balance/SQ, lossless line voltage?

[ncc74656 2]

m5 - question about the placement, frequencies become more directional as they increase right? i can hear that just stepping off to the side of my home speakers vs directly in front of them. to that end would it not be better to have tweeters at ear level and mid range at least some what pointing ot the driver? instead of having the mid range pointing into the floor or across into a door that is?

it just made sense when it was explained to me this way at work.

[///M5 2,833]

There are no rules of thumb that work in car audio. EVERYTHING is vehicle dependent.

As for the idiots at the shop, google Alpine F1 Status and then the Scan Speak Revelator. Then you will understand the retarded markup and ridiculousness of the car audio world. The status is a great component set, but it is still not optimized for any one install which is the detriment of running passive in a car.

And seriously, stop with the fucking 3 way. You have already distanced pretty much everyone else who could help you with the idiocy and you are pushing me too.

[///M5 2,833]

it just made sense when it was explained to me this way at work.

And just to be clear, the whole premise is absolutely wrong as well.

[ncc74656 2]

let us say i go with a 2 way setup of a tweeter and a mid range driver. is the objective to build a proper enclosure in a door and use a pro audio speaker for this purpose? i ask this as i am not aware of any "car audio" companies that offer a mid range driver that is designed for anything other tham IB and it is my understanding that putting a IB driver into any type of enclosure is a poor idea.

To that end an active cross over setup would be a bi/amped setup correct? that is to say that either a 4 channel amp with dedicated front/rear to be used for tweet/mid or 2 amps for this purpose.

I am assuming that a dayton or some other parts express speaker vs what ever car audio brand.

[///M5 2,833]

Wow. Need to take a step back again.

You can't run active without a separate channel for EVERY driver. This isn't really bi-amping but directly having an amp channel for each speaker.

Car companies regularly don't build things for IB either, they take some off the shelf POS and private label it. There are exceptions, but don't get too giddy about them.

And no, Pro Audio drivers are generally horseshit in cars and always require a ported enclosure. You aren't ready to deal with that.

What you will need are some "normal" drivers that you mount correctly in a door. IB it will be. Anything else is too much to bite off, in particular when you should be redoing whatever you do months later.

...and again, the more questions you ask the more obvious it is that a 3 way will be one of the biggest fails ever, don't.

[ncc74656 2]

i understand that each speaker needs a channel, but if not pro audio speakers then wich? are the daytons and the like not pro audio speakers? what is a "normal" speaker?

[///M5 2,833]

I am thinking a passive component set is better for you at this point. Work on your installation

[Impious 1,476]

m5 - question about the placement, frequencies become more directional as they increase right? i can hear that just stepping off to the side of my home speakers vs directly in front of them. to that end would it not be better to have tweeters at ear level and mid range at least some what pointing ot the driver? instead of having the mid range pointing into the floor or across into a door that is?it just made sense when it was explained to me this way at work.

If anything is ever explained to you at work, assume that the truth is the exact opposite of what they explained to you. I don't think I've seen you state one "fact" you learned at work that was actually correct. They are filling you with misinformation, and that's just confusing you more.

The sound radiating from a loudspeaker becomes directional as the wavelength of the sound wave becomes shorter than the diameter of the radiating diameter of the driver (i. e. the cone). When the wavelength is longer than the diameter of the cone the sound is radiated equally in all directions, which is called omnidirectional and this region is referred to as the piston region. When the wavelength becomes shorter than the diameter of the cone then essentially the sound waves from one side of the driver will be out of phase with the sound waves from the other side of the cone and cancellation occurs when you are off-axis to the driver (off to the side, as you mentioned). As you move further off-axis this affect gets worse, also as you go higher in frequency this affect gets worse. This is called beaming.

So what does this mean, and why are they wrong ? Because it's not just dependent on the frequency, it also depends on the diameter of the cone. A smaller cone will remain omnidirectional up to higher frequency before it begins to beam. So just the act of being in the "midrange" does not mean the sound radiated from the speaker is directional, as long as the wavelength is longer than the diameter of the cone. And even then it's not a brick wall affect, it's just the point at which the driver will begin to become directional and the top end of the driver will begin to gradually roll off and be attenuated when off-axis. A 7" driver will beam before a 3" driver which will beam before a tweeter. Look at a response graph that shows both on and off-axis response to see what I'm talking about. A 3" driver is omnidirectional at 4khz whereas a 7" driver is not. A 1" tweeter is omnidirectional at 10khz whereas a 3" midrange is not.

