2k vs 3k on BTL N2

[///M5 2,833]

wait what about cab gain and things like that.... lets say he got a half db gain... but some notes could gain even more then that depending on his cab....

because i know if you do the math on your watt to db loudness its LOUDER in the car or truck because of the gain...

untell you get into the 150+ db range

Obviously you don't understand hearing OR cabin gain. It won't depend and NO you CAN'T hear it....or perhaps you sell snake oil as well.

[nick_19 1]

OP here. Y'all are quite interesting for sure. Thanks for all the opinions. I'll probably end up going with a SAZ2k or similar. I'm not stupid with my equipment and know how to care for it. I'll put the system on the meter for sure, but it's me and friend's personal meter; I won't compete with this setup unless it's for fun. If I can't tell the difference, I don't need the extra power. Besides, the SAZ2k, for example, puts out over 2400 watts at 12.5V in Jacobs test, so after everything is accounted for, I'd rather have a solid 2k watts than a voltage dropping, unclean 2.5k-3k watts. It sounds like I won't be able to tell the difference anyways. If I find a good deal on a 3k, I'll get it just to have the headroom and be able to not run the amp as hard.

And as far as the budget goes, I don't want to waste money, but I will spend money to have my system work at its full potential. I mean I'm not going to buy a $500 sub just to not use it like it was meant to be used (it'll be fully loaded).

Edited December 16, 2010 by nick_19

[shizzzon 461]

wait what about cab gain and things like that.... lets say he got a half db gain... but some notes could gain even more then that depending on his cab....

because i know if you do the math on your watt to db loudness its LOUDER in the car or truck because of the gain...

untell you get into the 150+ db range

Just because you know ABOUT something doesnt mean you know about THAT something.

Shoulda coulda woulda... doesnt matter..

Results on paper stay on paper...They have never in the history of car audio made it to the meter.

Results on the meter, stay on the meter.

Formulas may be accurate but the information plugged into them is inaccurate. It's called human error.

[Impious 1,476]

Idk about the rest of you guys...

If the guy has the money or has the chance to get a 3k over a 2k...

3k all the way...

Plz dont hate but i feel if a subs in a box and it had 2000 watts then bumped too 3000 watts ... i could tell if it was louder or not... thats a 50% gain... on power... I seen all the points that were made about that tho but... thats my view

and its only 50% over powering... I think a btl with no options could take it. Plus its in a ported box... as long as his subsonic and lowpass is set on dial he should never have a problem.. or at least i would hope

( and dont go crazy on me the 50%gain is not spl i was saying the extra 1000 watts is the 50% gain )

Yes, it's a 50% increase in power. Sounds substantial, doesn't it?

Until you realize that an increase of 50% power yields a maximum increase in SPL of 1.76db, without considering the effects of power compression. If you don't understand power compression, look up Neil's article in the Tech Section here on the site. How much power compression is a subwoofer going to be experiencing at a level of 3kw? Substantial. Substantial enough that it would easily bring that 1.76db maximum theoretical gain well below the 1db mark. It would be entirely possible for there to be a 50% increase in power and zero gain in SPL, depending on the thermal capacity of the subwoofer and how the subwoofer behaves mechanically in the enclosure. So he would be increasing his power by 50% and have an increase in output of less than 1db in return. Are you or anyone else going to hear an increase of less than 1db in subbass with a BTL playing with 2-3kw of input power? No, they are not.

The only thing the increased power would do for the OP is take more money out of his wallet, cause him to tax his electrical system even more, cause the sub additional stress with no audible benefit.

You can state your view all you want....that doesn't make it accurate.

wait what about cab gain and things like that.... lets say he got a half db gain... but some notes could gain even more then that depending on his cab....

because i know if you do the math on your watt to db loudness its LOUDER in the car or truck because of the gain...

untell you get into the 150+ db range

What does any of this have to do with the amplifier?

[Impious 1,476]

Besides, the SAZ2k, for example, puts out over 2400 watts at 12.5V in Jacobs test,

Those results are misleading. Don't pay any attention to them.

[nick_19 1]

Besides, the SAZ2k, for example, puts out over 2400 watts at 12.5V in Jacobs test,

Those results are misleading. Don't pay any attention to them.

Any way you could elaborate on this?

[Adrian_D 520]

Idk about the rest of you guys...

If the guy has the money or has the chance to get a 3k over a 2k...

3k all the way...

If it's a toss of coin, 3000w with a lower level and there is room for upgrade. But if you need to save extra and plan to use the full potential into this specific install, we're back to 2000w

[Robert 9]

Right off the bat, I'm a dork lately on the "tech" guys and the "super" ear guy tug of war on most of the threads on here when it comes to "1000 RMS" differences. The only thing I come up with say half the city I live in doesn't even know about this website or anything outside of what the guy at the flea market that is installing the system tells them, these people when buying a speaker of certain RMS they want a amp that does the same RMS output to match. In there head why would they get a 3000 RMS sub just to throw 2000 RMS at it? Now get the firing squad ready for me too I have been around when two different systems are installed and you can notice the "stronger" one easily. The dude with "weaker" system will have that look on his face of . If the sub that anyone is getting can handle X amount of watts and they can afford an amp that matches the sub then whats the problem?

Thanks again for you guys patience with me. If you want request for me to hit myself with a mallet its at arms reach

[Impious 1,476]

Besides, the SAZ2k, for example, puts out over 2400 watts at 12.5V in Jacobs test,

Those results are misleading. Don't pay any attention to them.

Any way you could elaborate on this?

For starters, he didn't do anything to measure distortion. For all we know the signal was clipped to all hell, or he was operating the amplifier at a high distortion level.....both of which would be of no use to someone using the amplifier for musical "daily driving" purposes. A lot of people try to compare the figures in Jacob's test to the amplifiers rated power and quickly exclaim that Sundown is significantly underrated......what they don't account for is the fact that rated power is measured at a specified distortion level, and Jacob's test doesn't address the amount of distortion the amplifier was operating at during his tests. So no, someone can not expect to toss a SAZ2K in their vehicle and have a usable 2400+ of power output as the distortion at that level of power may be substantial, or the signal might be clipped, etc. You can get a hell of a lot more power out of any amplifier if you ignore distortion, as Jacob did.

Second, we don't know the accuracy of his test equipment.

Third, he used a reactive load (the loudspeaker). This is a quote I found on another site that sums it up much better than I could:

You must use a non-reactive load, however, when testing an amplifier for power output, because the power measurement is only accurate into a purely resistive load. If you are using a reactive load, the actual output power is equal to the voltage multiplied by the current, multiplied by the cosine of the phase angle between them. Highly inductive or capacitive loads can fool you into thinking you have a higher output power than you really do, because, even though the voltage is higher, the current is not in phase with it, so the real power output cannot be accurately determined by measuring the voltage, squaring it, and dividing by the specified impedance, you must multiply by the cosine of the phase angle. A purely resistive load will have the voltage and current in phase, so the cosine of the phase angle is equal to 1, and can be ignored.