you will get a different design and output on each one...

Bassbox pro

winISD

even online programs will all punch out different designs

http://www.klausaudio.com/shop/custom-encl...oofer-boxes.cfm

http://www.subwoofertools.com/forum/ported-box.asp

http://www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm

http://www.reaudio.com/speaker_box/LPort_Box_Calc.html

My advice is PM scott nick or shawn and ask them to help you with the port length or whatever you are stuck with on your box design...

they actually test the sub in ALL box dimensions and port lengths for ported and sealed...

including all the different options....

trust me nobody knows a subs potential output BETTER then the manufacturer...

Remember winISD is a Universal program it is not targeted to give you specifics for a specific design of a subwoofer... It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE to make a program be able to cover all aspects of every subwoofer.. Furthermore Subwoofer developement has come a long way... XBL2 technology, cooling, copper coils, flatwind, can not be factored into the program but all have impacts on the T/S of the sub....

ngsm had the perfect example

Real world testing by the manufacturer of the sub > universal subwoofer program

[tejcurrent 13]

Thank you for saying it much better than I was able to- never should've dropped outta college..

[Fi Car Audio 64]

Neither. The "optimal" targeting for the enclosure programs is based off of something far from optimal for car audio. It doesnt take into account transfer function of the vehicle... and therefore is best used only for getting port info... and not so much for an overall design.

I think what might be happening is that we list subs impedance per coil and not wired in series as the specs are taken. Simply try for the D2 to list the DCR or RE as 2.8 (or double the single coil load) and it should come out fine. D1s should be 1.4 not .7 (as .7 is per coil and specs are measured with coils in series for the least error).

Thanks,

Scott

[dopey 0]

I'm not using Winisd. I have before, and didn't like it. I'm looking at all of these box designing tools, and wondering why they all give different recommendations based on the same input.

Is the math behind ports, shady and imprecise? Or, is the math static and the measure of TS parameters shady and imprecise?

Does anyone have an excel spreadsheet for port calc's? I'm better with excel than with pen and paper.

[ngsm13 1]

I'm not using Winisd. I have before, and didn't like it. I'm looking at all of these box designing tools, and wondering why they all give different recommendations based on the same input.

Is the math behind ports, shady and imprecise? Or, is the math static and the measure of TS parameters shady and imprecise?

Does anyone have an excel spreadsheet for port calc's? I'm better with excel than with pen and paper.

The T/S parameters are measured.

The port formula is an algebraic equation giving you a length... for a set NET VOLUME, TUNING, and PORT AREA.

Neither are shady, or imprecise... unless YOU make a mistake in mathematical calculations.

IGNORE the T/S parameters, they are... sorry to say... of no particular use to you.

nG

[audio-neon 34]

The math isn't that hard and all you really need is a calculator that can handle weird powers like 10^-.7 blah blah

Oh and port design has nothing to do with a woofer, ports are based off of tuning a ratio of port area and length to box area.

Edited March 30, 2007 by audio-neon

[theabunai 3]

Simply put Dopey

Not all Programs are created equal

[dopey 0]

Simply put Dopey

Not all Programs are created equal

can you link me to a good one?

[theabunai 3]

Dopey here is what i do

I will use all the links i posted and note down the differences between all of them....

then average it out...

Or i just use one (mainly subwoofertools)

Also just FYI

Some programs DO NOT work in Liters or Cu CM they work in inches

so you need to convert some of the T/S that are in Liters and CM

Example

The subs list Vas in Liters and some programs want it converted to Cubic inches try use this

http://www.mhsoft.nl/conv1.htm

just type in the liter box 58.7 (which is the Vas for a 12" SSD D2) and it will pop out all the numbers converted into the right measurement when you click into the box...

This holds true for all programs so try to double check what measurement the program wants versus what measurement the site lists....

Edited April 1, 2007 by theabunai

[Fi Car Audio 64]

Im not morally opposed to WinISD. It works fine for getting ports correct, but you have to know what you want in a response curve before hand. I often use lspCAD for design work. Its a little more complicated than WinISD, but it allows me to import FR graphs and really get a solid design going. But... your cars basic transfer function mucks up the nice response curves you see in the programs anyway (I can correct for this in lspCad, as Im sure you can in BB Pro).

Our recommendations are based off of what we feel works and years of knowing what most customers like. My own personal tastes in systems seem to stray off the norm...

WinISD is free, and feel free to use it for port work. That online box calc program works too... although it makes its own port suggestions based off of the entered Xmax and doesnt allow you to change it since we know better than it. Unless you are trying to get a very specific response curve in a car... simply do what you feel is best and what we/others recommend or have done and work with that. Over time you will learn what response curve you are looking for in a given application... and it is far from what many programs recommend.

The programs work fine for many things, but higher power and pressure applications, things start to change. The ever increasing complexity/order of an enclosure all of this gets even worse. Its hard to model things in a static situation when all parts involved are very dynamic (but some programs are getting better at non linear modeling too).