Since the sound we hear is the sum total of the direct and reflected sound, it's important that not just the on-axis frequency response but also the total power response (on axis + off axis reflected sound) be relatively flat. So even if the driver is aimed toward the listener, you would generally still want to avoid running the driver far into it's beaming region (a few exceptions that are outside the scope of this discussion). The reason the sound drops off on your home speakers is because they crossed the drivers too high and in their beaming region......most people would agree that's probably a bad crossover design.

i understand that each speaker needs a channel, but if not pro audio speakers then wich? are the daytons and the like not pro audio speakers? what is a "normal" speaker?

The Dayton, Fountek, etc are not "pro audio" drivers. That is a specific genre of high efficiency speakers for live sound reinforcement or other large venues (clubs, etc). The drivers you are looking at are just raw drivers, or "normal" drivers, or DIY drivers. But not pro audio.

[///M5 2,833]

To add more fuel to the topic, Brad outlines what happens on a driver level but you also need to consider human anatomy. At low frequencies the brain can determine phasing differences in a signal due to interaural time delay (since there is space between the ears) and at higher frequencies we tend to lean toward level differences between the ears to hear directionally. This effect is also not linear and can be greatly influenced by overall level. At high SPL and high frequency this can go to hell as well. Put a CO2 sensor in every outlet in a room, have one go off and try to find it - not so much fun at night...

Either way mix the driver response, with anatomy and your general statement is really far from reality.

What is the cure? It comes back to this intelligent installation we keep referring to that you keep ignoring and instead are focusing on adding drivers (and more mess) to the equation when you haven't yet reached the 101 stage.

You really should start passive. Anything active is obviously miles beyond what anyone at your shop can comprehend.

[SpeakerBoy 64]

He's saying IB is a good first step. You can achieve excellent results, if done properly.

don't worry about going all out on it yet, just one step at a time.

[ncc74656 2]

this all changes quite a bit of things... more to think about. I think what i am going to do is buy a 2X4 mini dsp and a new 4 channel amp (650.4 kicker i think). this will replace my current amp that is having issues and give me a fully featured processor. leaving everything else the same i can play with this processor and see what changes in the setup that i know well. from there i will figure out what i want to change and then make a new game plan.

[lithium 358]

keep in mind that the 2x4 unit is only a 2 way processor. so it will not cover the sub.

 

also, if you get it, make sure you get the miniDC and volume pot. 

[ncc74656 2]

i thought about getting the 4X8 but my thought is that i will run the sub off the head unit as... well its a sub so it does not take much to cross it over. downt the road i can buy another 2X4 OR a 4X8 and make a case. sell the 2X4 to a co worker.

i like the notion of controlling it through a computer, i like that a hell of a lot more than the idea of a deck control. the POT is only needed to change hte master volume with out the computer hooked up right?

was the minidc the 12V adapter?

[lithium 358]

i thought about getting the 4X8 but my thought is that i will run the sub off the head unit as... well its a sub so it does not take much to cross it over. downt the road i can buy another 2X4 OR a 4X8 and make a case. sell the 2X4 to a co worker.

i like the notion of controlling it through a computer, i like that a hell of a lot more than the idea of a deck control. the POT is only needed to change hte master volume with out the computer hooked up right?

was the minidc the 12V adapter?

 

 

a sub would still benefit from EQ and TA. if you're just experimenting with it then its up to you. could use it for an active HT design or something later. the minidc is for car audio installs, it has a delay turn -on and does some filtering.

 

your idea that a minidsp and computer being easier to tune than a deck is completely backwards. the minidsp is an absolute pain, imo. personally i would just pick up an old 3 way capable headunit for 50-100 bucks instead. super easy to install and sell it off later. 

 

get the volume pot just to have. you wouldn't exactly need to use the pot with a headunit already controlling volume but there might be a reason to use it anyways. i sacrificed a cheap pair of rcas to wire mine up. 

