Lining trunk of SUV

[gushybear 0]

hey there,

I'm attempting to dial out a bit of resonance (there isn't so much on this car), as well as keep as much of the sound inside the car as possible. Would my original plan of damp pro and overkill pro all over the hatch area be good? would adding a product like luxury liner pro (I also figure if i'm doing this i might as well reduce alot of the road noise throughout the car) reduce the volume inside because it will absorb the sound??

I'm starting in the trunk / hatch area, and i think doing the doors and front wheelwells/footwells at the same time. if results are good, i'll continue and do the rest of the car, with Damp prop/overkill pro everywhere, + luxury liner where i can.

Anyways the reason i ask the above question is i have 2 rear firing subwoofers bouncing off the hatch and into the cabin, and i dont want to reduce this effect by using this product. thanks in advance.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I noticed some drop in road noise with just one layer of Overkill. So I would assume you would notice even more with OverKill pro. If you want to even more road noise killing, then the LLPro would be awesome for that. It is very thick.

[gushybear 0]

right but as for keeping the SPL ?

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

right but as for keeping the SPL ?

Well I did not test on a mic, but more of the sound of the stereo is kept in the car for sure.

[///M5 2,833]

right but as for keeping the SPL ?

If you are just looking for single note output having the panels resonate should probably help although you probably would have to alter their mass or stiffness to really maximize your output.

[gushybear 0]

ahaha "SPL" came back and bit me.

i'm NOT using my car for numbers or competitions at all. just for everyday bump-di-bump. But if using damplifier and then overkill or luxury liner on top would significantly reduce the cabin gain, then i'd just like to know ahead of time.

Just want it to sound as good as possible. especially from outside where right now my trunk sounds like a giant garbage bin.

Here's another thing to consider, if i were to use luxury liner instead of overkill, what would be the difference? It seems that luxury liner would block more noise than the overkill...

[gushybear 0]

oh and is overkill pro's closed cell foam the same as on the luxury liner pro ?

if so, using overkill and luxury liner (not pro) would produce similar results, and cover all bases correct?

[KickinAudio 5]

I'd look into using a combo of damplifier, spectrum and luxury liner.

Using overkill and luxury liner is a little silly. Those are noise barriers, not vibration dampeners.

[gushybear 0]

so overkill and luxury liner both accomplish the same goal, albeit overkill only filters out some frequencies whereas luxury liner blocks out alot more?

[KickinAudio 5]

Think of overkill has a filter, and luxury liner as a barrier (because of the foam and vinyl).

I'll be making more videos on each product so you can see it in action. Check out this one though, it explains why we used which product.

[gushybear 0]

Is there a large difference in deadening between the open and closed cell foam of LLP and LL ?

[KickinAudio 5]

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Comparing open cell vs closed cell/vinyl is apples and oranges.

[gushybear 0]

how can they be apples and oranges ? they're both sold for the exact same purpose, and the website doesn't describe the differences between using an open celled or closed cell foam. It just goes on and describes what the point of foam is, not what the difference in type of foam is.

All i know is open celled foam will absorb moisture. is that what you pay 40% more for?

[KickinAudio 5]

how can they be apples and oranges ? they're both sold for the exact same purpose

Vehicles are sold for the same purpose (travel), but is it fair to compare a Ferrari to a scooter?

the website doesn't doesn't describe the differences between using an open celled or closed cell foam.

It.....describes what the point of foam is

not what the difference in type of foam is.

Isn't the description of the point of foam used define the why the foam was chosen?

open celled foam will absorb moisture. is that what you pay 40% more for?

No, paying 40% more is not for the sake of absorbing more or less moisture. The purpose of Second Skin Audio is not to sell material for moisture absorption or prevention, but to strive in providing products engineered in reducing noise and vibration.

[gushybear 0]

well then could someone describe to me the difference between closed cell and open celled foam.

Isn't the description of the point of foam used define the why the foam was chosen?

uhh... no. it describes "foam", and doesn't say why closed cell or open celled foam is used.

obviously the main difference cant be because of moisture absorbtion, but i'm sure thats one of the benefits of a closed cell foam. especially in an automotive application where moisture can be an issue with varying temperatures and humiditys etc.

And as for Ferrari vs scooter... umm okay then that goes back to what i was originally asking, is LL just a better version of overkill ?

and i'd take the scooter. better on gas

[dem beats 1,223]

how can they be apples and oranges ? they're both sold for the exact same purpose

Vehicles are sold for the same purpose (travel), but is it fair to compare a Ferrari to a scooter?

the website doesn't doesn't describe the differences between using an open celled or closed cell foam.

It.....describes what the point of foam is

not what the difference in type of foam is.

Isn't the description of the point of foam used define the why the foam was chosen?

open celled foam will absorb moisture. is that what you pay 40% more for?

No, paying 40% more is not for the sake of absorbing more or less moisture. The purpose of Second Skin Audio is not to sell material for moisture absorption or prevention, but to strive in providing products engineered in reducing noise and vibration.

Are you a rep for the company? I would consider having some tact and to be a little bit more usefull than an ass hat when trying to earn someones dollars...

A would be customer wants to know why you chose open cell, he asked that question 2 times, and you have basicaly called him an idiot and that he should know why one type of foam is better than the other. That ferrarri comment was retarded. I hope the admins here see this thread, your company should be embarrased that you would talk that way to someone who is trying to spend money with you, and a member of SSA just asking a question.

If you're having a bad day, ok we've all been there. Just don't go making idiotic comments on behalf a company you represent, and make rude comments to members of SSA.

