Playing around with some new toys... Training my ears?

[altoncustomtech 773]

In the interest in trying to do as Sean (///M5) had told me I needed to do in my ON/OFF Axis thread I've been playing around with everything.  I've been going through crossover and EQ settings on the components in the van, I've spent time playing with the components in the Jimmy (I can't drive it, may as well work on the audio, right?), and I've also been slowly buying up some other stuff to play with.  I bought the Dayton RS180-4 mids from Ricksi, I bought a pair of Aura NS3 3", a pair of Fountek FE85 3", and a pair of FaitalPRO 3FE25 3" full rangers all for the sake of trying to train my ear and learn what problems and anomalies can and are occurring in the hunt to get the sound I'm looking for.

 

I have to say that aside from an awful lack of midbass the components in the van are pretty much what I'm looking for.  Even running passive they don't have any issues with breakup, overbearing on any particular frequency and aside from the loudness setting turned on on the HU the EQ is dead flat.  They're actually fairly impressive speakers for the money I paid and the fact they've lasted as long as they have taking the beating they have I've more than gotten my money's worth out of them.  Even with the loudness off the only real problem I hear is the midrange being a little more in my face than I prefer to hear, of course that makes sense being that the loudness setting boosts a little on the bass and treble ends of the spectrum thus quieting the midrange down some.  I can't find any real benefit doing anything else with the EQ besides that.  I've had to come to grips with the fact that the less than stellar job I did installing the baffles for the components is the most likely culprit for their lack of midbass.  There's not enough breathing room around the large motor's on them to allow them to work right.  Without doing some careful work I'll have the same problem with the woofers in the Bravox CS603CF's when/if I ever get around to putting them in.  Aside from that I think the limited number of people who've heard the van would agree the highs are as clear and even sounding as anyone could ask for with fairly good stage and imaging.  All that amounts to is that I got really lucky with it and that luck didn't follow me into the Jimmy.

 

Well, that's enough of that mess.  The point of the thread is to share my opinions on as I make my journey through testing and playing with all this stuff.  Hopefully those thoughts and opinions and discussion on the topic can help others as well.  I'm going to start by setting up the current components in the Jimmy in an active setup.  I'm going to get the Solid 2 installed and wired up to the tweeters and set the crossovers on the Clarion accordingly to see what kind of difference that makes with the set.  A little preliminary testing (mids hooked up without passives) shows that it may be a promising move.  Once all possible scenarios with that set have been exhausted I'll be testing with every combination of speakers and settings.  Another thing Sean said was to never buy a set of speakers and expect it to be the last ones a person buys.  I'm slowly getting an arsenal of drivers amassed so as to figure out what combination of what configuration I like best and I figure the more options I have, well the longer it will take (this is fun stuff!!) and the more I can learn from and grow from the experience.

 

Here's the full rangers.  I already had in my possession some Tang Band 3" full range speakers from a Logitech Z-560 (580, 680, something like that, the 400+ watt 4.1 set) computer speaker set that blew the amp out many years ago.   I'm using the enclosures from them for all four sets to do the testing with so I don't have to build any.  The size and configuration isn't perfect for all of them but at least it lets me test them in an enclosure of some kind.  I have to say from initial testing the Faital's are leading the pack.  They're super smooth and seem to extend way farther up in frequency than the others though the low end sounds kinda hollow.  I assume that's from the super flat impedance curve that's published for them.  Second is the Fountek's as they seem to have the most realistic sound, but they don't sparkle on the high end much and the low end is pretty hollow sounding as well.  Third in line is the Aura's with a surprisingly rich lower end but they have a very tame sounding midrange and high end.  They don't sound bad, but they're not quite out there and realistic as the other two.  I still have to get the solder off the terminals on the TB's before I can make any sort of comparison with the others.  I listened to them for years and thought they were great but who knows what kinds of built in EQing, crossovers, etc. Logitech had built into the amp for them and it's been years since I've heard them so I don't think it's even remotely possible to comment on them from memory and in that context.

