Playing around with some new toys... Training my ears?

[cobra93 47]

I'm glad to hear your opinions on the faitals, will save the money by not buying/trying them.

I have my fr88ex crossed at 250hz. (12db) running off a jl 300/2.

I've tried this site and found I don't hear well above 16k hz anyway so they seem fine to me without a tweeter.

 

I wish I had more time to listen like you are.

 

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

 

Try it, see if the responce graph of the speaker and what this shows has a ny correlation.

Edited December 4, 2013 by cobra93

[///M5 2,833]

88 > 85

Easy to see, bigger number

And Alton, why would using your ears SCIENTIFICALLY be a bad thing? The area where this goes to hell in a handbasket is when the sample size and technique is crap, ala the Blues crew. False conclusions are awful, but you are setting things up how YOU want them and actually doing real comparisons that are giving you insight all while training your ears. All good to me.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Awesome.  I feel much better about the paradigm now, lol.  I would have done all this listening and stuff after getting the amp in and the component set active but I'm pretty well convinced I'll never get the response I want from the components.  After connecting the mids directly to the amp and tuning them like I would if everything was active and still not being able to get the response I'm looking for I just can't imagine any other conclusion to come to about them.  It kinda felt like cheating just going straight to the full ranges and stuff, lol.

[cobra93 47]

Cheating, that's exacyly what I said when I discovered time allignment with the fullrange drivers.

Check the link I posted in #26, I'm curious what you your ears can hear.

[///M5 2,833]

Awesome.  I feel much better about the paradigm now, lol.  I would have done all this listening and stuff after getting the amp in and the component set active but I'm pretty well convinced I'll never get the response I want from the components.  After connecting the mids directly to the amp and tuning them like I would if everything was active and still not being able to get the response I'm looking for I just can't imagine any other conclusion to come to about them.  It kinda felt like cheating just going straight to the full ranges and stuff, lol.

The Dayton's you have on order are better than any mid I've ever seen in a comp set under $2k. Still not my favorite driver, but nonetheless that holds true. Once you have your ears trained though you will better be able to determine what you like and what is lacking and then either adjust drivers or settings accordingly. One key is to separate everything out and listen.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Cheating, that's exacyly what I said when I discovered time allignment with the fullrange drivers.

Check the link I posted in #26, I'm curious what you your ears can hear.

 

I'll have to figure out a good way to do that test through the speakers.  I tried it through a crappy set of headphones and except for the lower frequencies got the results I expected to see from the results I've seen from my annual hearing test at work.  That's a great website though because I can see a person using that to get a reference for where the peaks and valleys are in the response of their entire system and using that information to tailor the EQ to their ears in that fashion.  Nice.  Looks like I need to find my 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable and give this a try in the truck, full ranges first.

 

 

Awesome.  I feel much better about the paradigm now, lol.  I would have done all this listening and stuff after getting the amp in and the component set active but I'm pretty well convinced I'll never get the response I want from the components.  After connecting the mids directly to the amp and tuning them like I would if everything was active and still not being able to get the response I'm looking for I just can't imagine any other conclusion to come to about them.  It kinda felt like cheating just going straight to the full ranges and stuff, lol.

The Dayton's you have on order are better than any mid I've ever seen in a comp set under $2k. Still not my favorite driver, but nonetheless that holds true. Once you have your ears trained though you will better be able to determine what you like and what is lacking and then either adjust drivers or settings accordingly. One key is to separate everything out and listen.

 

I'm glad to hear they're a decent driver.  You say they're not your favorite driver, out of idle curiosity what is?  Also, for the end goal of using a pair of 8" drivers for dedicated midbass I have been looking, reading, and trying to learn what would be a good fit for it.  The one driver that keeps popping up as a decent candidate is the Dayton RSS210HO.  With it's "low distortion" motor, fair XMAX and other such considerations it seems like a fair candidate to me.  I was wondering what your thoughts on that are.  Great midbass is really nice and I know it's not terribly easy to achieve but I feel that by the time I'm through with all the changes with the full ranges and the output the XCON is capable of that it's going to take more than the 6.5's I have now, or even the Dayton RS180's to keep up.  I thought maybe the RSS210's or something like them would fit the bill.

