BTL VS ZCON VS MAYHEM

[swift 501]

This thread is a Fail.

[Duran 387]

Lol at these woofers sounding bad. The enclosure has much more to do with it sounding good or bad than the driver.

[ssh 924]

If given only a fs of a subwoofer, I'm pretty sure you can't tell the sound of it. Kinda the same thing with the efficiency. Just because it has a higher efficiency doesn't mean it'll play louder. I hope someone will jump in here to explain that. That is what I think though.

There are many knowledgable people on this forum. Like I said before, if you make a well thought out thread and provide as much info as you can. These people will be more than happy to help.

Before cabin gain

90db@1w= 90db

90db@2w= 93db

90db@4w= 96db

90db@8w= 99db

90db@16w= 102db

90db@32w=105db

90db@64w= 108db

90db@128w= 111db

90db@256w= 114

90db@500w= 117

90db@1000w= 120

90db@2000w= 123

90db@4000w= 126

Each time you double your power you will gain approx 3db.

And each time you double the amount of subwoofers you will gain approx 3db.

And FS gives you a great idea of how the sub will preform low FS= deep punchy subwoofers and higher freq= louder and less punchy.

By that logic all you have to do is add/remove mass to the dustcup to adjust Fs, run lots of power, and you'll end up with super duper loud low bass!

[SPL?? 34]

As a general rule, a lower FS almost always indicates that a woofer that would be better at low frequency reproduction than a woofer with a higher FS.. This is not always the case though, because other parameters affect the ultimate performance as well....

Edited March 9, 2013 by SPL??

[KyleBrown 121]

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

[SPL?? 34]

"SQL" is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around "SQL", using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

This is true.

[EPerez 236]

As a general rule, a lower FS almost always indicates that a woofer that would be better at low frequency reproduction than a woofer with a higher FS.. This is not always the case though, because other parameters affect the ultimate performance as well....

You're not listening to what they're saying.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Bassink

[Tirefryr 1,742]

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

This is true.

If you smoke crack.  So many holes in this, I don'y even know where to start filling in.  Here's the problem with the internet.

[jonbearsmt 919]

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET?

 

 

 yes i was yelling,

 

 mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

[SPL?? 34]

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET?

 

 

 yes i was yelling,

 

 mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...

[Ohjay 116]

specs not necessary

[Tirefryr 1,742]

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET?

 

 

 yes i was yelling,

 

 mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...

Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters.   That's been proven.  Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver.  They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application.  There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself.  Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? 

 

Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

specs not necessary

  OMG are they insane?!  Only the bomb squad should be handling that!

[SPL?? 34]

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET?

 

 

 yes i was yelling,

 

 mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...

Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters.   That's been proven.  Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver.  They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application.  There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself.  Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? 

 

Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race.

Its a lot easier to win a race with a race car then it is with a horse and buggy.... I never mentioned enclosures...why would you assume that these high end subwoofers im discussing wouldn't be installed in a properly built box thats tuned for the woofer?? I'm done posting on this topic but I will continue to read it...

[Tirefryr 1,742]

 

 

WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU the BTL N3 IS THE "KING OF SPL" LOUDEST SUB ON THE MARKET?

 

 

 yes i was yelling,

 

 mark this negitive like you did all the others,.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...

Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters.   That's been proven.  Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver.  They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application.  There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself.  Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? 

 

Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race.

Its a lot easier to win a race with a race car then it is with a horse and buggy.... I never mentioned enclosures...why would you assume that these high end subwoofers im discussing wouldn't be installed in a properly built box thats tuned for the woofer?? I'm done posting on this topic but I will continue to read it...

  You can't NOT mention an enclosure.  You also have to remember each application is different, each environment is different.  Herein lie the issues. 

 

Surely I could concoct a race where the horse and buggy have an advantage over the "race car." 

 

Again, you are not grasping what we're trying to teach.  Don't get mad and run away because you were wrong.  Read, understand, and learn.  Just be careful as there is a lot of misinformation on the web, including within this thread.  You'll be happier, smarter, and perhaps can then entrust your knowledge to others who will one day find themselves in your current shoes. 

[Impious 1,476]

I'm done posting on this topic

 

Thank god.

 

Your actual understanding of everything you have posted about in this topic is close to zero.  This is by far one of the most misinformation filled threads on this forum.  If one wanted to go back and correct all of the misinformation you would basically just need to rewrite the entire thread.  And I don't have the time for that. 

