Sound customizing and response trimming on a budget

[altoncustomtech 773]

Alright. I've got to get this perfect. I'm LOVING the Bravox CS60K's. The output, mid-bass authority, and overall quality of sound is fantastic. They're truly a great set for the price I paid. The problem I'm running into with them is very common with speakers/components in their price range however and that is either beaming or break-up. Not sure exactly what the difference is just yet, though I do have a pretty good idea, but somewhere in the 4k area it's almost ear piercing on CERTAIN songs. It seems some of the songs have a lot of material in that range 2-5k that just causes them to nearly make your ears bleed, or so it feels. Then other songs couldn't be smoother or better balanced on the set.

That's leaving me really wanting to see if I can tame them down a little. I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about doing so without replacing the set (just yet) and I have figured a few ideas, but thought I would ask here to see what the best option is. ///M5, I know you'll have input here and I'm really looking forward to seeing what you have to say on the subject. Would it be easier to build a passive filter to flatten the response, or could I use a processor like the Alpine PXE-H650 (found a used one in perfect condition for half of new price), or would the miniDSP work to achieve what I'm looking for?

I'm planning on taking the signal generator we have at work to pinpoint the exact frequency(s) that's being so brutal, but once I have it I need to UNDERSTAND what to do with it and what that best course of action would be.

Obviously correct placement, orientation and installation is the best first step but lets be honest here. I'm still learning, still gaining experience and considering the amount of time it's taken to get this much done in my Jimmy so far, starting over from scratch for the best possible installation is really just not the best option for me. At least not yet, so I'm looking at spending a little time and extra money to do the job from this point.

While the most important thing in this little topic is to tame that middle range response, an option with time alignment to help center up and lift the stage wouldn't be bad either. Another reason I'm looking at that Alpine. Like I said, they do pretty good in their current placement and installation, but I KNOW they could be just a bit better. I'm trying to stay under $200 which I know will make it super difficult to find a great solution, but buying used is a fine option as well.

Beaming or break-up? Caused by a dip/peak in impedance at that frequency no? I know it's a problem and why different size and configured drivers can only be crossed so high before it becomes an issue. I'm just trying to figure out a solution that doesn't include brand new drivers in a new installation, a $600 processor, or both.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Is this a 3 way passive component set that you are running ??

Can I get a link and/or more details on this component set ??

Also, Do you have pics of your driver installation locations ?? Stock locations ??

Reasons why I'm asking this is because I'm doing a front stage upgrade as soon as I can get back from this next event ...

So if you don't mind, I'm really intersted in this thread ...

[///M5 2,833]

Need to first test each and every driver independently and then in combinations together. Until you know the problem, you can't solve it.

Pics/details on the mounting would help as well.

[ssh 924]

I would think the beaming would be around 2100hz.

You could make a quick diffraction ring out of cardboard, and place it over the driver. See if you notice any difference?

Edited October 11, 2012 by stefanhinote

[altoncustomtech 773]

Is this a 3 way passive component set that you are running ??

Can I get a link and/or more details on this component set ??

Also, Do you have pics of your driver installation locations ?? Stock locations ??

Reasons why I'm asking this is because I'm doing a front stage upgrade as soon as I can get back from this next event ...

So if you don't mind, I'm really intersted in this thread ...

It's just a passive 2-way set.

Here's a link to a test report on the set, although the ones in the test report are an earlier/later version than the ones I have. If I had the set in the review I don't think I'd have so much of an issue as it had a much better passive crossover included with it. Otherwise the drivers are the same except for mine have the phase plug, as best I can tell.

Yes, I'll include pics at the end of this reply. Yes stock location for the mids, the tweeter is about 4" above it mounted in the door card.

Need to first test each and every driver independently and then in combinations together. Until you know the problem, you can't solve it.

Pics/details on the mounting would help as well.

I'm definitely planning on testing them all seperately. I figured since the signal generator can cover everything from 1-500Khz that testing each driver within it's audible range should be pretty easy.