Edited March 1, 2014 by lithium

[lithium 358]

list of the active capable headunits. 

 

http://www.caraudioclassifieds.org/forum/sound-quality-area/38473-active-hus-list.html

 

if you're really against swapping out your hu just stick on of these in your glove box. still easier to use than a minidsp. 

 

edit: not sure they they mean by "3 way no sub".. they probably mean full 3 way... i own the clarion 785usb

Edited March 1, 2014 by lithium

[ncc74656 2]

ill look around at head units, id like more things to play with than many of the HU's have built in. i like the GUI on the minidsp and the simple notion of requiring a laptop vs the head unit does not weigh negatively on my decision. perhaps if the deck has a more fluid or responsive interface then that would be a consideration.

the minidsp has 48khz sampling while the 2X8 has 96. i use 96 on my computer but i believe most all compressed music is 48 so it may be a moot point. 2 2X4's are cheaper than a 2X8 and i could control them simultaneously from a single computer. only added step would be having 2 configuration windows open as opposed to one.

wich ever route i settle on i think i will be ordering parts this next week. i may buy a new amp at work if we have a decent price point with decent wattage. so much of what we have are lower wattage 120.00 amps. i forget the brand now but while reading specs on some of hte products we have i found a "250X4" amp with a 72db signal to noise ratio. never seen specs quite like that on an amp before.

[lithium 358]

 

 

ill look around at head units, id like more things to play with than many of the HU's have built in. i like the GUI on the minidsp and the simple notion of requiring a laptop vs the head unit does not weigh negatively on my decision. perhaps if the deck has a more fluid or responsive interface then that would be a consideration.

 

you're right that the minidsp has far more features than a active capable hu but thats not to say you necessarily need them. limited features simply mean you need to take more time with installation. correcting problems by changing aiming or position rather than try to mask issues with EQ. 

 

making changes on the fly with a deck is much more intuitive. unless you want to sit in your driveway for hours on end. when you're actually driving, road noise, engine noise, wind, etc will come into play. fiddling with the HU at a stop light is much more appropriate in those circumstances. 

 

 

 

the minidsp has 48khz sampling while the 2X8 has 96. i use 96 on my computer but i believe most all compressed music is 48 so it may be a moot point. 

 

48k sampling rate is plenty, guaranteed you're not hearing a difference between that and 96k in a car. 

 

 

2 2X4's are cheaper than a 2X8 and i could control them simultaneously from a single computer. only added step would be having 2 configuration windows open as opposed to one.

 

i have two 2x4 units, wasn't aware you could do this. pretty sure you can only use one at a time. that's why its a pain. you might also need a line driver with the 2x4 units if you run into thermal noise.. 

 

 

 

 

wich ever route i settle on i think i will be ordering parts this next week. i may buy a new amp at work if we have a decent price point with decent wattage. so much of what we have are lower wattage 120.00 amps. i forget the brand now but while reading specs on some of hte products we have i found a "250X4" amp with a 72db signal to noise ratio. never seen specs quite like that on an amp before. 

 

i run a mix of amps... 3 kickers, US acoustic, and a large 2channel cadence for my sub. really want to upgrade/simplify to a pair of ppi900.4 or one of its "knock offs" (polk, hertz, etc). they're super small and built pretty well. 

Edited March 1, 2014 by lithium

[///M5 2,833]

Sampling rate is the LAST thing you need to worry about.

Do NOT buy a miniDSP. It will fail you miserably. You can't set up an active crossover and then run with it. It takes DAYS of tweaking in particular when your ears are noobtastic. Considering the confusion you have regarding simple things a complex processor like the miniDSP will only make your setup sound like shit.

You are also grasping onto features in headunits that are pointless. Like the HD radio. I still don't understand why you are so eager to grab a technology that sounds worse than standard over the air broadcasts. In particular of course when our radio stations suck donkey dick here.

Either run passive completely or buy an active headunit. Anything else you do will be a huge waste of money.

[///M5 2,833]

In reality I can't with any conscience recommend that you run active. Just run a passive set but focus on installing it properly. This will be your biggest gain to date and a learning experience you drastically need.

