Subwoofer Break-in

[mlcantin 32]

Woofer break in is as much of a myth as running Rcas separate from other wires

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Woofer break in is as much of a myth as running Rcas separate from other wires

Run a highs amp with power and RCA on the same side on a vehicle with a distributor and see what it'll get you.

[shizzzon 461]

It depends on what you mean by sub break-in.

 

Breaking in a sub does change a sub so what is your definition of breakin is a myth?

[Impious 1,476]

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

[mlcantin 32]

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

. Thanks

[Trent Hari 1]

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Sorry - no measurements yet

I can tell you my Alpine Type- R and Type -S sounded very different (to me) after a week or so than when they were first put in -

even when i took a used Type-S out and put a new one in, I could tell. when i first put them in, it seemed like it couldn't hit the low notes, after awhile, the lows definitely became more prominent (to me)* 

 

 

*Right before they blew lmfao

Edited May 19, 2013 by Trent Hari

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

I can tell you it's all in your head. I have roughly 30 different Klippel results from driver before and after being broken in.

None of them show any differences that would be audible.

However I do not have any that were on the verge of bring blown.

[Impious 1,476]

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Sorry - no measurements yet

I can tell you my Alpine Type- R and Type -S sounded very different (to me) after a week or so than when they were first put in -

even when i took a used Type-S out and put a new one in, I could tell. when i first put them in, it seemed like it couldn't hit the low notes, after awhile, the lows definitely became more prominent (to me)* 

 

 

*Right before they blew lmfao

Measurements are really the only thing that would support the claim that there was a significant audible change pre- and post break in.  Subjective experience does not.  As Q pointed out, you might have experienced a change, but the change was in your perception and not in the driver (at least not audibly).

[Trent Hari 1]

 

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Sorry - no measurements yet

I can tell you my Alpine Type- R and Type -S sounded very different (to me) after a week or so than when they were first put in -

even when i took a used Type-S out and put a new one in, I could tell. when i first put them in, it seemed like it couldn't hit the low notes, after awhile, the lows definitely became more prominent (to me)* 

 

 

*Right before they blew lmfao

Measurements are really the only thing that would support the claim that there was a significant audible change pre- and post break in.  Subjective experience does not.  As Q pointed out, you might have experienced a change, but the change was in your perception and not in the driver (at least not audibly).

 

Understood. I just had to say it.

I'm wondering what T/S parameters are.  

Also what are  , Cms, Fs,  and Q?

[DanP 19]

 

 

The T/S of a subwoofer (or any driver) changes as the suspension loosens (i.e. becomes "broke in"). But since the relevant parameters (Cms, Fs, Q, etc) change proportionally, the response is changed slightly but typically by an inaudible amount. So the actual change in performance is virtually zero.

 

It's not a myth that the suspension loosens, changing the T/S parameters. It is a myth that some arbitrary "break-in period" needs to be ascribed where the driver is used at an arbitrarily lower power level for an arbitrary period of time. It's also a myth this change is dramatic since, as I pointed out above, the change in response is often not audible. I've obviously not seen measurements of every driver on the market, but I've yet to see measurements of a driver that results in an audible change in response. If somebody has any, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Sorry - no measurements yet

I can tell you my Alpine Type- R and Type -S sounded very different (to me) after a week or so than when they were first put in -

even when i took a used Type-S out and put a new one in, I could tell. when i first put them in, it seemed like it couldn't hit the low notes, after awhile, the lows definitely became more prominent (to me)* 

 

 

*Right before they blew lmfao

Measurements are really the only thing that would support the claim that there was a significant audible change pre- and post break in.  Subjective experience does not.  As Q pointed out, you might have experienced a change, but the change was in your perception and not in the driver (at least not audibly).

 

Understood. I just had to say it.

I'm wondering what T/S parameters are.  

Also what are  , Cms, Fs,  and Q?

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/index.php/blog/item/ts-parameters-explained.html

 

Explains it all.

[Impious 1,476]

Understood. I just had to say it.
I'm wondering what T/S parameters are.
Also what are , Cms, Fs, and Q?

Thiele Small parameters describe the low frequency behavior of a loudspeaker.

