Playing around with some new toys... Training my ears?

[///M5 2,833]

IMO, if you add more power REALLY add more power.

[altoncustomtech 773]

We'll, I've already got the JBL on hand and getting it to mount up won't be any real trouble. Plus it is rated for 300wrms x 2 into 4 ohms so it could give the SLS's about 50% more than rated. I figured that's not too shabby of a place to start.

While I'm not really expecting this to be the final iteration of the build in this truck it should all be a plenty good place to start. Going fully active, the FR89's, the SLS's, the XCON & PR's and all the work that's gone into it and will be going into it seems light years ahead of just the sub and a set of $150 components.

[lithium 358]

i really need to clean up my amp install as well. two 2 channels mounted to the rear deck and 3 more under a false floor. might pick up a pair of ppi 900.4 to replace the four front stage amps. 450 x2 @ 4ohm would be great on the midbass. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by lithium

[///M5 2,833]

i really need to clean up my amp install as well. two 2 channels mounted to the rear deck and 3 more under a false floor. might pick up a pair of ppi 900.4 to replace the four front stage amps. 450 x2 @ 4ohm would be great on the midbass.

And they are SO SMALL.

[altoncustomtech 773]

I could see where going from stereo to two bridged KX250's would make a difference, and possibly even from the KX250's to the P900, but would I really gain anything going from the JBL at 300 x2 to say the P900 at 450 x 2.  We constantly tell people that more power is the least efficient way to get louder and we also tell them that they'll never hear any difference in a couple hundred watts.  Granted that's when we're generally talking in the 1500+ watt neighborhood, but my question still stands.  Would I really gain from that 150w difference, enough to be worth spending another $180 on an amp when the JBL is right here in hand?

[///M5 2,833]

I could see where going from stereo to two bridged KX250's would make a difference, and possibly even from the KX250's to the P900, but would I really gain anything going from the JBL at 300 x2 to say the P900 at 450 x 2.  We constantly tell people that more power is the least efficient way to get louder and we also tell them that they'll never hear any difference in a couple hundred watts.  Granted that's when we're generally talking in the 1500+ watt neighborhood, but my question still stands.  Would I really gain from that 150w difference, enough to be worth spending another $180 on an amp when the JBL is right here in hand?

The 450x2 vs the 125.2 will make a difference. 125.2 vs JBL as well.

Selling the JBL to buy the PPI is a wash. You would also gain some headroom and the capability for a bit more tapering on the eq while not exceeding the amplifiers capability. IMO, the most important place in a car to have power is on your midbass.

For the $ invested I'd be interested. The space saved as well. That being said if you already had the JBL installed and had to spend $ to change I probably wouldn't.

[altoncustomtech 773]

That's pretty much what I had figured and am glad to hear I was thinking along the right lines.  I knew either one over the 125.2 should make a difference, but I couldn't really see a big gain between the JBL and the PPI.  Of course if I didn't already own the JBL I would just go with the PPI but I do and although it's not installed yet it won't take very much at all to do so.  No wiring changes, no major rebuild just a quick bracket fab and a couple of RCA "Y" splitters to give each pair of channels on the amp the left and right signals accordingly and it will be ready to go.  Then as far as the full ranges, the Solid 2 should still be plenty for them at it's 75 x 2 rating.

[altoncustomtech 773]

The FR89EX's and the SLS's came in yesterday.  Damn the packaging is odd on those SLS's, lol.  The pictures online of the SLS's do them no justice at all, I couldn't believe just how attractive they are.  Very good looking drivers and the build quality on them seems top notch.  The FR89's are very impressive as well.  I would never have imagined I would see a 3" driver with such a substantial cast frame AND cooling vents (open frame) below the spider to boot.  