Can you give some details on what I should be listening for other than the shrieking response I hear when listening to music?

Pictures will be at the end of the reply.

I would think the beaming would be around 2100hz.

You could make a quick diffraction ring out of cardboard, and place it over the driver. See if you notice any difference?

I can EQ out up to 2khz on the PEQ built into the HU and with the Q set to .5 (widest setting) and the adjustment all the way down (-8db) it doesn't make quite a big enough difference in the anomaly I'm hearing compared to the detriment it causes to everything else. With the PEQ set to 1.5khz and 1khz it makes no difference at all which is why I was thinking it was closer to 4 or 5k.

I could very easily make a diffraction ring and try that out. I had thoughts about doing that exact thing but wasn't sure if the cardboard would even work at all.

Here's the pics of the components in their places.

They're mounted in some heavy duty baffles.

The doors are nearly fully deadened, all they're missing is the MLV.

Thanks for all the help guys. Let me know what other info you need. Got lots of pictures if you need more.

[///M5 2,833]

Just listen for anomalies and record when they are on which driver.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Geez ... With all the tools, cut wire, and everything "seeming" out of place reminds me of "EXACTLY" what my truck look like on a daily basis ... LOL Nice

Question ... without trying to pour alot of time alignment / processing to it, do you seem to have sort of "Rainbow Effect" to your stage and image ?? Like it sounds great on the center, but seeming a little low as far as left and right separation goes ...

Also, is there stocl locations in the dash that you are not using at the moment ??

[altoncustomtech 773]

Geez ... With all the tools, cut wire, and everything "seeming" out of place reminds me of "EXACTLY" what my truck look like on a daily basis ... LOL Nice

Question ... without trying to pour alot of time alignment / processing to it, do you seem to have sort of "Rainbow Effect" to your stage and image ?? Like it sounds great on the center, but seeming a little low as far as left and right separation goes ...

Also, is there stocl locations in the dash that you are not using at the moment ??

Actually the left and right seperation is fairly good. Imaging isn't bad at all, just that the stage height is a bit low and I honestly expected it to be worse than it is. Most of the music sounds like it's coming right from the middle of the dash board with the occasional instrument seeming to be just below the dash. Imaging as far as instrument, sound and singer locations seems appropriately wide for the width of the truck itself. Most of the time you can pick out musician and instrument placements. Like I said, it's not bad considering the lackluster placement.

Yes it has factory 4x6 tweeter plates in the dash. The tweeters were WAY too bright up there and bouncing off the windshield. The door placements and off axis angle was the best compromise I got for the tweeter placement. At least to my ears.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Sorry for asking a ton of questions here ... But What amplifier are you runnning on this component set ??

[altoncustomtech 773]

Sorry for asking a ton of questions here ... But What amplifier are you runnning on this component set ??

It's fine, I sure don't mind.

Sundown SAX-125.2

[Randal Johnson 544]

I'm not so sure about the "text book" way of doing things, But to get as "attention to details" as you are, Most vehicles (I've seen) have a pair of 32 band equalizers ( one for left and one for right) installed into their vehicle for what they call "Notch EQing" to get everything to pan out like they want for extreme judging ... I'm not sure if this is what you are after, but its what it sounds like ...

Which is the main reason why I'm making changes to mine ... No, I'm not going to do the twin 32 band eq thing either, but I am concentrated very hard on driver placement ...

[altoncustomtech 773]

Just listen for anomalies and record when they are on which driver.

I'll do so and report back here what I've noticed.

[altoncustomtech 773]

I'm not so sure about the "text book" way of doing things, But to get as "attention to details" as you are, Most vehicles (I've seen) have a pair of 32 band equalizers ( one for left and one for right) installed into their vehicle for what they call "Notch EQing" to get everything to pan out like they want for extreme judging ... I'm not sure if this is what you are after, but its what it sounds like ...