 

Here's a couple of pics just for fun.  The Fountek's in the enclosures with the Aura's and Faital's sitting next to them.  I just had them hooked up to a cheap little Lepai amp that I had lying around connected to my iPhone.  It's not great, but it works.  I plugged the ports on those little enclosure's to attempt to make the playing field just a tad more level.  I'll get a little more industrious about it when I can get a bit more serious about the testing.  I did have them the same height, angles, etc. on axis while testing as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cobra93 47]

I'm running the fountek fr88 in my truck now, also tried the tangband w3 1364sa but seemed a little harsh to me in comparision.

I read about the faital pro, but haven't heard the.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on them.

[altoncustomtech 773]

I'm starting cheap and moving up.  The FE85 was almost 1/3 the price of the FR88EX so that's why I went that route.  I've read a lot about the FR88 and if it works out I'll probably get around to playing with a set eventually due to the outstanding reviews it's gotten.

 

The only thing I knew about the Faital's going into it was that Sean seems to think a lot of the brand and they were about the same price as the FE85's.  I studied the specs, response and impedance curves on it before purchasing it and it looked to me like a great candidate.  Initial listening it seems pretty damn nice, I'll post more about it as I play with it more.

[lithium 358]

i've played around with the 88ex and a set of peerless 3 inchers. the 88 are installed in my brothers sentra. I dont remember too much about the 88s besides that they have a solid top end and I'd favor them over the peerless slightly. i've stepped up to a 3 way in my own car.

 

I've also used the hivi 3" in a small computer setup following zaphaudio's build. They sound great for the price but Im not sure if they would hold up in a car audio environment. the large shielded motor would make it difficult to install as well. 

 

if you want to play around with enclosure volume, these speakers tend to fit in 3" pvc. 

 

good luck with your testing!

[ricksi30 923]

Tuned in for sure man! Pm'd you about the Dayton's just get back to me when you get a chance.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I've been going through crossover and EQ settings on the components in the van,

 

I have to say that aside from an awful lack of midbass the components in the van are pretty much what I'm looking for.  Even running passive they don't have any issues with breakup, overbearing on any particular frequency and aside from the loudness setting turned on on the HU the EQ is dead flat.  They're actually fairly impressive speakers for the money I paid and the fact they've lasted as long as they have taking the beating they have I've more than gotten my money's worth out of them.  Even with the loudness off the only real problem I hear is the midrange being a little more in my face than I prefer to hear, of course that makes sense being that the loudness setting boosts a little on the bass and treble ends of the spectrum thus quieting the midrange down some.  I can't find any real benefit doing anything else with the EQ besides that.  I've had to come to grips with the fact that the less than stellar job I did installing the baffles for the components is the most likely culprit for their lack of midbass.  There's not enough breathing room around the large motor's on them to allow them to work right.  Without doing some careful work I'll have the same problem with the woofers in the Bravox CS603CF's when/if I ever get around to putting them in.  Aside from that I think the limited number of people who've heard the van would agree the highs are as clear and even sounding as anyone could ask for with fairly good stage and imaging.  All that amounts to is that I got really lucky with it and that luck didn't follow me into the Jimmy.

Just went through your entire Van's build log (Nice Ride BTW) and I did not see exactly how you have your front stage set up ... I see in the vids that your dash in nice and flat, but couldn't tell how you have everything installed ...

I was just wondering if you could give me an idea on what you have going on there ...

I seen a van similar at USACI Finals one year running advanced SQ classes and thought I could go back though my pics and see if I could figure out how he had it set up ... I'm almost positive everything was countersank into the dash with agressive angles and vented through the fender wells ... and I'm thinking his midbass drivers were in the Kicks vented through the fender wells too ... I would like to go back and check, but I do remember that it sounded AMAZING !!!

Edited October 30, 2013 by Cablguy184

[altoncustomtech 773]

Tuned in for sure man! Pm'd you about the Dayton's just get back to me when you get a chance.

 

Yep, I saw the PM and replied.

