Is there a difference in output between 400-1000 watts?

[Angelboy863 21]

My buddies and I were messing around with some of our equipment today and it sounds like there's no difference in output.

My friend has a Rockford t1 15 d2 wired to one ohm on a sundown saz1000. Box is 3.0 cubic ft tuned 32-34hz in the back of a 02 Ford explorer. That thing bumps! Very loud and powerful. So I wanted to try the amp on my setup and my other friend wired his sax 125.2 to the t1 bridged at 4 ohms getting 400 watts. Tuned it and they sound virtually the same??? We all were thinking something is wrong with his saz1000 but could there be no audible difference between the two amps? Same song and volume same setup just swapped amps. We're thinking something is wrong with the amp. But idk? Can someone help us out lol

[emh9009 199]

Just because the amp is rated at one power level doesn't mean it's constantly producing that exact power level.

[ssh 924]

Unless you measured the power output from both amps, your not comparing "400watts" to "1000watts."

[jokers10 19]

It also depends on the setup as well. If a sub is setup with an enclosure that pounds at 400 Watts, pounding a 1000 Watts, will only sound just a bit louder. That is why when I design systems, I always choose the woofer size first, based on the amount of space available. At that point you pick the motor, amp combo that fits the budget.

So why buy a larger amp if a smaller one will produce close to the same output? It is all about headroom. Clean efficiant power is where the sound is at. Stuff is gonna break if your amp has to run at full tilt all the time.

[jonbearsmt 919]

at low levels,

same sub same box, same everything.. changing the amp from a clamped 400 watts to a clamped 1000 watts should in theroy gain 3 DB, and would be a great gain in output...

BUT, if you have a 5000 watt clamped output and you add 600 watts of clamped power then the gain by ear would be nothing. and likly very little on a meter.

Edited May 31, 2012 by bigjon

[ssh 924]

at low levels,

same sub same box, same everything.. changing the amp from a clamped 400 watts to a clamped 1000 watts should in theroy gain 3 DB, and would be a great gain in output...

BUT, if you have a 5000 watt clamped output and you add 600 watts of clamped power then the gain by ear would be nothing. and likly very little on a meter.

log(1000/400)*10 = 3.9794dB

However speakers aren't very efficient, and they have their limitations.

[jokers10 19]

3 db is not a huge difference though. Your ear can distinguish the difference between the 3db, but it is not a night and day difference. 3 db is about the difference of 1 maybe 2 clicks on the volume know depending on your head unit.

[ssh 924]

3 db is not a huge difference though. Your ear can distinguish the difference between the 3db, but it is not a night and day difference. 3 db is about the difference of 1 maybe 2 clicks on the volume know depending on your head unit.

Perceived loudness is also dependent on frequency, so I wouldn't use such a broad generality.

[Angelboy863 21]

Great info guys thank you! Sad thing is it may be clamped power because he has stock electrical and 4guage power and ground and we didn't use a dmm. Lol the look on friend's face when his saz1000 had pretty much same output as the sax125.2. In my situation I have a 2 door coupe and sub, box and port are in the trunk facing the rear. I wanted an sa12 because I'd power it with the saz1000 that I purchased (never received I'm going to backout of that buy) but now I'd be satisfied with an e12 and sax125.2 or 100.2. At first I was sure the audible difference would more than double but since it wouldn't be THAT much of a difference, I'd rather spend the extra cash on a good front stage. Not to mention my electrical probably wouldn't like that 1000 watts.

I figured because the wattage is more than double (400 watts to 1000 watts) it would be way louder as well. But we did some more experimenting and put a Sony 250 watt monoblock to the t1 at 2 ohms getting the full "250" watts and it was noticeably not as loud. But that could vary with the amps correct? The Sony amp is almost 10 years old. My friends concluded that Sony just sucks compared to Sundown which could be true.

[jonbearsmt 919]

someone does not know what clamped power means:P

[ricksi30 923]

someone does not know what clamped power means:P

Haha yep.

[shizzzon 461]

If you really want to learn more about what you are or aren't hearing, you need a pressure meter.

Just because you aren't competing doesn't mean it's not a tool you do not need.

I owned pressure meters for quite a while before competing and I learned a lot about my car and how it functions.

Just by having that experience, I was able to greatly increase it's output even on an audible level without buying anymore equipment to achieve such goals.

[16K 159]

someone does not know what clamped power means:P

lol +1

[Impious 1,476]

at low levels,

same sub same box, same everything.. changing the amp from a clamped 400 watts to a clamped 1000 watts should in theroy gain 3 DB, and would be a great gain in output...

BUT, if you have a 5000 watt clamped output and you add 600 watts of clamped power then the gain by ear would be nothing. and likly very little on a meter.

log(1000/400)*10 = 3.9794dB

However speakers aren't very efficient, and they have their limitations.