Which is the main reason why I'm making changes to mine ... No, I'm not going to do the twin 32 band eq thing either, but I am concentrated very hard on driver placement ...

I agree, I'd prefer not to have a couple of those monster sized EQ's in my truck, there's no room, LOL. Which is why I figured a DSP is the way to go and yeah I'm after as near perfect as I can get with the current setup and it's really pretty darn good to me. I definitely get a lot of great comments from the people I show it off to, most of which center around the "I can't believe it sounds this good" or "I never thought that song could sound so good in a car" type of comments.

Driver placement is a tough one in my Jimmy and I can't imagine it's much easier in your truck. There's just no damn room in mine to get them in optimal locations.

[Randal Johnson 544]

This is what we did to one of our Trailblazers ... Installed the tweeters in the sail pannels. Would this be possible to do to yours ?? Granted with the driver seraration, you may need to go active, but I kind of think thats where you are wanting to go anyways ...

No I am not saying in any way that this is what you should do, I'm only asking if you think this might work in your application ???

Edited October 11, 2012 by Cablguy184

[altoncustomtech 773]

This is what we did to one of our Trailblazers ... Installed the tweeters in the sail pannels. Would this be possible to do to yours ?? Granted with the driver seraration, you may need to go active, but I kind of think thats where you are wanting to go anyways ...

No I am not saying in any way that this is what you should do, I'm only asking if you think this might work in your application ???

Before permanently mounting the drivers I placed them in every possible mounting location and listened to it for about a week (while playing with wiring phase and EQ adjustments) in each location before moving them and finally deciding that just above the mid was the best location. That listening test included the sail panels as there is enough room there to mount them. Given that I did that test with them as a passive set I think you're right that I would likely need to be operating the set active to possibly get the best response from the current OR other mounting locations. You're also right that I'm looking at and moving slowly to doing an active setup. However I'm looking more at doing a big mid-bass and full range type two way active setup, much like jroadtatts did in his Honda, when I finally feel I have enough information and experience under my belt to attempt such an undertaking.

[///M5 2,833]

Moving your drivers or buying a 32 band graphic is not what you should do yet. FIRST figure out what/where the concern is

[altoncustomtech 773]

Moving your drivers or buying a 32 band graphic is not what you should do yet. FIRST figure out what/where the concern is

Oh I'm not planning on doing ANYTHING at all yet in that regard. My purpose behind the topic is to gain some insight and information on how to go about solving the problem and fully understand the need to identify the root cause of the problem and that only then can any recommendations be made as to the solution.

I've been here long enough to understand that much for certain. As soon as work gives me a few free minutes me and that signal generator are going to see what and where things get hairy. Hopefully with a detailed report from what I find the problem can be identified and an appropriate solution found.

Again, thank you guys for your help with this. I'm hoping that the information and such will be able to help others as well.

///M5, would you recommend connecting the signal generator to the inputs on the amp and disconnecting/reconnecting the drivers as I test them individually and together so that the amp and passive crossovers are in the chain so that I get the full picture or should I connect it without each of those as well. I'm not sure how much voltage output the generator provides or if it's enough to get any real volume connected to the drivers alone.

[ssh 924]

Not sure why you need a signal generator as you can just download test tones, or use an app on your phone for generating the sine waves.

It would probably be nice to bypass the crossover just so you know what ever your testing isn't getting adjusted in any way from the xo design. Though it may not be a big deal either if its just a basic design?

[Randal Johnson 544]

However I'm looking more at doing a big mid-bass and full range type two way active setup, much like jroadtatts did in his Honda, when I finally feel I have enough information and experience under my belt to attempt such an undertaking.

I really wish I could demo this ride ... Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image, but I can not remember his goals with that vehicle ...

My doors are really powerful too and seem to lower my stage at times, so I'm hoping this upgrade is going to fix this without doing anything to the doors ...

[altoncustomtech 773]

Not sure why you need a signal generator as you can just download test tones, or use an app on your phone for generating the sine waves.