 

 

I've been going through crossover and EQ settings on the components in the van,

 

I have to say that aside from an awful lack of midbass the components in the van are pretty much what I'm looking for.  Even running passive they don't have any issues with breakup, overbearing on any particular frequency and aside from the loudness setting turned on on the HU the EQ is dead flat.  They're actually fairly impressive speakers for the money I paid and the fact they've lasted as long as they have taking the beating they have I've more than gotten my money's worth out of them.  Even with the loudness off the only real problem I hear is the midrange being a little more in my face than I prefer to hear, of course that makes sense being that the loudness setting boosts a little on the bass and treble ends of the spectrum thus quieting the midrange down some.  I can't find any real benefit doing anything else with the EQ besides that.  I've had to come to grips with the fact that the less than stellar job I did installing the baffles for the components is the most likely culprit for their lack of midbass.  There's not enough breathing room around the large motor's on them to allow them to work right.  Without doing some careful work I'll have the same problem with the woofers in the Bravox CS603CF's when/if I ever get around to putting them in.  Aside from that I think the limited number of people who've heard the van would agree the highs are as clear and even sounding as anyone could ask for with fairly good stage and imaging.  All that amounts to is that I got really lucky with it and that luck didn't follow me into the Jimmy.

Just went through your entire Van's build log (Nice Ride BTW) and I did not see exactly how you have your front stage set up ... I see in the vids that your dash in nice and flat, but couldn't tell how you have everything installed ...

I was just wondering if you could give me an idea on what you have going on there ...

I seen a van similar at USACI Finals one year running advanced SQ classes and thought I could go back though my pics and see if I could figure out how he had it set up ... I'm almost positive everything was countersank into the dash with agressive angles and vented through the fender wells ... and I'm thinking his midbass drivers were in the Kicks vented through the fender wells too ... I would like to go back and check, but I do remember that it sounded AMAZING !!!

 

There's no pictures of it because I built the baffles and installed all that before I had joined any forum and before realizing anyone would really be interested in seeing pictures of any of the builds I've done.  It's really basic though with the passive crossover's each mounted under the driver/passenger seats.  The window track, window motor mount, and factory speaker baffle are all one big plastic frame that bolts to the door in these vans.  I took a grinder and eliminated the factory baffle from the frame then built a baffle that covered the frame where the factory baffle used to be.  I then put CLD (more than necessary) on the outer door skin along with a CCF egg crate type foam behind the speakers.  Then because the plastic frames were impossible to cover with CLD or anything else I picked up some sheet metal that's a little thinner than the door itself and skinned it over the plastic frame.  I applied CLD and CCF to that and then mounted the baffle to the door and installed the mids.  I mounted the tweeters up on the dash as far forward as I physically could.  Everything is in phase and like I said before, I got really lucky it all sounds as good as it does.

 

The description of that van seems as though it should definitely sound good.  That guy definitely has skills that I sure don't possess.  On top of that, when I did the original build in the van we hadn't had it that long and my wife didn't want it to be heavily modified so I did as much as I could to make her happy and make it still retain the stock look.  Of course that went out the window as the build's progressed but that's how it started out.

 

I'll hunt through all of my pics and see if I can find ANYTHING of the doors behind the door panels.  I just realized you said videos too, LOL.  I can't believe those shitty ass videos are still up!

[Randal Johnson 544]

 

There's no pictures of it because I built the baffles and installed all that before I had joined any forum and before realizing anyone would really be interested in seeing pictures of any of the builds I've done.  It's really basic though with the passive crossover's each mounted under the driver/passenger seats.  The window track, window motor mount, and factory speaker baffle are all one big plastic frame that bolts to the door in these vans.  I took a grinder and eliminated the factory baffle from the frame then built a baffle that covered the frame where the factory baffle used to be.  I then put CLD (more than necessary) on the outer door skin along with a CCF egg crate type foam behind the speakers.  Then because the plastic frames were impossible to cover with CLD or anything else I picked up some sheet metal that's a little thinner than the door itself and skinned it over the plastic frame.  I applied CLD and CCF to that and then mounted the baffle to the door and installed the mids.  I mounted the tweeters up on the dash as far forward as I physically could.  Everything is in phase and like I said before, I got really lucky it all sounds as good as it does.

Damn ... what a detailed description !!! Thank you Sir !!!

How is your time alignment ??? Can you actually tell where your stage and image is ?? ... or can you actually tell where your drivers are located ???

... and most important, When listening to well recorded music ... Can you actually tell where your Sub stage is located ???

