Welcome to the IHoP

[///M5 2,833]

I guess living where I do is nice because all our beef, pork, and chicken products are local. Shit fresh eggs are .50 a dozen here.

Eggs are free for me.

Yous get fresh picked to? Nothing better.

By my sister in law

[///M5 2,833]

Seriously, wtf???

[ricksi30 923]

Seriously, wtf???

Wow

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Gourmet...oatmeal?

[nem 2,019]

I guess living where I do is nice because all our beef, pork, and chicken products are local. Shit fresh eggs are .50 a dozen here.

Eggs are free for me.

Yous get fresh picked to? Nothing better.

By my sister in law

Any ducks, geese, or ginnys?

[///M5 2,833]

Duck eggs occasionally. Not this year, but my other BIL grew some for meat and will have eggs next year. Yummy.

[dem beats 1,223]

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

I think his argument with gainers is the high carb/sugar content. And I know they whole maltodextrin argument about how it works in the belly, but it is still inconsistent for time of digestion.

Personally I think the guy could use a HUGE boost in insulin from sugar/carbs in general and would see AMAZING growth with how often he works out.

But I do understand the fat being perceived as a healthier option.

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

Let me lay everything out so less speculation can be made.

eat something light in morning.

few hours later I drink 1L water + 30g whey + 30g dextrose

ten minutes later I start my workout, and for the next 1.5hours I drink 1L water + sodium + 60g dextrose

After workout I drink another 1L water + 60g dextrose + 30g whey + sodium

shower

For the next hour I eat carbs + protein

After an hour or so I start drinking whole milk which lasts for the rest of the day, and eat other shit.

Currently I'm getting in approx 3300kcal, and for the last three months it has netted higher strength, but likely still limited due to less muscle mass grown (no substantial weight change, and bf% doesn't seem any different to the eye). In the past when I could drink an entire gallon of whole milk daily without lactose issues I was getting around 4000kcal, and after a month or so the gains were noticeable. So at this point it's simply more kcal I need.

I recognize the use of carbs for refilling muscle glycogen stores, and anabolic response from high insulin levels, but it's not my plan to eat a shit-load of "sugar" to get the rest of the kcal I need.

I could also argue all day long that I don't believe there is anything wrong about eating that much butter in terms of cardiovascular health, but I feel it would be wasted energy so I'll simply shrug it off.

I don't give a shit about "all natural," I just eat what I feel is healthy, and that happens to include butter.

Also fwiw I tested my RMR with an o2->co2 meter: 1600kcal.

What is a sodium shower?

I also don't believe butter will do anything to your heart either. I do however believe that olive oil and other omega rich fats have value MUCH MUCH greater value to brain, heart, and many other organs over saturated fat. Not related to cholesterol at all, but how they interact both with your organs.

[nem 2,019]

Duck eggs occasionally. Not this year, but my other BIL grew some for meat and will have eggs next year. Yummy.

Duck and ginny eggs I like, but the goose eggs are not very good to me. My uncle eats 2 almost everyday for breakfast.

[///M5 2,833]

Easier to drink too

[///M5 2,833]

<- had to look up ginny

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Slather everything you eat in ghee like the Pahalwans do.

[dem beats 1,223]

I'm probably going to regret this, but whatever.

Seth,

I'm going to skip the initial digestion and absorption of lipids as it's not entirely needed. Lipids, cholesterol, and lipid-soluble nutrients end up being packaged into chylomicrons. Chylomicrons travel through the lymphatic system supplying fat, nutrients, and cholesterol to tissue. Excess chylomicrons are picked up by the LDL receptor to the liver. Once in the liver these lipids, cholesterol, and lipid-soluble nutrients are packaged into lipoprotein particles. The shell of the lipoprotein particles is composed of phospolipids and protein. This allows it to carry non-water soluble lipids through the water soluble blood stream. The first type of lipoprotein to leave the liver is VLDL, very low density lipoprotein. VLDL primarily contains triglycerides with a lesser amount of cholesterol and lipid-soluble nutrients. VLDL travels through blood stream supplying fat, nutrients, and cholesterol to tissue alike the chylomicrons. The remnants of the VLDL is primarily cholesterol, and is now considered LDL, low density lipoprotein. The remaining LDL that isn't taken up by cells is now taken back to the liver—whatever LDL that isn't taken up tends to oxidize. Phagocytosis occurs where monocytes begin eating up the oxidized LDL, and this creates foam cells. Over time foam cells accumulate into a fatty streak. Once fatty streak gets large enough it's known as an intermediate lesion continuing to enlarge and accumulate collagen into a fibrous lesion, plaque. As time progresses this plaque can will build up occlusively or nonocclusively. The plaque accumulation toward the lumen would be considered an occlusive lesion (common to cause chest pain, require coronary bypass, etc). Non-occlusive lesions tend to be more unstable, and more likely to rupture causing blood clots and heart attacks.

In simple terms CVD occurs when LDL particles become damaged due to oxidation. So the general belief is that if you keep the quantity of LDL particles floating around low than one's chances for oxidation to occur are lowered, and less likely to have CVD. So eat less fat and less cholesterol for lower LDL. Your doctor tells you you want low LDL, and high HDL.

Anecdotally and scientifically studied there are large groups of humans that eat large amounts of fat, their LDL is high, yet they don't suffer from CVD. Is it the type of fat they eat, their lifestyle, or their “special” genetics that allow for this? I'm willing to bet it's the combination of the first two.