It would probably be nice to bypass the crossover just so you know what ever your testing isn't getting adjusted in any way from the xo design. Though it may not be a big deal either if its just a basic design?

I think it would be easier than the test tones. I can move up and down in frequency very quickly and easily with it's dial. So if I find something odd it will be much easier than moving forward and back in tracks and therefore quicker. Also it adjusts by 1hz at a time through 4 ranges from 20-20000hz which allows for accuracy at speed. It's also a precision instrument that will maintain the exact same level of output throughout that range which will help ensure I don't get anything out of whack from one octave to another. I can't help but question the accuracy of the majority of test tones that are free to download in that regard. Besides that it's no harder to hook up than anything else.

As for the crossover, yeah it's of the very basic variety. I would imagine that considering I am planning on running the set passive it made sense to leave it in the chain, but I wanted to be sure.

I really wish I could demo this ride ... Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image, but I can not remember his goals with that vehicle ...

My doors are really powerful too and seem to lower my stage at times, so I'm hoping this upgrade is going to fix this without doing anything to the doors ...

Oh me too. Him and I have talked at length over the last few years about that ride. I don't recall him mentioning any problems with the stage in that setup. I don't think they play high enough and he has things level matched really well so as not to affect much in the way of staging. One of these days I'll get a chance to demo that thing tho.

[///M5 2,833]

Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image,

Cone area has nothing to do with it, nor this thread.

///M5, would you recommend connecting the signal generator to the inputs on the amp and disconnecting/reconnecting the drivers as I test them individually and together so that the amp and passive crossovers are in the chain so that I get the full picture or should I connect it without each of those as well. I'm not sure how much voltage output the generator provides or if it's enough to get any real volume connected to the drivers alone.

I'd recommend downloading FuncGen on your phone and plugging it into your headunit as an aux input. Then I'd disconnect the other drivers AT the crossover. Gives you an excuse to play with the phasing between the mid/tweet as well.

Depending on your phone you should be able to just max the level. I've tested 4 Droid based devices and none of them distort to a level that would be a concern. I've see a test on the Ishit phone as well and it does the same. Voltage will be lower than a normal input, but so you lose up to 6dB or so which really won't matter as the tones will be annoying enough on their own. And yes, FuncGen has a slider AND digital readout. Works way easier than my analog function generator. Probably actually going to just sell it here quick while it's still worth something.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image,

Cone area has nothing to do with it, nor this thread.

Would you please explain why this is the case instead of just telling me that I'm wrong ??

Thank you ...

[ssh 924]

Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image,

Cone area has nothing to do with it, nor this thread.

Would you please explain why this is the case instead of just telling me that I'm wrong ??

Thank you ...

We rely on our pinna (outer ear), and torso shadowing for vertical cues. Pinna is the most significant, and doesn't start picking up any cues until the wavelength of the frequency is near / smaller then the size of our pinna. So it's safe to say the majority of vertical cues come in around 3khz. We also rely on torso shadowing around 1khz, but to a much lesser degree.

So stage height is dependent on the location of the drivers playing the frequencies that give these cues away. Hence being able to put a mid in the kick, tweeter in a-pillars, and end up with a high stage height.

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest searching head related transfer function.

Edited October 12, 2012 by stefanhinote

[///M5 2,833]

And of course frequency and

Cone area that large would seem to pull the stage way down if you was really concerned with stage and image,

Cone area has nothing to do with it, nor this thread.

Would you please explain why this is the case instead of just telling me that I'm wrong ??

Thank you ...

Your whole preface is confusing to me. A larger diameter cone in the same location as a smaller cone will not change the stage height at all. If there was even some semblance of logic in the statement I could tell you why it was poor logic, but I don't see any. Cone area is not deterministic of frequency a driver plays and Stefan outlined how frequency can influence height.

I suppose since your subs are your largest drivers they pull your stage down too?

[Randal Johnson 544]

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest searching head related transfer function.

No need, you answered my question ...

Thank you Sir