Anyone running pro audio?

[idiot 7]

Yeah, I'm gonna side with the guy who said to pick your locations before getting bogged down in driver selection. I had a helluva time fitting just a big-magnet 7" in my doors and some tweeters in my a-pillar. Definitely couldn't sacrifice the floorspace for kicks, and knowing those limits made my speaker choice much clearer.

Get a super tweeter like the ST200 or ST350, but good luck putting it in the dash. They are quite large.

Yeah, but it's still do-able... and totally worth it.

[Impious 1,476]

How spendy?

I wouldn't mind spending 500-700 if it gets the job done.

Anywhere from $150-400 new, each.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? More dynamic sound but with good accurate reproduction and proper imaging? Or just trying to be heard from a half mile away?

Really hard to give any suggestions without knowing your actual goals. Too many people equate pro audio with "who cares how it sounds as long as it's loud!" (and many of the users require only this level performance out of their own systems using these speakers), so when someone asks for recommendations on high sensitivity drivers the suggestions pay little attention to the actual quality of the sound produced or goals for the system. Most of those "loud" pro audio car setups don't follow the best acoustic practices either. The reality however is that there are lower-average quality products that have lower-average performance and higher quality products that are very well behaved in terms of distortion, linearity and response. Knowing your goal will determine which product range fits your needs. Also, knowing your goals as far as imaging will help provide a realistic expectation as speaker placement and as a result, size constraints.

I will say that you are not going to find a high sensitivity 3" or 4" driver. Sensitivity is partially a function of cone area, and as cone area goes down and motor size decreases, you begin to limit the driver's ability to maintain a high sensitivity. So matching a low sensitivity 3" full range driver with a high sensitivity midbass and midrange is going to require you reduce the level of the midbass and midrange to properly level-match the drivers......which sort of defeats the purpose (unless you are purchasing the high sensitivity driver for it's other traits, such as distortion performance. But that doesn't sound like your objective).

Also, most super-tweeters or bullet tweeters need highpassed in the 3khz - 5khz range. A 6" driver is going to begin beaming well below that point as well as probably run into some potential issues with things like cone breakup modes/etc. Now, not all beaming is bad as it can serve as pattern control, but it's also not always good or useful and can create another layer of complications to the installation/tuning if good sound and imaging is your goal.

Horns in generally are not newb-friendly. That's not a knock at you as I have no idea of your abilities, but if your tuning skills are on the newer end of the spectrum expect to spend considerable time tuning the system before it sounds (atleast until you get that MS-8 listed in your sig which will take care of most of the hard work for you). However, for other reasons such as better pattern control and horn loading as well as available bandwidth (and overall performance in general) they are a much better option than bullet tweeters.

So, after a bit of rambling......what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[eggyhustles 33]

Anywhere from $150-400 new, each.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? More dynamic sound but with good accurate reproduction and proper imaging? Or just trying to be heard from a half mile away?

Tryin' to be heard blocks away

Needs to be clean, though..

Proper imaging and such isn't that important this time around.

I just wants tons of midbass, and clean sounding highs to mate with the subs.

With the setup i have now, it sounds sort of lifeless and dry if that makes any sense. the pro audio setup i referenced earlier had a real live, full, concert like sound..which is exactly what i'm looking for.

I will say that you are not going to find a high sensitivity 3" or 4" driver. Sensitivity is partially a function of cone area, and as cone area goes down and motor size decreases, you begin to limit the driver's ability to maintain a high sensitivity. So matching a low sensitivity 3" full range driver with a high sensitivity midbass and midrange is going to require you reduce the level of the midbass and midrange to properly level-match the drivers......which sort of defeats the purpose (unless you are purchasing the high sensitivity driver for it's other traits, such as distortion performance. But that doesn't sound like your objective).

I figured that...just wanted to keep the w3 so i wouldn't have to either replace or hack up the a pillar some more.

Acura wants 95 each for those things

and 200 for each door panel smh.

Also, most super-tweeters or bullet tweeters need highpassed in the 3khz - 5khz range. A 6" driver is going to begin beaming well below that point as well as probably run into some potential issues with things like cone breakup modes/etc. Now, not all beaming is bad as it can serve as pattern control, but it's also not always good or useful and can create another layer of complications to the installation/tuning if good sound and imaging is your goal.

so would skipping the six be a better idea?

Horns in generally are not newb-friendly. That's not a knock at you as I have no idea of your abilities, but if your tuning skills are on the newer end of the spectrum expect to spend considerable time tuning the system before it sounds (atleast until you get that MS-8 listed in your sig which will take care of most of the hard work for you). However, for other reasons such as better pattern control and horn loading as well as available bandwidth (and overall performance in general) they are a much better option than bullet tweeters.