[///M5 2,833]

And that is what I don't like the Dayton's for. They aren't good at being midbasses. Ultra detailed for a 7 in particular in their price category but they give up the lows to do the upper end. And of course the cone breakup is awful and nasty on them.

The 7 to me just makes no sense. Not big enough to do anything on the bottom and not small enough to really be a midrange. Sort of an in betweener that compromises where I wouldn't. I played with a set for a week or two trying to make them work and instead they sit in my basement in their shipping box. A ported enclosure goes a REALLY long way in helping them, but personally there are a ton of other drivers in that category I would rather run. The 225 is significantly better in this regard, but still not enough so to be a worthwhile buy. This of course is further compounded by the fact that if you want to use these passive they require seriously expensive crossovers and a rather adept designer. Active they are much better off though.

[altoncustomtech 773]

That's understandable.  Of course I will be running them active so there's no problems with worrying about anything passive.  I will admit the RS180 and 225 were early considerations but I've recently began to look at a more subwoofer oriented driver for the midbass duty.  Kind of like the way Jared used the Aura NS 10" and then 12" for the midbasses in his Honda the RSS210HO subwoofer, I thought, looked like a decent fit for what I'm gearing up for.

 

I've devised a way (in theory and on paper) to build ported enclosure inside the doors of my Jimmy.  As it looks now I won't likely get more than .75cuft of space out of them but for midbass duty I see that as about right for most 8" drivers.  I'll know with more certainty whether it will work and exactly what kind of space I'll get when I get to that step but die grinder wheels be damned I'm going to make an attempt at making enough space in the sheet metal to stuff some kind of enclosure in there even if it only ends up being sealed.

[///M5 2,833]

If you run a full ranger, there is no reason for having a midbass that plays any midrange. Since you have the 3's you should figure out how low they can go in your installation. This will help you narrow down the midbass.

[altoncustomtech 773]

If you run a full ranger, there is no reason for having a midbass that plays any midrange. Since you have the 3's you should figure out how low they can go in your installation. This will help you narrow down the midbass.

 

Yep, I was already on that track which is the premise behind my last post.  The RS180's I've bought from a forum member when I was looking at doing a new tweeter and mid active.  Since I'm moving past that point I thought I might try out the 180's for the hell of it and then sell them on here again.  I look at is as just adding more experience with different drivers, sound and tuning.

[///M5 2,833]

Spend some time with the EQ taming the cone breakup and listening for where and what it does. It will be enlightening as well.

In an 8" driver it is hard to beat the SLS bang for the buck. After that it is space that determines things as always.

[altoncustomtech 773]

I got to show off the temporary test setup to the only member who's even remotely "local" to me.  Even though I still don't have any dedicated midbass going, just the XCON and Fountek's, I think he was impressed.  I think what really impressed him was the $13.25 price tag on the Fountek's and the performance they can give for that price.  From the passenger seat I detected some slight distortion from the FE85's at high listening levels from the 160hz crossover point.  With their super small XMAX I'm positive they were simply being driven beyond their linear limits but for a 12 watt RMS rated speaker they're taking some incredible abuse.  I've never touched the gain on the 125.2 and even though all these little full ranges are 8 ohm I'm still giving them a crap load of power relative to their ratings.  They've all held up really well but the FE85's have the lowest power rating and are still taking the same abuse the other two were.  I think that says a lot for the quality of the brand as a whole.  As a matter of fact if the FW168 looked like a good candidate for a dedicated midbass (it doesn't seem to) I would try them out just for the sake of trying more products from the brand.

 

I'm thinking about going ahead and ordering the FR89EX's and the Peerless 6.5" SLS woofers to use until I get the door hinges repaired in the truck to support the added weight of the enclosures for the 8" SLS woofers.  It's not that much money and I can turn around and use the 6.5's on another project or sell them.

[///M5 2,833]

Why not just run the SLS8's IB at first?

[altoncustomtech 773]

I kinda figured the door wouldn't hold up to the abuse and IB in the door wouldn't be the best way to run them.