 

Preliminary finding on the fit of the 8's seems like I'll be able to put them in down there without hardly having to modify anything at all.  Just a little plastic trimming on the panel and building a new baffle for it to mount to which is good news from a difficulty to integrate standpoint.  It still seems as though my idea for building an enclosure into the door and using the current location of the tweeter for the port (if a ported alignment will work and fit) should all fit and look good together.  The toughest part now is going to be building pods onto the sail panels to mount the full ranges.  I would just put them up on the A pillars but due to the shape of the dash, it's height relative to the drivers location and the narrow width of the trunk/windshield as it is I don't think they would work as well there AND make it difficult to see in those directions while driving.

 

Fiberglass, well I've wanted to learn for awhile now.  Looks like it's going to be about like most other things I've learned to do over the years, just dive into it and hope for the best!

[altoncustomtech 773]

Well, yesterday I got a few free minutes at the end of the day and used them to go ahead and hook up the Solid 2 to the Fountek's and the 125.2 to the Bravox mids to give it a shot with everything doing the duty it was more or less designed for.  I set the DTA, crossovers and a little EQ adjustment and sat in for a listen for a little bit and that little bit turned into more than half an hour.  I tweaked a little here and there but I was so happy with it I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.  I'm heading in EXACTLY the direction I have been trying to find since I started to notice lackluster response in the components that was driving me nuts.  The Fountek's were just as detailed and smooth as before but sounded fuller, more alive with the Bravox mids pulling midbass duty.  The snap and punch wasn't quite as pronounced as one would like but they are only 6.5's plus I haven't EQ'd anything worth a damn yet.  Then on top of all that the sub was blending perfectly with the Bravox's AND sounded like it was coming from up under the dash, the midbass sounded like it was coming from the Fountek's and my mind was officially blown.  The only time I've heard music sound like that was when I was checking out vehicles in an SQ comp years ago.  I absolutely cannot wait to get the SLS's and the FR89's mounted permanently in the truck so I can begin to really tune and enjoy the system!!

[jcarter1885 995]

Nice, glad your getting the results your wanted. I bet that's a wonderful feeling.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Thank you.  It is a great feeling to finally know I'm heading in the right direction for sure.  Having never played with 3" full ranges in a car audio setup with the dedicated midbass and having enough (just enough) DSP power to actually use and tune it was a little off putting and worrisome.  Before I ever began on it I thought it would be too much work to even try it and see if it would work for me.  I've been glad to find it wasn't all that bad and now that everything is ran and the infrastructure to support it is done the installation should be the only hurdle left.

[audio-neon 34]

This excites me. Keep up the work Alton so that I can use your experimentation to guide mine in the future.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Thanks, that was kind of the purpose behind the thread.  I wanted to share my thoughts as I went through this experience, get help when and where I needed it and basically have something for anyone else who's looking into doing something similar to be able to reference.  Of course everybody's tastes are different, vehicles and equipment change the outcome but I don't think it's bad reference just to start getting an idea on what a person could do and where to go with it.  

 

I'm a bit past the point of experimentation now though, at least as far as the full ranges and the continuation of the setup goes.  I'm going to begin working on the permanent installation of the FR89's and the SLS's asap and then I'll go with that for a little while and if I feel the need to go further it will probably just be to go into building an enclosure in the door for the midbass.  We'll see eventually but right now I just can't imagine it being a whole lot better than it is at this point, it's simply unreal.

[lithium 358]

Thanks, that was kind of the purpose behind the thread.  I wanted to share my thoughts as I went through this experience, get help when and where I needed it and basically have something for anyone else who's looking into doing something similar to be able to reference.  Of course everybody's tastes are different, vehicles and equipment change the outcome but I don't think it's bad reference just to start getting an idea on what a person could do and where to go with it.  

 

I'm a bit past the point of experimentation now though, at least as far as the full ranges and the continuation of the setup goes.  I'm going to begin working on the permanent installation of the FR89's and the SLS's asap and then I'll go with that for a little while and if I feel the need to go further it will probably just be to go into building an enclosure in the door for the midbass.  We'll see eventually but right now I just can't imagine it being a whole lot better than it is at this point, it's simply unreal.

just wait till you get the sls 8s in there. 