Reason I ask this is because once I got my substage time aligned to "match up" with my midbass drivers ... my midbass got tremendously strong, more dynamic, and ALOT easier to tune ... It's almost like there is a seemless transition between the midbass and the sub bass ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

The description of that van seems as though it should definitely sound good.  That guy definitely has skills that I sure don't possess.  On top of that, when I did the original build in the van we hadn't had it that long and my wife didn't want it to be heavily modified so I did as much as I could to make her happy and make it still retain the stock look.  Of course that went out the window as the build's progressed but that's how it started out.

From what I remember, they took out the section with the defroster ducts on the dash and installed what looked like waveguides or horns (Don't know for sure, sorry), midbass in the kick pannels, and a sub driver somewhere in the dash ...

The only thing that I didn't like about it was that driver / passenger seating position and Sound Quality listening position was TOTALLY different ... With him being in advanced class, they extended the rails of the seat's track to where the seats would literally touch the back seats ... Then leaned them back to where it seemed like you was sitting in a recliner ... I'm sure all of this could have been avoided with different time alignment and better tune ...

[altoncustomtech 773]

Yeah, I don't even see how they would allow that for competition, then again I know nothing of the rules.  How they did the setup sounds neat but had to have been way more trouble than it was really worth.  

 

 

The van does really damn good, but the components in the Jimmy leave a lot to be desired.  They have incredibly strong midbass for 6.5's.  They're powered by a Sundown 125.2 and give enough midbass to kick your pant leg around.  I have them crossed fairly low (50hz iirc) but I also have the EQ turned down at 40hz and 125hz just to keep the sound halfway even or else the midbass would outrun everything else.  The midrange is where they have the most trouble though and it seems to be most of the range too.  It's the worst in the 2.5k neighborhood (break-up node, feels like it could rip your ears off) but the entire midrange sounds as though they're playing into a great big cardboard box.  It's dull, exaggerated and lifeless, clear as a bell with no distortion at all but completely BLEH.  The tweeters aren't bad at all, or don't seem to be, but they kinda wash out in all that's wrong with the midrange.  I have begun to wonder if some of the components of the passive aren't actually going bad or something like that in the signal chain is going wrong because it's far worse now than it was when I first installed the components and amps.  Part of my testing is to get a little listening time on these 3 inchers to get familiar with how they sound on a different amplified source then throw them in the Jimmy and see if the dull and bloated midrange problems still exist.  If they do then I have a signal issue somewhere in the HU or amp, if not then I know there's definitely something going on with the components and my goal then is to discover if it's possibly in the passive crossovers or if it's an actual driver issue.  Aside from that, giving their less than ideal locations and aiming the stage and imaging aren't bad at all but I know it can be considerably better.

 

I'm really looking forward to playing with the full ranges though to see just how good my stage and imaging could possibly get with something like them up high and on axis.  Also I've got an idea on how to build some enclosures to fit into the doors that will take up the whole cavity at the front of the door in front of the window track.  It will definitely require some sheet metal removal but I think if I do it right the results will be well worth the trouble of all the modifications.  The thought of having a pair of 8" dedicated midbasses in ported enclosures tuned to about 65hz just sounds like lots of fun and smiles. 

[SacredTanakh 67]

Interesting read, I have two of the Dayton nd105-4s. Very interesting woofer to play with, I'm not sure how much they differ from the original aura sound version though. I thought the upper range on them sounded a little dull, but the bass and mid bass response are quite nice down to 40hz. I always wanted try 4-6 in each door crossed over with a tweet.

[///M5 2,833]

Alton i'd spend more time with settings on one set of drivers instead of swapping drivers so fast. It takes weeks to nail things down not hours. Glad you are listening

[altoncustomtech 773]

There's no pictures of it because I built the baffles and installed all that before I had joined any forum and before realizing anyone would really be interested in seeing pictures of any of the builds I've done.  It's really basic though with the passive crossover's each mounted under the driver/passenger seats.  The window track, window motor mount, and factory speaker baffle are all one big plastic frame that bolts to the door in these vans.  I took a grinder and eliminated the factory baffle from the frame then built a baffle that covered the frame where the factory baffle used to be.  I then put CLD (more than necessary) on the outer door skin along with a CCF egg crate type foam behind the speakers.  Then because the plastic frames were impossible to cover with CLD or anything else I picked up some sheet metal that's a little thinner than the door itself and skinned it over the plastic frame.  I applied CLD and CCF to that and then mounted the baffle to the door and installed the mids.  I mounted the tweeters up on the dash as far forward as I physically could.  Everything is in phase and like I said before, I got really lucky it all sounds as good as it does.

