balance/SQ, lossless line voltage?

[lithium 358]

yes i want to go a 3 way. if you all wish ill ditch out of the forum and not ask any questions. thats fine. however i will never learn with out doing so ill go at it figuring things out as i go and let ya know how i fair.

 

you wont learn how to do it correctly by jumping in that deep. its like asking an infant to run

[SpeakerBoy 64]

Man, all anyone is saying is run before you walk.

It's your unwillingness to learn that's inhibiting things here.

[lithium 358]

Its almost as if he's saying a 3 way front stage is the pinnacle of SQ. Why not a 4 way? What about a center channel or rear fill? I don't understand the fixation. A single driver (point source) that could reproduce the entire spectrum accurately would be the most ideal driver ever. 

[Randal Johnson 544]

What about a center channel? A single driver (point source) that could reproduce the entire spectrum accurately would be the most ideal driver ever.

Interesting ...

My 49 Ford has a factory Center Channel area that you could almost fit a 8" driver and reinstall the factory Grille ...

I have new 8" fullrange driver that I'm not using at the moment.

We were considering a sealed 8 in the center channel area for a sub stage location, so it might be something cool to experiment and just see how much stage width and depth I could get out of it ...

Edited February 26, 2014 by Cablguy184

[///M5 2,833]

yes i want to go a 3 way. if you all wish ill ditch out of the forum and not ask any questions. thats fine. however i will never learn with out doing so ill go at it figuring things out as i go and let ya know how i fair.

Dude, you can't even wire an amp. Going to a three way active is only going to sound like shit. You have to learn to tune before it will help.

If you actually want to learn like you say, you HAVE to do a 2 way first. Otherwise you will never learn. Way too many knobs to turn and you need to turn them all to make it work.

[lithium 358]

 

What about a center channel? A single driver (point source) that could reproduce the entire spectrum accurately would be the most ideal driver ever.

Interesting ...

My 49 Ford has a factory Center Channel area that you could almost fit a 8" driver and reinstall the factory Grille ...

I have new 8" fullrange driver that I'm not using at the moment.

We were considering a sealed 8 in the center channel area for a sub stage location, so it might be something cool to experiment and just see how much stage width and depth I could get out of it ...

 

 

i wasn't suggesting that those things would be a good idea. just trying to point out that OP has a fixation on a 3 way front stage for no reason. I also don't see how a  center channel in a vehicle would improve anything. what is it suppose to accomplish?  i doubt anyone can really get an 8" fullrange to work in a car. the only installs i've seen involved giant modifications to the dash.

 

Personally, I really like the idea of using one driver that can cover the majority of the spectrum and then a midbass to back up the low end (same applied to a 3 way with a tweeter covering the very top). 

Edited February 26, 2014 by lithium

[///M5 2,833]

KISS principle should dominate. If you can't do simple right, complicated will be a major fail.

Center channels in a "stereo" setup are stupid unless you have a huge collection of music recorded in surround. That or you watch movies. If it is panned monophonic then fine, go ahead and even add rears.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Me and the "what if" thought was just that guys ...

No, no center channel for me ... But I do have plans for that particular location ...

No as for the topic on hand ... Yes, I agree with you guys.

Start out with a simple 2 way setup and learn from there ... Nothing like testing and tuning along with trial and error ...

[Impious 1,476]

yes i want to go a 3 way. if you all wish ill ditch out of the forum and not ask any questions. thats fine. however i will never learn with out doing so ill go at it figuring things out as i go and let ya know how i fair.

Likewise there's no point in asking questions if you aren't going to listen, either. You asked what we thought of your planned setup. We told you. Your response was essentially "I'm doing it anyways". Been down that path many times with people, no point in wasting time answering questions if they aren't going to listen to reasonable advice.

You are severely underestimating the complexity of a 3 way front stage with a digital processor that has a wide range of features. Your experience with the KX3 isn't even relevant. Not only is it not in the same ballpark, it's in an entirely different zip code. What you aren't grasping is that if you ACTUALLY wanted to learn, you would cut your teeth on a high quality 2-way active front stage with a digital processor that offers a wide range of features. If you want a stereo that you can never get to sound right and confuses the hell out of you, stay the course with your plan.

