Ultracaps are they worth it?

[pmureika 31]

Will these really replace a battery?

[gprestonmoto 89]

Despite offering a huge leap over regular capacitors, ultracaps still

lag behind batteries when it comes to energy storage capacity.

Ultracapacitors (which are also more expensive per energy unit

than batteries), can store only about 5 percent of the energy of

comparable lithium-ion batteries. And that, said Schindall, is a “fatal

flaw” for many applications.

It would be technically possible, for example, to use ultracaps

instead of lithium-ion batteries in cell phones, with some serious

benefits: You would never have to replace the ultracapacitor, said

Schindall, and the phone would recharge very quickly. But the phone

wouldn’t stay charged for very long at all with today’s

ultracapacitors—perhaps as little as 90 minutes, or five hours max,

Schindall said.

Ultracapacitors are very effective, however, at accepting or

delivering a sudden surge of energy, and that makes them a good partner

for lithium-ion batteries, Schindall explained. In an electric car, for

example, an ultracapacitor could provide the power needed for

acceleration, while a battery provides range and recharges the ultracap

between surges.

Think of it this way: The ultracapacitor is like a small bucket with a

big spout. Water can flow in or out very fast, but there’s not very

much of it. The battery is like a big bucket with a tiny spout. It can

hold much more water, but it takes a long time to fill and drain it. The

small bucket can provide a brief “power surge” (“lots of water” in this

analogy), and then refill gradually from the big bucket, Schindall

explained.

http://gigaom.com/2011/07/12/how-ultracapacitors-work-and-why-they-fall-short/

[jcarter1885 995]

Meh......

[stevemead08 752]

Worth it for what? What purpose would you use them for?

[pmureika 31]

Worth it for what? What purpose would you use them for?

To help the rear battery with burst power.

 

Would this help with high powered systems?

[neo_styles 43]

For a burp machine, I have seen a couple vehicles use it quite well. The thing about ultracaps is they're very finicky and need to be set up properly or things can get disastrous quick. That's a lot of stored potential to have blow up in your face...literally.

 

The SAFE way to use a bank of ultracaps would ideally be when paired with a charge/discharge circuit that would allow them to be able to ramp up to voltage with enough delay to avoid catastrophic failure. It's possible to use them as a starter replacement, but if this is not a daily driver, they slowly discharge over time and could be rendered useless over as little as a week's time. I know there's a YT video out there of someone testing a bank of ultracaps as a starter replacement and was successful, but without that circuit in place, I wouldn't trust them.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

It's the same exact stuff that Miller has been using in their welding machines for a decade. I replaces six caps on my mig welder about six months ago and they had the same model number as these "super caps" some people are using. Only difference is I paid 25 bucks for them from Miller and these audio people are paying 70 on eBay for them.

Batteries don't have enough risistanse to limit a 5 second burp. The only way you are going to gain anything is if you didn't have sufficient enough reserve in the first place.

[pmureika 31]

For a burp machine, I have seen a couple vehicles use it quite well. The thing about ultracaps is they're very finicky and need to be set up properly or things can get disastrous quick. That's a lot of stored potential to have blow up in your face...literally.

 

The SAFE way to use a bank of ultracaps would ideally be when paired with a charge/discharge circuit that would allow them to be able to ramp up to voltage with enough delay to avoid catastrophic failure. It's possible to use them as a starter replacement, but if this is not a daily driver, they slowly discharge over time and could be rendered useless over as little as a week's time. I know there's a YT video out there of someone testing a bank of ultracaps as a starter replacement and was successful, but without that circuit in place, I wouldn't trust them.

I was just wondering about their use in car stereo systems so you wouldn't have to use as big  of a battery bank in the rear.

[neo_styles 43]

For a burp machine, I have seen a couple vehicles use it quite well. The thing about ultracaps is they're very finicky and need to be set up properly or things can get disastrous quick. That's a lot of stored potential to have blow up in your face...literally.

 

The SAFE way to use a bank of ultracaps would ideally be when paired with a charge/discharge circuit that would allow them to be able to ramp up to voltage with enough delay to avoid catastrophic failure. It's possible to use them as a starter replacement, but if this is not a daily driver, they slowly discharge over time and could be rendered useless over as little as a week's time. I know there's a YT video out there of someone testing a bank of ultracaps as a starter replacement and was successful, but without that circuit in place, I wouldn't trust them.

I was just wondering about their use in car stereo systems so you wouldn't have to use as big  of a battery bank in the rear.