So, after a bit of rambling......what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I def won't be doing the installing

I'll be taking the car to dom(6speedcoup) from diyma.

[Impious 1,476]

I would skip the idea of trying to run a 3" widebander for your goals. It's just not going to work for your objective.

If you are just looking for loud, the cheapest and most effective route is probably the 3-way w/ large midbass, 6 - 8" midrange and bullet tweeters. It will have it's fair share of acoustic problems, but if those aren't your primary concern then it may be a fair trade-off for your goals.

You could do a 2-way or 3-way with a HLCD, get the type of sound you are after and possibly still salvage some semblance of decent imaging and in-car sound, but it'd likely be more expensive. The commonly used bullet tweeters usually run $25-$50 each new, car specific HLCD usually go for $250-$500 used depending on model. It'd be easier to run 2-way as you could cross the horns as low as 900hz - 1khz. You could run 2-way with this setup with 8's or 10's, but running 3-way could gain you some more flexibility in driver selection and probably better overall sound at the cost of real estate, tuning and cost. And with the car audio specific HLCD's being mounted under-dash, you wouldn't have to piss with your A-pillars.

[CaptinPower 1]

i got some american bass sq-6s and some st-05 super tweets and god they will rip you apart from about 100 yards away lol. i need some 8s or 10s now to get some of that lower vocal range. im still trying to get the a real good grasp on them once i go active with'em it should be nice tho

Edited July 14, 2010 by CaptinPower

[eggyhustles 33]

def thinking of tryin' horns.

I do want it to sound good...

[jrod1050 5]

Sirlancelot have you had a chance to redo your front stage yet? Are those pro audio speakers going in the same ride that has the xcon 18's?

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I started to the other day but I bought a crossover that was doa. About 3 hours wasted running rca's and wire for nothing. I have no doubt they will keep up. Remains to be seen if they aound like ass. Lol

Will let you know when I do.

[///M5 2,833]

def thinking of tryin' horns.

I do want it to sound good...

And that surely doesn't help us give you ANY information.

[shizzzon 461]

one of my favorite installs. sound so good in person, a pair of eminence delta 10's and a pair of st350's

what amp(s) was he using for the Deltas?

i've been lookin for some amps for such install and the only two i've found are the following-

US amps XT 1600.2 2v3 - ~400w@8ohm dynamic

Alphasonik PCA1000HCE - ~900w@8ohm rms

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

what amp(s) was he using for the Deltas?

i've been lookin for some amps for such install and the only two i've found are the following-

US amps XT 1600.2 2v3 - ~400w@8ohm dynamic

Alphasonik PCA1000HCE - ~900w@8ohm rms

Dont really have to give them a ton of power.

Buy a 4ch and bridge it, that's what I am going to do with mine.

[shizzzon 461]

i do when runnin over 30kw

[jblcamry 103]

one of my favorite installs. sound so good in person, a pair of eminence delta 10's and a pair of st350's

what amp(s) was he using for the Deltas?

i've been lookin for some amps for such install and the only two i've found are the following-

US amps XT 1600.2 2v3 - ~400w@8ohm dynamic

Alphasonik PCA1000HCE - ~900w@8ohm rms

Alpine pdx 4.150 bridged. so ~ 300 per driver.

[johnecon2001 82]

I'm running some pro audio stuff ;-)

But in a much larger capacity than you probably want.

http://alifelessexplored.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/proceed-cat.jpg

I'm running some pro audio stuff ;-)

But in a much larger capacity than you probably want.

http://alifelessexplored.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/proceed-cat.jpg

LMAO!

Yeah come on man, share.

[eggyhustles 33]

Been reading about horns and pro audio in general

This is becoming more difficult then i thought it would be =(

[jcarter1885 995]

Its not that, just like anything else in car audio. You have to pick your goals and make compromises to get what you want. If you need opinions on products or something then ask but yeah if you never went active or dealt with PA speakers then it will be more challenging then just picking the right pair of components.

[Impious 1,476]

Been reading about horns and pro audio in general

This is becoming more difficult then i thought it would be =(

Did you have a particular question or concern we could help you with?

[eggyhustles 33]

Not yet lol

[eggyhustles 33]

I had a few goals when setting up the system, but one important one was that I wanted it to be accurate but loud.. I've had loud setups in the past, but most didn't sound good on diff genres of music.

Rap music sounded great, but they always fell short and sounded like crap when i decided to listen to some sade or kenny g.

This is what i'm after.