[ncc74656 2]

to be honest the notion of working with a 3 way setup that is over complicated and difficult to setup and perfect is a large incentive to me to head down that road. In my experience i have had coax 2 and 3 way setups and component 2 way setups in passive and active (never with a DSP) and i have found that when i try to make 1 driver reproduce to wide of a frequency range i get distortion and unclean sounds to high volume. I have used mostly alpine R's in the past and then these 10" crachendos that are... well yea... I am leaning towards a 3 way primarily due to the requirement of a "mid bass", through out my conversations on here and SMD it has been pointed out htat my mid bass is severally lacking and that i needed a better mid bass speaker and thus i would truly like to have a dedicated midbass that is not going to be distorted by higher frequencies for fall off on the frequency curve. i have seen plenty of good drivers that have excellent published specs on response and efficiency. My original idea to go with JL, focal, rockford, ect. seems to have been misguided as there speakers are stupid expensive compared to the ones i have been told about on here so in that light i am taking that information. It is a choice to not go 2 way and if i were open to going 2 way i would most certainly go with it based on your recommendations. I had considered a 2 way from hertz a while back however again the issue of a mid bass came up and then on top of that i simply wanted a better environment to learn in. id much prefer to simply have all the speakers and DSP's to play with so i can see what does or does not work. i have no issue spending 500 bucks on a part i may not use as i have never used it before and im sure it will be a learning experience. my secondary goal is to have a great sounded stereo, my primary goal is to have product on hand that i can play with. perhaps i do buy these speakers and end up not being able to tune it out right so i end up using just the mid and high from it, perhaps it takes me 5 or 6 rebuilds to get it right, im fine with both of those scenarios. i am on here to primarily give me the best shot i can have at succeeding in a 3 way setup. if it sounds like shit the first few times i install it then so be it, its my vehicle so i do not care about the quality of the sound while im learning.

if i had nto made this post i would not know about the daytons, the funteks (or how ever they are spelt), nor would i have found the minidsp's or seen that JL and the like are quite over priced for my application. in that sense i believe this post has been time well spent. even if i do not end up using the parts im buying for this i will at least have them to play with and experiment with and i will finally have first hand experience with such items. hell i would not have even considered a mid range smaller than 6.5" until i started doing the research based on this thread.

[///M5 2,833]

Seriously, you are going to fail like hell permanently on one of your goals. It will NOT sound good. No way, no how. It is absolutely a terrible idea. TERRIBLE.

To make matters worse, your previous distortion problem will not be cured by a 3 way. For that it will be no better. You are trying to bandage an old problem with a new desire to overcomplicate everything. Stop doing what you think will be cool or the fuckwads on SMD think you should do. It'll fail like hell. Instead be truthful about your GOALS and then we can help with drivers. It will seriously sound 1000x better than what things will sound like if you do a 3 way.

It is also a complete mistake to look at ANY car audio drivers if you are running active.

You are also misapplying budget. Spending on DIY drivers is unrelated to car audio.

[ncc74656 2]

I had never thought about using anything other than car audio drivers in my install until you suggested it. I had always thought and been taught that car audio is in the car and home audio is int he home. you go with rockford, alpine, or kicker in a car and buy yamaha, klipsh, and bose in the home. I have only recently been looking at a wider range of drivers for the car.

I will always have the option to go 2 way later on and sell off what i buy. as for my audio goals i want to have clear and loud bass (it does not need to be ultra hella accurate but just a balance between massive spl and linear frequency response). I want a system with minimal dead spots and a relative response curve. that is to say a response curve that is acoustically pleasing but not so much a "flat" graph curve that would sound hollow and empty (not that you could ever get such a thing in a standard vehicle anyway).

basically i want to have the same audio quality as my home stereo and the volume of a rock concert.

[///M5 2,833]

That is about as impersonal as any set of goals I've ever heard. Owe it to yourself to figure out what that means in comparison to what you have installed.

BTW, You don't buy Klipsch or Yamaha for your car either.

No amount of research will lead you in the right direction UNLESS it is a 2 way. Even then I would expect you will change what you choose 3-6mo after you install it. You don't know what you like, have no idea how to listen to make changes, have been severely misled throughout your life, and need to step back and spend some time training your ears.

[///M5 2,833]

Oh, and home stereo is a start since that is your quality metric. What is it, what does it do well, what does it need improvement on, etc. And leave out the sub portion as that part is uber easy.

[ncc74656 2]

it is a mix of a system... some speakers i have had sence i was a kid in high school. my computer: liquid cooled and over clocked with twin radion 7970's outputing HDMI to my Yamaha RX-V765 7.2 surround system. I have it on a AVR UPS next to my computer with a dedicated breaker to run it to eliminate ground noise.

front stage (FL FR: 2 4 way (with on speaker controlls) 2" dome tweet, 2.5" tweet, 4.5" mid range (paper cone), 10" bass driver. brand of focused field - 400W (i think).

center channle: sony 2 way dual 5.5" with super tweeter (150W)

Flank stage: sony 3 way - 200W dual 8" bass driver (aluminum cone), 3.5" mid range (plastic cone), 1" super tweeter.

rear stage: sony single - 150W 6.5" 3 way (same as listed above in construction).

front sub: Vidsonix 15" 580W progressive surround sub.

rear sub: Vidsonix quad 12" 2200W bass cabinet

speakers are placed as follows FL... C.... FR

..........................front sub

.......................................L ..........R

.........................................RL .........RR

............................................Rear sub

(roughly in a rectangular pattern with the seating in the center) subs oppose one another with one in forward phase and one in reverse

I have EQ'd them on the yamaha and adjusted time alignemnt with the built in omnidirectional to start with and then fine tuning while playing movies, test tones, and music of various types from pandora and the like. mostly it is tuned to provide the best audio while watching blue rays or playing first person shooters.