We actually discussed this at length on Mobile Audio a while back. Here's the link if you feel like reading a TON about it. The video I mentioned is contained in the thread as well:

 

http://mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?2170-Capacitors-are-cool&highlight=ultracaps

[pmureika 31]

It's the same exact stuff that Miller has been using in their welding machines for a decade. I replaces six caps on my mig welder about six months ago and they had the same model number as these "super caps" some people are using. Only difference is I paid 25 bucks for them from Miller and these audio people are paying 70 on eBay for them.

Batteries don't have enough risistanse to limit a 5 second burp. The only way you are going to gain anything is if you didn't have sufficient enough reserve in the first place.

That makes sense.

[grumby13 3]

thank you pmureika for asking this was going to adventiually

[pmureika 31]

thank you pmureika for asking this was going to adventiually

Your welcome.

 

I was wondering the same thing myself.

[grumby13 3]

i know a few people at the local dbdrag shows who use them and there is one his name is ron a black yukon of team db addicts uses them all the time he has a stock alt and i believe one regular battery. i was told that with the bank of 6 of them in one bank the large capacity of the them all together they act like a battery.

[Julian 641]

treat them slightly wrong and you have a bomb, batteries are much more forgiving

[neo_styles 43]

treat them slightly wrong and you have a bomb, batteries are much more forgiving

Not sure I'd go that far. Really, all they need is a circuit that allows them to be slowly charged and then a means to disconnect them when the battery is removed/car turned off.

[nigel 148]

i know a few people at the local dbdrag shows who use them and there is one his name is ron a black yukon of team db addicts uses them all the time he has a stock alt and i believe one regular battery. i was told that with the bank of 6 of them in one bank the large capacity of the them all together they act like a battery.

 

 

how much would 6 of these cost in comparison to just adding a the single battery that they "act like"?

[neo_styles 43]

i know a few people at the local dbdrag shows who use them and there is one his name is ron a black yukon of team db addicts uses them all the time he has a stock alt and i believe one regular battery. i was told that with the bank of 6 of them in one bank the large capacity of the them all together they act like a battery.

 

 

how much would 6 of these cost in comparison to just adding a the single battery that they "act like"?

I've seen around the network of $400 for a bank of 6. Add in the extra cost for resistors and a maxi fuse. If you look through the thread I linked, keep_hope_alive is running once successfully in his Altima as a trunk-mounted second "battery." Got off the phone with him about an hour ago and he still has no reported issues.

[grumby13 3]

For a bank of six is 125 and it is all put together and a new bat would be 500+

[grumby13 3]

Um going to replace my duralast platinum 34r with one

[edouble101 314]

No do not use these to start your car on a daily basis. Once the charge is depleted they will damage your alternator and any other batteries you have in parallel with them. 

 

Maxwell has the charging circuits designed that regulate the charge once they are at max capacity. In fact you can buy the banks and circuits already assembled. You would need a battery isolator in between the cap bank and your starting battery. But even then if the caps are fully discharged you could damage the rest of the electrical system if they see instantaneous +12v from a battery or alternator. 

 

IMO safer charging circuits need to be designed for automotive use. Eventually I think there will be a benefit from them in certain applications. 

[Julian 641]

treat them slightly wrong and you have a bomb, batteries are much more forgiving

Not sure I'd go that far. Really, all they need is a circuit that allows them to be slowly charged and then a means to disconnect them when the battery is removed/car turned off.

I would say batteries are much more forgiving, no need for any of that. I've seen a few of these caps explode from over charging and it is scary.

[jonbearsmt 919]

NOT for daily or music

[grumby13 3]

I'm using it as a second battery I have a lead acid upfront

@bigjon one of the competiers use's the caps in his daily system but only as a second battery not as a starter. and he is fine with everything but he is pcm regulated and drops from 14.6 to 12.6 on idle and those caps he has work just fine but he gets it ffrom a guy on ebay for like two banks of 6 for 222. i was told by him and the other person that uses them that in a bank of 6 they act like a battery due to the high farad amount

Edited October 17, 2013 by grumby13

[grumby13 3]

if you would like to take a read this is an interesting thread seems to me i will purchase a super(ultra) cap bank in the next few weeks to help me get my wattage up a little 622 peak wattage at 4 ohms on a crescendo 2k is not making me very happy but that wattage helps me get 141.4 peak at i believe was 35 to 36hzi have to wait til the 27th to see what it was. plus be able to see where i stand now and where i stand after i install the ultracaps

http://mobileaudioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?2170-Capacitors-are-cool/page8&highlight=ultracaps

[///M5 2,833]

I wish I was in a position to throw away money.