Damn ... what a detailed description !!! Thank you Sir !!!

How is your time alignment ??? Can you actually tell where your stage and image is ?? ... or can you actually tell where your drivers are located ???

... and most important, When listening to well recorded music ... Can you actually tell where your Sub stage is located ???

Reason I ask this is because once I got my substage time aligned to "match up" with my midbass drivers ... my midbass got tremendously strong, more dynamic, and ALOT easier to tune ... It's almost like there is a seemless transition between the midbass and the sub bass ...

 

Somehow I missed this post, lol.  The time alignment is pretty good I think since the stage and imaging are pretty good.  The stage is up high, above the dash, pretty much where it should be.  Imaging is fair but it does move around which I attribute completely to the installation and the fact the mids in in the factory locations near the floor aiming at each other and way off axis, especially compared to the tweeters.  So yes, you can tell where the drivers are, it's not a transparent representation but compared to how almost anything I've listened to sounds it's really damn good.  The subs are time aligned and sound just like they're right in the front of the van (when it's not loud enough that everything is rattling, all that sound deadening and the Q's still broke shit loose) and they help keep the midbass response decent but the upper end of the midbass still suffers and I still really think it's due to the mids being choked where they mount in the doors and baffles, it's just too damned tight for the to breathe right.

 

 

 

Alton i'd spend more time with settings on one set of drivers instead of swapping drivers so fast. It takes weeks to nail things down not hours. Glad you are listening

 

Oh I'm not swapping anything at any kind of fast.  The only thing I'm doing with all these drivers is getting an ear for the differences between them for now.  I am slowly working toward getting the second two channel amp in so I can run the current component set active first and see what that does to the blooming midrange and see if it gets any easier to dial in with the EQ.  The full ranges, extra mid basses, and all that is simply for playing around with the idea of different setups and what they could help or hurt in the future.  I already know I want more than the current component set can bring to the table as they sit and if they end up falling short after taking them active then I have some other things to try out.  This will be an ongoing effort to get it where I want it, I have accepted that, but I have little experience with an active setup (more like none of my own) and I've never had any experience using a full range and dedicated midbass either.  I figured there's no time like the present to start getting some familiarity not only with what I'm trying to work on and correct right now, but the kind of setup that I've been thinking about doing in the future.

 

The other problem is I can't spend a great deal of time tweaking and tuning the truck since I can't drive it, so I figured play with these little things gives me an opportunity to get some experience with them and continue to learn about this stuff.

[///M5 2,833]

Gotcha, my comment was only because you added a lot of variables on top of alot of variables...or so it sounded. Working out what changes what & where and teaching your ear is the most important thing.

I would also recommend that you absolutely IGNORE staging at the moment. There is always a compromise between FR & staging in any install and the staging cues are easy for anyone to hear, training your ear to listen to FR is much more difficult.

There is somewhat of a saying in music, if you can't sing it you can't play it. And that doesn't mean anything about words. I spent too many years running a sound board though, can whistle/hum nearly any 1/3 octave band on cue...the really high ones I can't actually voice, but they "sing" in my head. Collectively though between different instruments and voice I have an amalgamated > 35 years of private lessons. I will add that ear training is by far the most important part of playing anything.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Great topic, I will check it more tonight when I have time to really pay attention.  I have the Fountek 89's installed in car and love them.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Well, can anyone explain what's happening with the passive crossovers?  Let me explain.  After I started the other thread about the axis question it was suggested to me to test each individual driver without the passive crossover's connected.  I remember when I did that some of the issues I was having with the extreme, ear bleeding midrange went away.  I never got a chance to work on that anymore but I was playing with it again yesterday and found that was exactly what happened.  I left the tweeters on the passive's during my test and just moved the wires on the mids to the amp inputs terminals and viola, the harsh midrange at around 2-2.5k was much better.  Still a little strong but manageable and much easier to listen to.  