Edited February 27, 2014 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

More importantly what would you improve about it?

[ncc74656 2]

i would like more low end bass, it can not reproduce loud bass like my trucks audio can. outside of that i suppose just an over all volume boost. but it does get very loud and i never run into the issue where its so loud on one part of the music that i cant hear another. given a quality audio source i can play niki manaj to motzart and have what i consider crisp fidelity and linear response. i have never had a vehicle that is able to keep the frequency response smooth enough to not drowned out one part with another. I would like more rear stage power as there are times that in surround sound it can be hard to hear the noises behind me but i EQ'd the rear channels to boost the higher frequencies to help solve this.

over all i have been quite satisfied with my home stereo, I would truly put my pieced together stereo up against any bose stereo and confidently say that performance per dollar my home stereo is a better buy. I would never spend thousands on a set of bose speakers when in my application my sony easily perform well and balanced. i do think that most of that is due to a good quality receiver to keep things in check.

much of my reasoning behind going 3 way in my truck is that my home stereo is at minimum 3 way and with the more recent addition of my front stage a 4 way system. any good, high quality, high fidelity home system is at least 3 way. i want that in my truck.

the large amount of control i have with the yamaha is what i want in my truck, the ability to adjust distance of speakers, time, raise and drop frequencies, ect. thats why i was looking into the 4X8 minidsp - so i could have just 1 set of RCA's for my bass and 1 set for the rest and have 4 outputs and the control at my finger tips for all of the channels.

Edited February 27, 2014 by ncc74656

[///M5 2,833]

Getting somewhere. Just an FYI, your home stereo would sound WAY fucking better if it weren't a 3/4 way. Cheap passives are awful.

For doing what you want, it will be VERY easy with a single 7" mid and a full size tweeter. With good tuning it should be able to surpass what you have at home.

[ncc74656 2]

what i feel throws the truck off is the massive 18" sub tuned to 30hz right behind me. i want to keep that volume level of bass and bring the rest of the system up to match. in that respect i want to have a MASSIVE increase in 60-120hz bass. I am not sure a 6.5" is capable of doing such a thing. woudl a 7 really be that much better?

the stereo is truly a mixmatch. the sonys i got for my 16th birthday, the subs i got when i was 17 and started DJing, the receiver i got at employee at best buy for STUPID cheap, and the fronts i got at a garage sale as when i bought the receiver i only had 5.1 and needed 2 more...

[///M5 2,833]

You've only heard 6.5"s that were installed like shit and not optimized at all for where they went. The install is more important than the drivers. Focusing on that would do you well.

[ncc74656 2]

the vast majority of 6.5's are designed IB no? so you screw them into the door panel, add some deadening if required and call it a day. on custom installs i am told that you build a pod around ear level for a mid range, put a mid bass down low and then place a tweeter in line with ones ears. that you limit standing waves and avoid symmetry to avoid wave collisions on certain frequencies.

maybe what i should do is pick up a 2X8 for future expansion and buy a good mid range 7 to use with my current tweeters, pick up a horn, silk, and bullet tweet with good specs and swap them out to see how there sound changes. then throw in the 3 way to see just how far off from that base line i fall. id like to try speakers in my factory location, in the optimal sound location, and then in custom enclosures of various types to see just how it all changes as you move things around.

[lithium 358]

 

 

the vast majority of 6.5's are designed IB no? 

 

car audio drivers are typically designed for IB. other drivers not necessarily. 

 

 

 so you screw them into the door panel, add some deadening if required and call it a day.

    

i really hope you're not lazy enough to just screw the woofer into the door panel without a baffle?  i know shops do this and its so fucking sad. 

 

i know everyone doesn't understand what deadening accomplishes but in a serious install you should never skimp on that either. i really doubt your ability to install a basic pair of components if this is the extent of your understanding. 

 

 

 

on custom installs i am told that you build a pod around ear level for a mid range, put a mid bass down low and then place a tweeter in line with ones ears. that you limit standing waves and avoid symmetry to avoid wave collisions on certain frequencies.

 

again, more rule of thumb bullshit. 

 

 

 

maybe what i should do is pick up a 2X8 for future expansion and buy a good mid range 7 to use with my current tweeters, pick up a horn, silk, and bullet tweet with good specs and swap them out to see how there sound changes. then throw in the 3 way to see just how far off from that base line i fall.