I want that live band intensity. I want midbass that will make me flinch, and in your face highs. Not ear bleeding, but just plain loud and clean while still accurate; but without losing composure at high levels.

While the front stage i have now is accurate, It's also very BLAND sounding. I mean nice to listen to, but not exciting even at loud levels.

I haven't had much time to research drivers(Working IT full time and studying for certs will eat up all your time )

but this mid caught my eye

18 sound 8NMB420 http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=256

And this horn

B&C DE500 Horn B&C DE500-8 1" Neo Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-Bolt | Parts-Express.com

Questions

Would any ol' horn lens work? I remember reading somewhere that different lens designs will have an impact on sq. is that true? why is the lens needed?

Would having the speakers low keep my sound stage low? I liked the stage height the w3's provided.

I've decided that i want an 8 in the door and horns under the dash for 2 reasons

1. I have the space now for an 8 and would rather avoid having the door hacked up some more.

2. having the w3's on axis was an eye-sore and i want the dash real estate back lol..i also like the idea of the horn being hidden under the dash.

Budget? up to $1000 usd

As far as power goes, here's what i have in the stash to use

2 mb quart dsc 4125's

1 dsc 280

2 jl hd 600/4's

2 arc audio mini 125.4's

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I am right there with you man.

I will be testing some 6" & 8" Selenium mids and st350 tweeters this weekend.

I am pretty sure in the end I will be getting some B&C mids if I don't like the Selenium. Mixed reviews on the Selenium, but I have read some nice reviews on the B&C mids. I don't want them to sound like shit and i dont mind spending the money.

B&C 10NW64 if I go with 10's or

a pair of these B&C 8NDL51 8's.

Still undecided on tweeters.

Good luck man, sorry if I shit your post with my own project, but I hope you get some help that could be of use to us both.

I will hang up and listen.

[///M5 2,833]

B&C >>>>> Selenium

[Impious 1,476]

but this mid caught my eye

18 sound 8NMB420 http://www.eighteens...product&pid=256

And this horn

B&C DE500 Horn B&C DE500-8 1" Neo Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 2/3-Bolt | Parts-Express.com

18sound seems to produce pretty good drivers, albeit they can be on the pricier side of things. The Fs is pretty low for being pro audio, however the Q is very low so it's going to begin it's roll-off pretty early with a shallow slope. Definitely don't plan on great low end extension unless you plan on building a ported enclosure into your door.

The DE500 is the compression driver the ID Neo is based on (possibly a copy of, though I believe ID claims there are differences). So it's a good performing unit as well.

Would any ol' horn lens work? I remember reading somewhere that different lens designs will have an impact on sq. is that true? why is the lens needed?

The compression drivers are not designed to be direct radiating devices. The are specifically designed for horn loading. The horn lens (or "body") improves sensitivity by improving the acoustic impedance match between the source (the speaker or compression driver) and the air into which it's playing. The horn body is what gives HLCD (horn loaded compression drivers) the benefits that they have; high efficiency, controlled directivity, etc.

Yes, choice of horn lens is very important. For starters, the design of the body sets the usable bandwidth of the HLCD. The length and mouth area of the body will determine the effective operating bandwidth of the horn. Generally speaker, the shorter the horn and smaller the mouth, the higher the cutoff (crossover) frequency needs to be....the longer and larger the horn, the lower the cutoff frequency. So the size of the horn is going to determine how low you will be able to effectively use the HLCD, and this must be matched with your system design goals. You can't use a horn body that's only good down to 3khz if you intend on trying to cross the horn at 1200hz.

Second.....part of the benefit of using a HLCD is controlled directivity. Instead of the sound being radiated in all directions from the speaker as is the case with a direct radiating driver (with the exception of things like beaming), the horn body controls and limits the off-axis response giving a certain dispersion pattern. The shape of the horn is going to determine the dispersion pattern. This is usually stated in degrees, and basically tells you how the off-axis response of the horn will be. Now, with standard pro audio horn bodies you're going to have symmetrical dispersion in the horizontal plane.....for use in a car, this is generally not a good thing. This is why car audio-specific horns have the shape they do....they are designed to allow the sound to radiate towards areas we want it to be (like towards the driver and passenger), but limit it's dispersion towards areas we don't want it (like towards the doors). This can help improve the sound by reducing reflections off of various surfaces in the vehicle and can help achieve a more uniform dispersion pattern across the listening area.

Another consideration is the shape of the horn. The shape of the horn and horn termination (how thing are treated at the end of the horn's mouth) is going to affect frequency response and internal reflections in the horn itself. This will, obviously, have a large impact on the response of the horn. Anomalies in the response as a result of internal reflections can't be fixed with an EQ since it's an acoustic effect occuring within the horn....a poor horn design is going to have poor performance unless steps are taken to physically modify the conditions within the horn body such as use of foam and differing termination techniques.