 

That brings me back around to the question, what could possibly have happened to the crossovers to cause an issue like that?  Running the mids full range with no crossover still had some breakup and issues, but as soon as I turned on the LPF to 2.5k it smoothed them right out.  Of course it sounded like ass again because there was no teble, but it showed me for sure the passive crossovers are causing an issue.  My only question is why.  I can kind of see, with a component set that's only rated for 80wrms and having about 50% more power on tap to run them where the heat might could cause an issue over time but it seems more likely it would cause something to fail right away instead of change something in the response.

 

I dunno, I'm just ranting at this point.  Also really aggravated with the truck, it's tight quarters, and trying to find a place to hide the Solid 2, lol.  I'm really wanting to test the set fully active and see what I can get from them with everything crossed over right. 

[///M5 2,833]

I am against generalizations in audio, but there is one that holds. Pretty much ALL passive comp set crossovers are crap.

Ok, that being said it sure sounds like in this case they were crappy enough to not include a LPF in the crossover itself. Would explain why when you add one it goes away.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Actually the response is better without mid's signal going through the passive at all.  It gets downright groovy with the active crossover turned on with a flat EQ, something I just couldn't do with them before.  That's why I was ranting about the passive's.  It's as if there's something in them that is changing the signal and making the response in that range stronger, probably by attenuating other frequencies, and causing the worst of the issue.  I could have run the mid without the passive at all and be happy with the response as it is now, they sound a little better than I remember them sounding when I first installed them.

 

 

Either way it doesn't really matter, the crappy bastard passive things are coming out and the set is going to be ran active anyway.  I'm also afraid there's a tweeter that's already damaged too, that's not helping anything either.  I have some Dayton DC28FST-8 tweeters I picked up for another project that got scrapped as I started to learn why multiple drivers playing the same frequencies is a no no.  Perhaps after getting things installed and setup for active listening they might be a better choice to use than the original tweeters?

[altoncustomtech 773]

So, anyone have any idea where the hell to stuff an 8-11/16" x 7-7/8" x 2" amplifier in a 2 door 2nd gen Jimmy/Blazer that's completely hidden? I've literally about torn this truck apart looking for some empty spot to mount the Solid 2 with no luck whatsoever yet. I had a guy tell me there was space behind the glove box for it, but not that I'm seeing or have yet found. I've got to get that little bastard in there so I can start playing with things actively. Just before I started typing this an idea came to me to modify the glove box so that it isn't as deep as it is now, but I'm not sure I could make up a whole 2" doing it. Everything about these trucks is like a puzzle box with all the pieces fitting together so tightly it doesn't leave any wiggle room.

On a side note I'm finding I really like the sound of the Founteks and the Faitals almost equally, though for different reasons. The Auras have an incredibly rich sound to them but lack the presence and upper extension the other two have. The Auras would really shine as a wide range midrange in a 3 way setup.

Damn do I wish I had more time to work on and play with this truck.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Well, I've still not been able to find a place to mount that amp, but my curiosity got the best of me.  I grabbed up those little old enclosures, put them on the same level aimed directly at me on the dash of the Jimmy and connected them to the 125.2 to do a little test.

 

 

 

Holy shit.

 

 

 

My initial reason for doing the test was to verify there wasn't something weird going on with the equipment causing some weird boost in the midrange because it's been pretty much impossible to completely EQ out.  Even with the mids wired up and run active the response was much better I could still hear the ear shattering anomaly on the songs that were hard to listen to before.  I was afraid there might have been an issue with the HU, RCA's, the used 125.2 who knows, but I wanted to be certain.  So I disconnected the components and hooked up the little Logitech enclosures with the Faital's in them and set in to listen to a couple of the worst songs to be sure it wasn't an equipment problem.  I set the DTA for the new little drivers up on the dash, set the EQ flat and set the HPF to 125hz to start with.  Again, holy shit, there it was.  Light, airy, open sound with no harshness.  I played around with it for a bit and then I couldn't help it and started turning it up because it just sounded too damn good.  I had to turn the crossover up to keep from feeling nervous about the output levels I pushed the Faital's to but even without hardly any midbass at all music sounded more like it does in the van than it ever had.  Eventually I got in about half a dozen songs at the same listening level I listened to them on the components without ever adjusting the gain.  Those Faital's are some tough bastards.  I never adjusted the EQ and while I will readily admit it needed a little something just to kinda level things out I was more than surprised and pleased with the results.  I can't say that I won't try to fix what is wrong with these components (if possible) but I'm really leaning toward yanking them and going a bit bigger with an 8" dedicated midbass and the full ranges up top.  