 

no reason at all to use a 7" midbass in an 3 way. any decent 7" that can be used in a 2 way gains nothing from adding a midrange driver to the mix. If you want a strict midbass driver than you should be looking at a 8"+ which would mate well with a 3" fullrange (while also leaving a door open down the road for a 3 way) as I was suggesting before.

 

just to clarify, m5 was discussing why your experience with your home sound system is misleading you into thinking a 3 way is required for good sound. A 2 way with a good 7" and tweeter will blow the fucking doors off your home setup. 

 

And your comment on different types of the tweeters: horn loaded tweeters and bullet tweeters should never be used in a car. there might be some advantages to using other types of tweeter, dome, ribbon, ring radiator, etc. 

 

The problem I see is that if you go with a 3 way you will have no idea how to even evaluate its performance because you lack a reference point. This should be make perfect sense to anyone. walk before you run, print before cursive, algebra before calculus...  

[Randal Johnson 544]

maybe what i should do is pick up a 2X8 for future expansion and buy a good mid range 7 to use with my current tweeters, pick up a horn, silk, and bullet tweet with good specs and swap them out to see how there sound changes. then throw in the 3 way to see just how far off from that base line i fall. id like to try speakers in my factory location, in the optimal sound location, and then in custom enclosures of various types to see just how it all changes as you move things around.

I take it that you have a Dodge Truck ... Thinking Extended Cab ???

If so ... What year model truck ???

We have a guy on our team with a Dodge Truck possibly similar to yours that competes SQ in MECA ...

If I'm not mistaken ... He is running a 2 Way active setup with the midbass drivers in stock location (highly reinforced to prevent vibrations and rattles) and the tweeters up on the A-Pillars ... With a center console sub stage ...

I believe his average scores in Modified class is high 70s to low 80s ... don't know for sure ...

If you like and he will let me ... I will snap some pics of his install and post them for you ...

Now this is not a suggestion on what I think you should do to your truck or anything, but something you might can view and see what someone has done with a truck that is somewhat similar to yours ...

Edited February 27, 2014 by Cablguy184

[///M5 2,833]

the vast majority of 6.5's are designed IB no? so you screw them into the door panel, add some deadening if required and call it a day.

Ouch. I thought you worked at an audio store. That is NOT an installation but a fucking mess. If you do that with ANYTHING it will sound like SHIT. Time for you to stop thinking about drivers and do some research on installing.

on custom installs i am told that you build a pod around ear level for a mid range, put a mid bass down low and then place a tweeter in line with ones ears. that you limit standing waves and avoid symmetry to avoid wave collisions on certain frequencies.

Stop believing the moron that tells you these things. It is absolute horsecrap.

maybe what i should do is pick up a 2X8 for future expansion and buy a good mid range 7 to use with my current tweeters, pick up a horn, silk, and bullet tweet with good specs and swap them out to see how there sound changes. then throw in the 3 way to see just how far off from that base line i fall. id like to try speakers in my factory location, in the optimal sound location, and then in custom enclosures of various types to see just how it all changes as you move things around.

Maybe you should forget the 3 way altogether. You are not capable of it. Not even close. Not sure how many times we have to tell you it is going to sound like shit. Shit, shit, shit, shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit,shit. Get it?

Instead why not buy some processing, some cheap diy drivers and build up a good two way. Figure out how to tune it and what you don't like and then upgrade the drivers appropriately to fulfill YOUR desires. Would be WAY more cost effective and sound WAY fucking better.

[ncc74656 2]

see its only with in the last week or so that ive looked at anything other than a car audio driver in a car. at work it was made very clear to me that only a car audio driver sould be used in an auto install. now having said that i do not blieve that there is any reason why "non car audio drivers" should not be used in auto applications. the more i read about the specs on some of these brands i had never heard of, the more i think that the JL, Focals, hertz, rockford, ect. are more of a name sake and over priced for what they deliever.

At the shop i have seen build logs of custom baffels, after market prefab door pods, sound deadening placed at various locations to aid in the install but i have never had the chance to do any of this myself. In my own truck i have wood baffels and sound deadening but ive never had a customer that was willing to spend the money on such things. people just come in and want speakers screwed into what ever and they want to pay as little as possible.

2 years ago when i installed my sound deadening what i did was covered the ENTIRE cab, floor, back, roof, doors, ect. i realize now that 100% coverage is not needed or even recommended but back then "more is better". It does have the added advantage of water proffing my floor i suppose... in either case ive got a crap load of that in the truck.

the truck is a 99 2500 cummins diesel quad cab long bed.

this summer i hope to see some real installs at either my shop or over in hopkins where they do the majority of custom fab work.

lith: as for adding a 7" in a 3 way, what i was thinking about was buying a 2 way with a 7" and good tweet in addition to the 3 way so i can see and hear both. the types of tweeter you listed however - i dont think i have ever heard but a couple of them, makes me want to buy some of hte ribbons and such to see how they preform.