 

Instead let's for now warn anyone reading this thread to simply forget they ever read it.  I'm tempted to simply close it.

[Impious 1,476]

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

Myth Busted

 

Same enclosure, same power.  Axis clearly doesn't dig lower.  Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible.

 

 

Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong.  Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE.

[KyleBrown 121]

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

Myth Busted

 

Same enclosure, same power.  Axis clearly doesn't dig lower.  Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible.

 

 

Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong.  Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE.

 

 

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... 

 

WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail. 

Edited March 9, 2013 by armykyle1

[KyleBrown 121]

 

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

This is true.

If you smoke crack.  So many holes in this, I don'y even know where to start filling in.  Here's the problem with the internet.

 

 

Please inform the ignorant grand wizard. 

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Here we go again.  IT's funny as you made the blanket statement about the Axis.  Now you've been proven wrong and want to spin stuff.  Nobody said enlosure dictates everything,  IT is by far the largest contribution to the performance of the driver aside from the driver itself.  IT's also funny as you state,  "I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people,"  yet you misinform them with your OPINION, and you even state it as your OPINION.  It can be measured as fact and not opinion.

 

You're wrong, you made a mistake, worded what your meant to say incorrectly, or just had a brain fart.  We all know the enclosure does not dictate everything, but you OPINION that you can change it will no ill effects is just wrong. 

[KyleBrown 121]

Here we go again.  IT's funny as you made the blanket statement about the Axis.  Now you've been proven wrong and want to spin stuff.  Nobody said enlosure dictates everything,  IT is by far the largest contribution to the performance of the driver aside from the driver itself.  IT's also funny as you state,  "I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people,"  yet you misinform them with your OPINION, and you even state it as your OPINION.  It can be measured as fact and not opinion.

 

You're wrong, you made a mistake, worded what your meant to say incorrectly, or just had a brain fart.  We all know the enclosure does not dictate everything, but you OPINION that you can change it will no ill effects is just wrong. 

 

 

I'm not spinning anything, nor did I say  an improper enclosure will have no ill effects. I didn't say you can put a 12" xcon in 7 cubes and throw 17,000 watts on it. I said an enclosure does not dictate everything. I know you can build an enclosure to play lower and maintain proper cone control while throwing more power at it. I just get sick of statements like "OMG this sub hammers the lows" My main point is, just because you're playing low, doesn't mean it's being done right. 

[patented17 21]

[Sencheezy 689]

I don't know what to say. Anything else would be beating a dead horse. OP, please, for heavens sake, don't judge a driver soley by its t/s. Those t/s are again, only at 1 watt, obviously, do you not understand how many things are effected in real world, past 1 watt? For starters, just about every single soft part changes its property values after 1 watt. And thats just the driver itself, not to include the environmental influences. I would most adhere to the members who have been here for a while, who are actually trying to help. I would simply advise to just take in what some of us are trying to say. It may be difficult to seperate the bad information from the good. But continue to stick around, and further your own research to come to your own conclusion. But where you previously stand, as of now, if BAD information. Also, you've yet to list any details about what kind of environment these drivers would be going in, what kind of power, vehicle, intentions, nothing at all. We can't help you properly without any of this information.

[Impious 1,476]

 

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. 

 

 

Absolutely  one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. 

 

Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension. 

Myth Busted

 

Same enclosure, same power.  Axis clearly doesn't dig lower.  Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible.

 

 

Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong.  Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE.

 

 

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... 

 

WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail. 

The system response of a loudspeaker in a given enclosure has been verified by over half a century of research.  Certainly peak output is going to be affected by things such as power compression which can't be compensated for in an enclosure modeling software, but the shape of the response between predicted and real world (anechoic, not in-vehicle) is going to be consistent so long as the T/S are accurate and the proper conditions are maintained between model and measurement.  Which is a long way of saying you were wrong in your Xcon vs Axis comment, and no amount of exclamation point use or sarcasm is going to change that.  Also wrong in your comment that the "enclosure dictating everything is a myth", as there is a hell of a lot that the enclosure does dictate.  Look at the mathematical models of any system response and you'll see just how much affect the enclosure has.

 

If you would like to disprove Thiele-Small and rewrite the complete mathematical description of loudspeaker performance, then by all means go ahead and submit your paper to societies like the AES for peer review.

[OuTLaWeD 110]

wow there's way too much information to go back on here like IMP said there is no way you can correct it all. i would take Sens suggestion and stick around for a while, maybe youll learn something.