Cms is the compliance of the suspension of the loudspeaker. Compliance is the inverse of stiffness. So Cms tells you how compliant the suspension of the speaker is....or, by extension, how stiff the suspension is (a higher compliance means lower stiffness, lower compliance means higher stiffness). When a subwoofer "breaks in", the only physical parameter that changes is the compliance of the suspension (Cms). Cms increases (the suspension becomes more compliant) because the suspensions loosens up and becomes softer and less stiff.

Since Cms changes, it changes most of the other relevant T/S parameters that predict how a loudspeaker behaves in the low frequency realm. Fs is the resonant frequency of the driver. This is your basic mass on a spring stuff. The mass of the moving parts (cone, coil and former, & suspension) and the "spring" is the suspension, and at some frequency these parts will naturally resonant just the same as any other mass on a spring. That's Fs. And since the compliance of the spring changes, the resonant frequency changes. Fs will go down because there's slightly less "spring" with the same amount of mass, so it resonates at a lower frequency.

Q was short hand for Qms, Qes and Qts. Q stands for Quality factor. Basically if a system is resonating, Q describes the amount of "loss" in the system or the amount of damping the system is providing....it tells you how long that system will resonate for. A higher Q means there is less loss (and less damping) so the system will be more resonant and will take longer to stop oscillating. Back to our mass on a spring, Q factor will determine how long it takes for the system to stop oscillating. Qms describes the damping provided by the suspension (surround and spider). Qes describes the damping provided by the motor. And Qts is the combined damping of the Qms and Qes, or the total damping of the driver. Generally speaking the motor provides the most control over the driver at and above resonance, so Qts is always much close to Qes than it is to Qms.

There is also Vas, which is more or less a different expression of the compliance of the loudspeaker. It's expressed in terms of air volume, liters or cubic feet. A larger Vas for a given cone diameter means a more compliant (less stiff) suspension. Vas has a lot to do with enclosure volume. Generally speaking, a larger Vas means a larger enclosure volume is needed for a given alignment.

Fs, Qts and Vas are the main parameters the describe what the shape of the response curve of a speaker will look like in a given enclosure. Now, Cms is really the only physical parameter that changes when a speaker breaks in. But since Cms changes, Fs and Vas will both change (Fs goes down, Vas goes up). And since Fs changes, Qes and Qms will both change (they go down since Fs goes down) which therefore changes Qts (goes down as well since both Qes and Qms go down). Looking at the math helps understand that part of it. But, more importantly, because Cms is the only physical parameter that changes that means Fs, Vas and Qts will all change in proportion to each other leaving their relative ratios pretty much the same. Which means the shape of the response in a given enclosure remains pretty much the same. There are small changes to the response, but they are are well below the threshold of audibility...less than 1db. It might, *MIGHT* matter to a guy who does SPL where .1db can be the difference between 1st and 2nd place. But audibly....no difference.

[Trent Hari 1]

Two thumbs up! that was very interesting and informative reading

A little complex, but understandable - Thanks

 

BTW i didn't know that running rcas separate from power was a myth. is it really not true? i thought power wire made "noise"  - the install shop ran my rcas separate.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Trent Hari

[Impious 1,476]

I've always had them ran directly next to each other and never had any issues as a result.

 

More than likely when people are having issues with induced noise that moving the RCA's helped, they were running the wires next to something else "noisy" in the vehicle and the power wire wasn't the actual problem.

 

Richard Clark used to offer money to anyone that could prove they induced noise into their RCA with a power wire.

[cloud77 28]

Your amp is supplying its rated power (sometimes) at all times, with proper voltage.  the gain is just a volume knob.  So don't think that is you're @ 3/4 gain you're putting 750, and so on.  Don't just throw your gain all the way up and say "Bam, 1000 watts"

[Trent Hari 1]

Your amp is supplying its rated power (sometimes) at all times, with proper voltage.  the gain is just a volume knob.  So don't think that is you're @ 3/4 gain you're putting 750, and so on.  Don't just throw your gain all the way up and say "Bam, 1000 watts"

yes, i understand. some music just has less bass than others so i tweak the headunit to make the music sound 'balanced' to my ears. however, when i really want to 'rock out' i turn it down. i have heard this sub for long enough that i can tell as soon as i'm getting close to distortion.  