To be a little more specific, that is the maximum theoretical difference. The actual difference in output will be less due to power compression, which means that the subwoofer (or any speaker) is not converting the same percentage of that additional power into acoustic output due to various reasons. I don't know the power handling limits of the RF sub or how it responds to that enclosure, but it's entirely possible that power compression would reduce the actual increase in output by 1db or more.

As was mentioned, the amount of perceived difference depends on many different factors, including frequency. A ~4db difference in the bass would be noticeable but not dramatic. But that's before power compression, realistically the difference would be something less than ~4db.

On top of that, you don't actually know how much power you were applying to the subwoofer. So it's all a moot point anyways.

[Angelboy863 21]

.. Wait lol

[///M5 2,833]

is the wait lol due to comprehension?

Here it is in a nutshell. You compared two things for which you didn't actually have any ideas what the settings were and thought they sounded the same. The settings may have been the same, the output may have been different. Your method of comparison DIDN'T work nor show or prove anything other than you don't quite understand how to compare the amps. Theoretically even if you had done the setup correctly you also may not have noticed a difference since the best possible gain isn't that much and your ears (all humans) are dumb enough to hardly notice that when spread out over a period of time.

[Notorious97200 339]

Good news, OP ! The 1000 w amp is not bad !

If you're satisfied with a 400 w amp (the 125.2) keep it and use it. Don't need to have !!!

[Angelboy863 21]

Lol yeah I was thinking "clamped" was clipped signal for some reason. So I can still be on the cheaper end and get less of a powerful amp and get almost the same output as the powerful amp, in this situation with the variables we tested. The gain in db from more powerful amps is mostly for competition right? As in, that'll be why they do it.

[jonbearsmt 919]

if you want to look at it that way sure, but, your results are not common something along the way was not correct IMO> amp settings, ohm load, somthing

my first question would be.. what was the final ohm load that you were presenting each of the amps...

i know for a fact that the 125.2 is only rated for a 4 ohm mono load. and a 2 ohm stereo load.

[Angelboy863 21]

if you want to look at it that way sure, but, your results are not common something along the way was not correct IMO> amp settings, ohm load, somthing

my first question would be.. what was the final ohm load that you were presenting each of the amps...

i know for a fact that the 125.2 is only rated for a 4 ohm mono load. and a 2 ohm stereo load.

We had the 125.2 bridged at 4 ohms and the 1000d @ one ohm

[jonbearsmt 919]

so the sub was a dual 2?

[Impious 1,476]

Lol yeah I was thinking "clamped" was clipped signal for some reason. So I can still be on the cheaper end and get less of a powerful amp and get almost the same output as the powerful amp, in this situation with the variables we tested. The gain in db from more powerful amps is mostly for competition right? As in, that'll be why they do it.

While your comparison was generally useless for the conclusions you were trying to draw from it (that a 400w amp sounds like a 1kw amp), you're actually not very far off from the truth. Which is that it takes very dramatic increases in power to make any really significant differences in output. As you can figure out from the formula stephan posted earlier, if you double the power output increases by a maximum of 3db. So even if we assume zero power compression, the difference in output between 500w and 1kw would be audible but not substantially so. If we factor in some amount of power compression, the difference could be anywhere from still audible to not audible at all.

So it's entirely possible to save money, buy a 500w amp instead of a 1kw and end up just as happy with minimal audible difference in output.

[Angelboy863 21]

so the sub was a dual 2?

Yes

[Angelboy863 21]

Lol yeah I was thinking "clamped" was clipped signal for some reason. So I can still be on the cheaper end and get less of a powerful amp and get almost the same output as the powerful amp, in this situation with the variables we tested. The gain in db from more powerful amps is mostly for competition right? As in, that'll be why they do it.

While your comparison was generally useless for the conclusions you were trying to draw from it (that a 400w amp sounds like a 1kw amp), you're actually not very far off from the truth. Which is that it takes very dramatic increases in power to make any really significant differences in output. As you can figure out from the formula stephan posted earlier, if you double the power output increases by a maximum of 3db. So even if we assume zero power compression, the difference in output between 500w and 1kw would be audible but not substantially so. If we factor in some amount of power compression, the difference could be anywhere from still audible to not audible at all.

So it's entirely possible to save money, buy a 500w amp instead of a 1kw and end up just as happy with minimal audible difference in output.

Right on lol. Because I have a system because I like listening to music in my car, upgraded. I'm not into competitions trying to get big numbers or anything. If musically I can get away with a 400w amp that'll sound almost the same as a 1000w, I will. Saves me money. Thank you I learned something today.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Angelboy863

[///M5 2,833]

Why not a 200w amp then?