 

To anyone who's considered the Faital's as an option for the same application I can say that for the price and the performance they can give I can't see how anyone could go wrong.  Their high end extension is phenomenal and except maybe for the most discerning ears will never feel like a tweeter would be necessary.

 

That's enough of that but I can't wait to go play with it again!  I have a list of songs to play on it.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

I still say it's a short between the seat and steering wheel.

[altoncustomtech 773]

LOL, well sure, but I'm working on learning how to repair it.  Otherwise I'm having fun learning how to listen and what to listen for on what I like and don't like about the response to pinpoint it and work on what to do to eliminate it.  It's not easy and will take a lot of time to get to the understanding that Sean is trying to enlighten me to.  In the mean time I'm also just enjoying the ride which is the point of the hobby is it not?  This is the first time I've ever listened to or played with full range speakers in a vehicle and just wanted to share my opinions on the experience.

 

 

But yeah, bad short like with 480 3 phase sitting here for sure.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Well, I've put several hours of listening time on each of the three full rangers to get a feel for them in the truck.  I'm glad I did too as the difference it made in the way the Faital's sounded just going from that little amp on the desk to sitting on the dash in the truck powered by the 125.2 with the processing of the Clarion completely changed the way they sounded and for the good.  Since it made that big of a difference on them I spent several hours listening to them each individually on the same tracks with the same EQ, gain and crossover settings (after playing around a little) and placement for as fair a direct swap comparison as possible and took notes.  Here's a compilation of those notes.

 

 

Faital Pro 3FE25:  These things are unrealistically loud for their size.  The little bastards made my ears ring severely after a few bouts of high volume listening.  They are however SUPER detailed, actually to the point of making it a little bit of a problem because I could barely listen to some of the digital music on my iPhone.  The little problems that arise from compression are heard with as much detail as the music.  On songs that are compressed with a high quality compression tool it wasn't really noticeable at all, however on songs that are poorly done it's hard to even listen to them.  Aside from that they are a very sterile and dry sounding set of speakers that like digital technology in general have no warmth.  They do absolutely rock on output and while I kept finding myself wishing to hell I had the Solid 2 installed so I could have the 6.5's running midbass with them to help warm up the lower end of the spectrum their detail/accuracy, high end extension and overall sound make them a good choice for someone looking to do a full range/dedicated midbass setup to keep up with a big sub stage.  They're the first full range speakers I've listened to that have "shimmer" on the top end like a decent tweeter does.  I could EQ out the few problems I heard and have with their response except for that digital noise on badly compressed recordings.

 

Aura NS3:  These had the warmer sound I wished the Faital's would have had but at the cost of the loss of detail and the high end response.  As a matter of fact I was able to take the crossover down to 80hz while I was testing them without them sounding too horribly stressed on most of the music which was kind of shocking.  They did so well on the lower end they almost didn't need a larger midbass to help out but didn't blend well with the XCON trying to pick up the midbass.  Everything I played on them sounded pretty damn good with the only real complaint seeming to be the missing detail and open airy/sterile sound the Faital's had provided.  A good mix of the two would be ideal and little did I know they were waiting to get played with next.

 

Fountek FE85:  I'm still trying to wrap my head around the comments I've read several times about the FR89EX's being better than these.  The FE85's have a warm and inviting sound with great detail and upper end response.  I found myself listening to the same list of tracks over and over again and not really being able to find anything they didn't do very well.  They have a measly 1.5mm XMAX and 12w RMS power handling and I know they had to be getting pushed to the limit but never showed any sign of it except on the busiest and hardest tracks.  If I had the Solid 2 hooked up and the dedicated midbass of my 6.5's to help in that realm along with the time to tune it all in that it would easily sound better than the van.