 

I suppose it would be the best way to start out though.  I guess it doesn't make much sense to just beat around the bush with 6.5's that will likely never live up to what is needed.

[///M5 2,833]

The 8's IB will be better than the 6.5's sealed...and you can always turn them down/eq them to your needs. no logic in the 6.5's for what you are doing IMO.

[altoncustomtech 773]

Well I wasn't going to build any enclosures for the 6.5's, only the 8's.  I was just going to use the 6.5's until I had more done to other things, but yeah, I may as well just skip to the end and go with what I know I'm looking to do in the long run.

[///M5 2,833]

I realized you weren't just trying to state there was basically no logic in the smaller ones

[altoncustomtech 773]

Now in my true fashion I've just pulled the trigger on a pair of the FR89EX's and a pair of the Peerless SLS 8's.  The only problem is the SLS 8's only seem to come in 8 ohm so now it looks like I'll eventually have to rework the amp rack, again, to accommodate one of the GTO1004's to run bridged on the SLS 8's.  Yay, more work for me!!!  LOL....

[altoncustomtech 773]

I should probably elaborate, I ordered the Peerless 830667 which was the only one I could find in an 8" size that touted the SLS designation.  If there's another one I should have ordered or be looking at then let me know what the model/part number is so I can find where they're sold and order them.

[lithium 358]

http://www.parts-express.com/peerless-830667-8-paper-cone-sls-subwoofer--264-1102

 

yep thats it. i run them ib in my doors. need a good deadening job to keep the doors from rattling apart. i used modeling clay to strengthen up the baffle but it goes to hell after a year or so. going to try duct seal next. 

[altoncustomtech 773]

 

http://www.parts-express.com/peerless-830667-8-paper-cone-sls-subwoofer--264-1102

 

yep thats it. i run them ib in my doors. need a good deadening job to keep the doors from rattling apart. i used modeling clay to strengthen up the baffle but it goes to hell after a year or so. going to try duct seal next. 

 

The doors are already pretty well deadened, though considering the upcoming application more may very well be necessary.

 

How much power are you running to yours?  I'm fairly certain the 125.2 on them at 8 ohms just won't be enough to get the midbass job done as well as it could or should be done.

[///M5 2,833]

Don't be so sure. They can take more, but even if there were a 4ohm version I'd buy the 8.

[altoncustomtech 773]

I don't mind the 8 ohms, from a power vs. distortion vs. damping standpoint it's a good thing, but on an amp that's rated 125wrms per channel into 4 ohms I could only expect about half that into 8.  I just wasn't sure it would be enough to run them properly for the intended application.  Though I suppose using them IB they don't need as much to move to their limit so it may all be a moot point anyway.

[lithium 358]

Alton, on 09 Dec 2013 - 12:06, said:

lithium, on 08 Dec 2013 - 14:42, said:

http://www.parts-express.com/peerless-830667-8-paper-cone-sls-subwoofer--264-1102

yep thats it. i run them ib in my doors. need a good deadening job to keep the doors from rattling apart. i used modeling clay to strengthen up the baffle but it goes to hell after a year or so. going to try duct seal next.

The doors are already pretty well deadened, though considering the upcoming application more may very well be necessary.

How much power are you running to yours? I'm fairly certain the 125.2 on them at 8 ohms just won't be enough to get the midbass job done as well as it could or should be done.

i'm running a kicker kx250.2 bridged to each. plenty of power imo but i've heard of people using more.

previously i was only using a single 250.2 powering both and they still could get pretty loud.

that's 85 x 2 @ 4ohm or 250x1 @ 4ohm

Edited December 10, 2013 by lithium

[altoncustomtech 773]

Would you say it would be worth the effort to change the amp rack and the 125.2 for the GTO1004?  It's really not a considerable amount of work to do it or anything.

 

Even if I do change the 125.2 out for the JBL I may still keep the Solid 2 for the full ranges.  At this point I'm just not sure, lol.  So many options.

 

The FR89's and the 8's are scheduled to be delivered today.  Woohoo!