[ncc74656 2]

perhaps the mini dsp only allows one instance but thats not an issue. you can just run a VM box with unity and set the second USB address to client instead of host. two side by side windows regardless of the systems limitations.

im going to buy a mini dsp one way or another. maybe ill use it in my home stereo to see how settings effect things or maybe ill throw it at the stereo in the truck and play around. dosnt need to be the greatest or work out of hte box, hell i may not even keep it but 120 bucks for a product i can play around with is not an issue, its cheap.

i am going to get a ZX650.4 kicker, i looked around what we had to work today but the best 4 channel amp we have is a 50X4 so that settled that.

on a related note - summer is coming and i will be no doubt installing lots of speakers. (50.00 pioneers and such) in car doors. for a very cheap install done right; what would you say should be done in regards to the physical install? i ask as it was mentioned that more should be done than screwing a speaker to its factory location.

[///M5 2,833]

Stop just copying text out of places and typing it. You obviously don't learn when you plagiarize.

Minidsp also has serious voltage limits. Beware. Nasty turn on pop and potential for noise. Ruthless capability for settings. It is a horrible device for a noob.

Wasting $120 when you could buy a used old school Eclipse h/u with more usefull crossovers for the same price is asinine. Stop being so thick headed and just buy a headunit. You will seriously thank us BIG TIME later.

As for the installation. I guess we can see where your priorities lie. Had you spent 10 seconds searching you'd have asked a much better question. Change your priorities. Install is BY FAR the most important and you are ignoring it. Start searching, thinking and then ask.

[///M5 2,833]

Worst thing is you keep clarifying why all local shops are useless

[ncc74656 2]

what are you on about copying and pasting? i have done no such thing. You have accused me twice now of copying and pasting what i type here and i assure you that what i have written here is from my own keyboard and not copied from other sources. frankly given the immeasurable inaccuracy of my assertions i am amazed that such an accusation would be made to begin with.

as for local shops being useless, most people do not know or care about what is or is not a good install. they simply wish to take there welfare check (or tax return this time of year) and get some "sick beats" in there car for a few hundred bucks and call it a day. Those who do wish to have quality audio seldom have the money for labor charges of a shop. not just ours but any shop for custom work, same could be said for lift kits or body kits for hot rods. It is a VERY narrow market of people whom are willing to invest the time or money required for anything but a basic install walking through the doors of my shop. I have not been in the shop long enough to comment on audio season but the same "class" of people who i see in the shop are also my tenants and believe me when i tell you they do not in any way fill the consumer base required for a shop to be properly educated on advanced audio. My understanding is that the only shop around that possesses such a clientele and employee expertise base is automotive concepts.

That i am aware of there is no course or schooling dedicated to the field of car audio, it is a field in which you are able to learn 12V principles and the rest comes from experience or brand training's in which much of the information is misleading anyway to sell their particular product.

I searched for eclipse products and found some older head units. I have NEVER seen a single din deck with such features before. 8V pre amps, 11 band EQ's, 6 pre amp outs.... i have never seen a pioneer, kenwood, or sony deck with such features. having said this i have yet to find an eclipse deck with USB and BT, do they exist or did the company shut down before such features were common place?

I have been told that installation is important but i have yet to see any type of install other than speakers screwed to a door and a sub box placed in the back seat. the goal for most installs is to replace the blown out speakers and head unit with some boss 12" lcd head unit and sony explodes. selling a couple hundred in product and a couple hundred in labor for installs. i have yet to be involved in any design beyond a door panel removal.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ncc74656

[puscifer2 27]

Read the disclaimer on m5's tag. He may come off like a dick sometimes given your point of view, but he's trying to get you to think. Plain and simple most of us agree you're jumping the gun here. Take it as you wish, ultimately it is your car and your money. I'm pretty sure he's trying to tell you, your putting up specs for items and don't fully grasp what they mean. Not individually but as a whole. Reading into one number of a speaker, amp whatever means very little to nothing. It's the whole set of info given you need to understand. Especially your desire to go the more complex active route.

[///M5 2,833]

That, and the million permutations that you have to go through to determine what works.  Pretty hard to A/B if your ears aren't trained.  I'd start there.

 

 

what are you on about copying and pasting? i have done no such thing.

 

Copying text/summarizing doesn't matter when it isn't learned but repeated it shows.