Dear Original Poster,

If this is how they treat you before they get your money just think how nice they will be when they have it. I have heard no bad comments about SS as a product actualy. And if you want to stop the rattle, use a couple layers of deadener and then a laywer of foam. I used 2 layers of Raam on my SUV then 2 layers of foam and it's completely dead. The hatch is tougher, but it can be done. Expanding foam can be your friend too.

[gushybear 0]

hey thanks man. I wasn't sure if i was just reading it wrong, but it definitely seemed like that guy was just being an arseho to me.

I went with raamaudio, because the man picked up on the 2nd ring and answered all my questions in as much detail as i needed. I purchased quite a bit so i think i'll get it all deadened. Thanks for the tip 'dem'. i'll make sure i double layer my ensolite

as far as i'm concerned, 'kickin audio', you're quite rude and i dont know if you're affiliated with second skin, but you just cost them a few hundred dollars.

thats about 190000 shy of a ferrari, or 3000 short of a good scooter, for your reference.

[KickinAudio 5]

Are you a rep for the company?

No. That was a lot of wasted/unnecessary typing assuming that I am.

I hope the admins here see this thread

I basically am an admin here.

Dear Original Poster,

If this is how they treat you....

Keep in mind this is a public forum. Just because someone posts here doesn't mean they automatically represent the company.

as far as i'm concerned, 'kickin audio', you're quite rude

I think you've confused rudeness with logic. I've used no slander, obscene or offensive language, or any form of ad hominem argument (as you're resorting to).

[Dr Durden 0]

Hate to say it, but 2 layers of wimpy Ensolite is not even comparable to something like LL or LLP. The transmission loss of LLP, for example, at 250 hz (pretty much dead center of the "road noise' band) is 18 dB. TL of 1/4" Ensolite closed cell foam is probably 3 dB if you're lucky.

Both noise barriers you're comparing are used in commercial and industrial applications as barriers between walls and floors. They both have the same mass loaded vinyl (MLV) layer. Which product you choose depends on the application. IME, I see no purpose for LL as Ant now has LLP on the market. It's superior in almost every aspect for the automobile.

Please stop putting closed cell foam in cars thinking it will do anything to the noise you don't want in your car. It's just not worth the headache and frustration.

[Dr Durden 0]

so overkill and luxury liner both accomplish the same goal, albeit overkill only filters out some frequencies whereas luxury liner blocks out alot more?

Heavy stuff blocks noise, think of it that way. How massive is closed cell foam?

Mass Law:

The mass law equation predicts that each time the frequency of measurement or the mass per unit area of a single layer wall is doubled, the transmission loss increases by about 6 dB. To increase the sound transmission loss of a partition by 12 dB at all frequencies, therefore, the mass per unit area must be increased by a factor of 4; an increase of 18 dB requires an increase by a factor of 8 and so on. Mass per unit area can be increased by increasing thickness or by selecting a more dense material.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd239-print_e.html

As you can see, you can predict the ability of any material to block [refract] sound with the equation mentioned. Plug in the numbers for 1 sq ft of LLP at 250 hz and see what you get. Then do the same for 1 sq ft of Ensolite at the same frequency.

What does 1/8" do for transmission loss at 250 hz? Nothing. You cannot possibly fit enough layers of 1/8" closed cell foam in your car for it do anything at that frequency band. Filter? Yea, it's a filter for the dollars in your bank account.

Math is fun.

Edited July 30, 2008 by FoxPro5

[KickinAudio 5]

so overkill and luxury liner both accomplish the same goal, albeit overkill only filters out some frequencies whereas luxury liner blocks out alot more?

That exactly what the website says...

"Overkill is a noise absorbing filter that weeds out specific frequencies that are able to penetrate the first vibration damping layer. Luxury Liner is a barrier that blocks and reflects the most difficult airborne sound waves."

[Dr Durden 0]

"Overkill is a noise absorbing filter that weeds out specific frequencies

According to the laws of physics (1/4 wavelenght theory, more specifically) that would be about 10k hz and above. Ever listened to a 10k tone? You're reaching the limit of audibility of the human ear.

Closed cell foam can't absorb sound. Stop buying fairy tales and snake oil.

[KickinAudio 5]

But aren't you talking up LLP? It's closed cell.

The transmission loss of LLP, for example, at 250 hz (pretty much dead center of the "road noise' band) is 18 dB.

Please stop putting closed cell foam in cars thinking it will do anything to the noise you don't want in your car. It's just not worth the headache and frustration.

We saw a large drop around 250-300hz on the termlab after installing LLP.

[Dr Durden 0]

But aren't you talking up LLP? It's closed cell.

No, I'm talking about CCF on it's own. A decoupled barrier like LLP is to a lead wall as something like 1/8 CCF is to sheet rock in terms of block-ability.

Search: spring mass barrier.

That's what LLP is. The foam is NOT there to absorb noise, it's there to mechanically isolate [decouple] the mass layer from the substrate. One thing the foam does do in terms of TL is to add a slight amount of weight to the barrier (~ .3 lbs/ft).

Going from a single wall barrier (MLV alone) to a double wall barrier (LLP, for ex) will get you an additional 18 dB of TL above the resonant frequency.

Gotta appreciate how SS supports their products, don't you...................................................................?

Edited July 30, 2008 by FoxPro5

[Dr Durden 0]

We saw a large drop around 250-300hz on the termlab after installing LLP.

I know, but what are the actual figures?? How much?

Great video. I'm very detail oriented and would love to see what the product is exactly doing in your test. Something like LLP is less expensive than buying twice the amp power, probably.