 

 

 

Just my opinions, thoughts and findings on three great little full range speakers.  Each has definite merit to use in different applications and with a better enclosure, or overall better installation than what I gave them they could do much better I'm sure.  I could see the Faital's being a good choice for guys who would like to go the route of a full range/dedicated midbass setup who are worried about it keeping up with a big, loud substage.  Horns come to my mind when trying to think of something to compare them to.  Loud and detailed to the point that it can be excruciating are traits they both seem to share, or at least in my limited experience with horns.  The Aura's would just about need to be paired with a tweeter to get the best response in a system but they were no slouches.  Lots of people could listen to them with little to no issues with the response.  The Fountek's are winners though.  I had never imagined something so simple could sound so good.  Even without the 6.5's to supply the missing midbass punch the XCON and the FE85's still put on a very convincing performance and on a few acoustic and accapella tracks I would have sworn I was sitting in the room with the performers.  If the FR89's really are "better" than the FE85's I can't wait to get a pair ordered, lol.

[///M5 2,833]

Was wondering when you'd realize the Fountek's are by far the winners of that group. The Aura's need a tweeter, but can be mated with the uber cheap Dayton ND20 or variant, Faital is better at building a different size of driver for a different application but your feelings are pretty spot on. Their distortion profile is also such that even at equal volumes they will sound louder than they are.

I would add one comment though. You should really compare them all with optimized eq settings, not the same. Not really fair if by default your settings favored one driver or the other. And by having it flat, it would definitely favor the Fountek. Either way, that exercise would require you to find what you feel is optimal and then save those settings to switch. A lot of work, but I think your results will be closer if you do.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Wow, that wasn't what I was expecting at all, lol.  I was expecting a more of a "you're wasting your time", "you're not doing it right, spend more time listening" post or something of the like.  I probably am wasting a little time but I still can't drive the damn thing so I may as well make the most of the audio, lol.

 

I've actually gone through and set the EQ to my liking on each set of drivers.  I wrote my notes and did the comparison that way specifically as a drop in comparison.  I figured that was more fair because anyone else who's reading this and tries them out may not have the processing power, experience to use it (not that I really do), same application in mind, or whatever the difference may be.  Maybe I was thinking wrong but that's why I figured it would be a little more fair as it was written.  However,  I was able to get the Faital's tamed down to where they sounded quite beautiful but never could get them on the "warmer" side.  They remained very sterile or cold sounding.  They remind me of a Katana sword, cold like the steel, accurate and deadly, lol.  It's a little surprising how much they remind me of a horn driver though.

 

For you, me, Brad, and others here the Aura's would need a tweeter but a little work on the EQ and they weren't that bad and they sure would make the majority of people very happy with their response.  Not nearly as bad as I thought they would be with a flat EQ though and much better than when I tested them on my desk.

 

Yes the Fountek's were definitely the winners in that little group but I still can't imagine the FR89.  The FE85 is so detailed, crisp and neutral sounding I still find myself wanting to be trying song after song after song to listen to them more and more.  I understood from reading other's comments and reviews on the Fountek 3" full range drivers that they were great little drivers.  After playing with them and having the processing to make adjustments for TA, crossovers, and EQ all right at my fingertips and experiencing it for myself I just can't imagine it getting better.  I am in the process now of running the RCA's and speaker wire for the Solid 2 and getting the material I need to get it mounted above the 125.2 because now I HAVE to see what the addition of a dedicated midbass driver will do for it.  I'm really excited to see where it can go from here and while I know the mids from the components aren't the best option their best response was their midbass response.  I've got some Dayton RS180-4's coming (still no hurry at all) and while I'm working on dialing in the system I'll also be working on a permanent installation for the full ranges.  My plans there are to mount them to the sail panel at the front of the door panels but I'm going to build them so the baffles are removable that way I can change drivers (like going from the FE85 to the FR89) without having to do major work to the pods that will be built there.  Then eventually I will build an enclosure that will fit in the doors and go to an 8" midbass.  That's likely a good ways off before I get anywhere near that point though.