There are some other things to take into consideration that will affect sound also, but I think that gives you the jist of things.

So.....the short answer to your question could have just been yes, the horn lens matters

I wouldn't try to use pro audio style horns inside a vehicle unless you are only worried about how loud you are able to get. Car audio specific horns, while definitely not perfect, take our specific considerations into account. The only real outlet for those right now are Image Dynamics. In which case, unless you've already found a set of horn bodies you are trying to mate compression drivers to, you would probably be best off to just look for a set of new or used ID HLCD's (includes both the horn body and compression driver); either the CD1-Pro, CD2-comp or the newer Ultra's. USD Audio had some as well, but they are harder to find. Illusion Audio and Veritas also had some horns, but those are harder to find. Those are the only companies I would really trust to purchase car audio horns as there were a couple other companies that I probably wouldn't recommend. It's possible to buy the ID horn bodies by themselves and then purchase compression drivers separately, but normally not cost effective if you can find a good used pair unless you simply want to use a different compression driver than ID uses. The ID's come in mini-horn (shorter) or full-bodied (longer) styles. As noted above, the full bodies will play a little lower but are harder to fit.

Would having the speakers low keep my sound stage low?

Not if setup properly. The midbass will be used within a region where the ear can't really differentiate height cues, and car audio horns placed under the dash are designed to use the dash essentially as an extension of the horn body.....so the sound will "roll" up the dash and provide a higher sound stage. The horns need to be properly mated to the underside of the dash without any gaps between the bottom of the dash and the top of the horn mouth. How they are aimed (horizontally and vertically) will affect imaging. Generally you want to mount them as wide (side to side) and as far back (towards the fire wall) as possible.

Also keep in mind, a large part of sound stage reproduction is frequency response and time alignment (there's much more to it also, of course, but these fundamentals need to be right to have a good foundation). You will, I repeat will, need equalization. You will also want to make sure you have adequate control over time alignment of all of the drivers.

Hope that helps.

[eggyhustles 33]

That answered so much..thanks

Are these the horns you're talking about?

CD1PRO - Image Dynamics Ultra Compact Competition HLCD Speaker System

Any pro's and con's of each three models?

I liked the low end the sls 8's provided but i'm willing to sacrifice that this time around for more volume. I def don't plan to port the door for the 8 for space reasons..they'll either be in IB or sealed..whichever would work better for the driver.

[Impious 1,476]

Your best bet would be the ID forums. It's been a while since I've done much reading on them, and I've not heard all 4 lines, so this is going from (my poor) memory of the subjective descriptions:

I would avoid the old CD1e's if you run across them. They didn't use real compression drivers, but instead piezo drivers. Ok entry level stuff, but not as senstivity or as good as the other models.

The CD1e v3 are entry level, not going to do as well in any category as the other models but finally use a real compression driver as opposed to the piezo in the older CD1e.

The CD1Pro doesn't have as good of midrange as the higher models but has better top end than the CD2Comp and slightly lower sensitivity than the CD2Comp

The CD2Comp has better midrange than the lower 2 lines, not as much top end as the CD1Pro and has the highest sensitivity of the group. There are also different "versions" of this driver; Titanium diaphragm (linked), Mylar diaphragm, then the CD2Neo (which I have) use basically a "modified" B&C DE500 compression driver instead of the standard CD2 compression driver. Everyone has a different opinion on which diaphragm/driver is "better"....I think general consensus was that the Neo's were slightly better.

The new Ultra's are supposed to be the best of both worlds and then some. I believe a lot of the Team ID guys like this driver better than either the CD1Pro's or the various iterations of the CD2's. It actually replaced both the CD1Pro and CD2Comp's in the product line-up, I believe because ID didn't see the need for either after the release of these.

The full bodies are going to be able to handle a lower crossover frequency than the minihorn versions, but the minihorns are a lot easier to fit in some vehicles. Also, while the CD1e drivers were crap some people used the CD1e full body lenses with compression drivers from the higher models because the throat was straight-entry as opposed to being angled which some people felt gave this combination a little better sound.

Like I said before, unless you really want new.....I would look for a used set first. I bought my CD2Neo's used for $220 shipped.....which is a better deal than normally found, but gives you an idea of how much can be saved new vs used on these. Being that the Ultra's are the newest model, they aren't as cheap used.....I think they normally go for the $400-500 range. But the CD1Pro and CD2's can normally be found in the $250-350 range used but not abused.