 

 

I've always had them ran directly next to each other and never had any issues as a result.

 

More than likely when people are having issues with induced noise that moving the RCA's helped, they were running the wires next to something else "noisy" in the vehicle and the power wire wasn't the actual problem.

 

Richard Clark used to offer money to anyone that could prove they induced noise into their RCA with a power wire.

Can other Rca's cause 'noise'? i had pretty bad alternator noise on my old deck, until i removed an rca splitter the bridged the fronts and rears together than it went completely away. (i switched head units also)

 

by the way, i posted this in my sq thread but no one seems to be responding-  when i was driving today, i hear a very slight hiss (from the tweeters mainly)  during the quiet portions of the song, when i have the volume at near max. - (with an original Journey cd- 'on the song Faithfully') - what could be causing this? it is still there when i have the volume to max with the engine off, and when in 'aux' mode with nothing plugged in.

[Impious 1,476]

If you switched HU's then your comparison is invalid.  One of the HU's may have been more sensitive to the poor OEM ground location than the other, for example.

 

As to the 2nd question.....this has been a long thread & I don't remember, are the speakers driven by an amplifier?

[Trent Hari 1]

If you switched HU's then your comparison is invalid.  One of the HU's may have been more sensitive to the poor OEM ground location than the other, for example.

 

As to the 2nd question.....this has been a long thread & I don't remember, are the speakers driven by an amplifier?

Yes, the speakers are powered by an Alpine PDX-5, a Kenwood KDC 896, and the speakers are Alpine Type R components

(i faded all music to front speakers)

I'm not sure if you need  more information than that. if you need to know something more, just ask.

the amp is under the passenger seat

Edited May 22, 2013 by Trent Hari

[cloud77 28]

I didn't want to post this earlier but since I drank a few beers I guess I will.   Every vehicle is different.  Achieving a tolerable unwanted noise is a good thing.  You can try a bunch of things to reduce the noise all you want; Blah Blah.  When it comes down to it, equipment, equipment, equipment. No I didn't copy and paste.

[Trent Hari 1]

I didn't want to post this earlier but since I drank a few beers I guess I will.   Every vehicle is different.  Achieving a tolerable unwanted noise is a good thing.  You can try a bunch of things to reduce the noise all you want; Blah Blah.  When it comes down to it, equipment, equipment, equipment. No I didn't copy and paste.

Lol "jus one mor beer brah"  I have dang near the best amp and head unit that the companies that sell them make, I'm sure i can do better, I don't think i even ever heard a "professional sq system" before so i doubt im being terribly picky. -

 although i get more compliments from how loud and clear my speakers are , than how loud my sub is.   unacceptable (jk) 

 

Maybe you meant to say Install, Install, install?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Trent Hari

[cloud77 28]

This is why pursuance of "SQ" builds are more challenging than throwing a bunch of power at a woofer woaloah magic. 

[Trent Hari 1]

This is why pursuance of "SQ" builds are more challenging than throwing a bunch of power at a woofer woaloah magic. 

Well it seems to me i'm having more trouble "throwing the power at the woofer " than SQ.(Ironic)  

I actually blew a woofer, i'm sure a little noise can be resolved. We could move the noise issue to my http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/59329-kenwood-vs-pioneer-sq-and-ease-of-use-sq-setup/page-5 Thread. Otherwise, a few ideas here would be helpful also.

[cloud77 28]

let me read and catch up.

[cloud77 28]

I found the problem... You're running sundown woofers.  If Barack Obama issued a subs for scrubs program these would be the issuance.

[Trent Hari 1]

I found the problem... You're running sundown woofers.  If Barack Obama issued a subs for scrubs program these would be the issuance.

haha

oops that link didn't log you in under my name did it? 

 

I never blew a sundown, I blew two Alpine subs, a type S and type R,

 

My  SA-12 is actually holding up surprisingly well -

 

I thought the Sa series was considered exceptionally durable for its rated power.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Trent Hari

[cloud77 28]

you are still rolling with 2.5 in" VC on the sundown.  They rate at 600 rms; I've owned alpines Rs in a loud build with 2 Rockford 801S and come to realize the woofers are short lived and a pain in the rear to rebuild.  Buy a quality woofer to ensure that your install procedures are not faulty.