[altoncustomtech 773]

These questions are just some I'm bouncing off the wall, more or less because I'm trying to learn more and more about the T/S that make or break a driver for use in a given application.

 

I have been looking around, reading, trying to learn more about driver parameters, what they mean, and how they correlate to using them in the real world.  I'm still learning and have a long way to go.  I came across a driver that is labeled a midrange however it has a Fs of 95hz and from everything else I'm reading in the T/S and see on the FR plot it seems to me to be more of a full range driver.  What I stumbled across is the ETON Symphony 3" Midrange and aside from the crazy price for the pair I'm trying to understand how it's a midrange and not a full range.

 

Sean, you also mentioned something about the "distortion profile" on the FaitalPro 3FE25 as well.  An explanation of what that is and how you find/figure out what that is for the raw drivers a person looks at for running active like this would be fantastic.  I'm assuming it's a graph, plot or some other information that's probably not available for every driver out there also.

 

On drivers that a person would choose for use as a dedicated midbass, more specifically in the type of application that Jared and I are finding ourselves in, what are the more important things to be looking for.  I understand the Peerless SLS's are a great driver and should serve me pretty well but I'm always looking for the answer to "What can I get or do to make it better?"  I'm still thinking it would be worthwhile to go ahead and get do the enclosures in the front doors even for the SLS's.  Between issues with rattles I know would pop up and making sure I can get the most out of the drivers that I can and it's hard to see how I could do that running them IB vs. an enclosure either sealed or ported though my intentions are for it to be ported.

[///M5 2,833]

Didn't see any plots on the Eton. Considering it's cone material it probably has a nasty break up mode which is difficult to tame and so it is restricted to the lower end of the spectra. Peak at the plot for the Seas W18 and you can see why you normally cross it to play below 1200Hz. You will also notice that even though you can measure distortion it isn't always listed. In Zaph's test he does though.

[lithium 358]

my sls 8s beat the fuck out of my doors. i'm tempted to go with an enclosure next time around but the fiberglass work will be a giant pain. i'm not sure how you go about designing the enclosures for a midbass but i would think you gain some output over IB. and if you can isolate the enclosure from the door you should be better off in terms of rattles. 

 

i'm actually buying a new car next month so i'll be reinstalling as well. I think i'll try IB again but use some more aggressive treatments like fiberglassing the back of the door card and using a couple pounds of duct seal around the baffle (and the usual mlv, ccf, cdl, butyl rope treatment). 

[///M5 2,833]

Midbass enclosure design isn't terribly different from sub box design. And yes you'll gain output, just a pain in the ass.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Okay, I was remembering how the door was built/looked on the inside much differently than it is, lol.  I've got a damned window guide rail right behind the center of where the drivers mount so now I've got to go back to the drawing board on what I'm going to do as far as mounting 8's is concerned let alone fitting any sort of enclosure.

 

 

For a smaller diameter magnet that would or could help it fit in next to the window guide would the Tang Band W8-1363SB 8" sub be a worthy choice?  For what it's worth I think the SLS will be okay IB but my ideas have definitely been thwarted.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Here's a link to the specs for that TB 8.

 

 

 

Tang Band W8-1363SB

[///M5 2,833]

Haven't used that driver and for me to believe a TB spec I'd need to buy it and measure it. If you already have the SLS I'd run them. They work FINE IB, just be sure to treat your doors as they will beat the piss out of them.

[altoncustomtech 773]

That's going to be my only easy option at this point, and I'm not sure how EASY that's going to be with that damned window guide 2" behind the sheet metal centered directly behind where everything lines up with the factory mounting location.  

 

Any farther rearward and the window itself is a problem, almost no room to move it forward.  It appears as though anything I want to do is going to require a custom fiberglass build.  As it is I'm fairly certain I would have to angle the SLS to get it in there.

[///M5 2,833]

Only playing to 300ish Hz so angle away