So if it's possible to have high LDL, yet not suffer CVD then why isn't LDL oxidation occurring, and why aren't lesions forming? Further research into LDL shows that all LDL isn't the same, but rather there are subclasses: large sized LDL, and small dense LDL. To my current knowledge the average blood work does not differentiate LDL particle size, for this one needs a VAP test. From what I've researched small dense LDL particles are significantly more prone to oxidation in comparison to large LDL particles.

From everything I've been able to get my hands on saturated fat does increase one's LDL, but it increases the large LDL particles, and not the small dense LDL particles. It's also known that saturated fatty acids in direct comparison to unsaturated fatty acids and trans fatty acids are less prone to oxidation.

So personally I don't feel I'm increasing my risk for CVD by eating lots of butter. If I was drinking canola oil, vegetable oil, palm oil than I would have a different opinion.

I literally just sat down for two hours and typed this out off the top of my head hence no references, so take it as you will.

Perhaps I'm entirely wrong, and will die young, but in either event you should at least know I've spent a significant amount of time researching such things before simply agreeing “yes xxx is bad, and yyy is good.”

If it makes you feel any better if you ask any large health organization or food manufacturer they will agree with your point of view.

I agree with everything you said. They have actually done studies where they fed people cholesterol, not fat, but pure cholesterol, and they didn't have a rise in cholesterol at all on subsequent blood draws. The only fats that are "bad" are when you eat more than you can burn off and get fat (or puke.... or shit slime). Tras fats can also be bad, but it reeally depends on the definition, and then the type. Some classify perfectly fine forms of MCTs as trans fat. Those are probably ok. What isn't ok is when you take a healthy fat, high in the "healthy fats" and heat it, or alter it to a point where it is plasticized(this is the easiest term to understand what happens). Basically making a fat that was once a liquid at a given temperature a solid at that same temp. Those are actually found to be a possible carcinogen, and at bare minimum cause mutations of your fat cells. They are also really really really likely to increase the plaque build up. Maybe by the pathway you mentioned, or maybe during digestion it hits the bloodstream and starts causing shit on it's own. We don't know the pathway as far as I know.

Doesn't change the fact that you would have a better anabolic response and easier time digesting and using carbs as a source of energy. Insulin is king for gaining weight. Muscle or fat. That is all there is to it. The discussion on that subject is completely 100% been hashed out.

[nem 2,019]

<- had to look up ginny

About the size of a chicken hen and good for eating ticks around the farm. The eggs are about the size of a ping pong ball.

[ssh 924]

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

I think his argument with gainers is the high carb/sugar content. And I know they whole maltodextrin argument about how it works in the belly, but it is still inconsistent for time of digestion.

Personally I think the guy could use a HUGE boost in insulin from sugar/carbs in general and would see AMAZING growth with how often he works out.

But I do understand the fat being perceived as a healthier option.

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

Let me lay everything out so less speculation can be made.

eat something light in morning.

few hours later I drink 1L water + 30g whey + 30g dextrose

ten minutes later I start my workout, and for the next 1.5hours I drink 1L water + sodium + 60g dextrose

After workout I drink another 1L water + 60g dextrose + 30g whey + sodium

shower

For the next hour I eat carbs + protein

After an hour or so I start drinking whole milk which lasts for the rest of the day, and eat other shit.

Currently I'm getting in approx 3300kcal, and for the last three months it has netted higher strength, but likely still limited due to less muscle mass grown (no substantial weight change, and bf% doesn't seem any different to the eye). In the past when I could drink an entire gallon of whole milk daily without lactose issues I was getting around 4000kcal, and after a month or so the gains were noticeable. So at this point it's simply more kcal I need.

I recognize the use of carbs for refilling muscle glycogen stores, and anabolic response from high insulin levels, but it's not my plan to eat a shit-load of "sugar" to get the rest of the kcal I need.

I could also argue all day long that I don't believe there is anything wrong about eating that much butter in terms of cardiovascular health, but I feel it would be wasted energy so I'll simply shrug it off.

I don't give a shit about "all natural," I just eat what I feel is healthy, and that happens to include butter.

Also fwiw I tested my RMR with an o2->co2 meter: 1600kcal.

What is a sodium shower?

I also don't believe butter will do anything to your heart either. I do however believe that olive oil and other omega rich fats have value MUCH MUCH greater value to brain, heart, and many other organs over saturated fat. Not related to cholesterol at all, but how they interact both with your organs.

I add sodium to my drinks. Take shower, then eat.

[///M5 2,833]

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

I think his argument with gainers is the high carb/sugar content. And I know they whole maltodextrin argument about how it works in the belly, but it is still inconsistent for time of digestion.

Personally I think the guy could use a HUGE boost in insulin from sugar/carbs in general and would see AMAZING growth with how often he works out.

But I do understand the fat being perceived as a healthier option.

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

Let me lay everything out so less speculation can be made.

eat something light in morning.

few hours later I drink 1L water + 30g whey + 30g dextrose

ten minutes later I start my workout, and for the next 1.5hours I drink 1L water + sodium + 60g dextrose

After workout I drink another 1L water + 60g dextrose + 30g whey + sodium

shower

For the next hour I eat carbs + protein

After an hour or so I start drinking whole milk which lasts for the rest of the day, and eat other shit.

Currently I'm getting in approx 3300kcal, and for the last three months it has netted higher strength, but likely still limited due to less muscle mass grown (no substantial weight change, and bf% doesn't seem any different to the eye). In the past when I could drink an entire gallon of whole milk daily without lactose issues I was getting around 4000kcal, and after a month or so the gains were noticeable. So at this point it's simply more kcal I need.

I recognize the use of carbs for refilling muscle glycogen stores, and anabolic response from high insulin levels, but it's not my plan to eat a shit-load of "sugar" to get the rest of the kcal I need.

I could also argue all day long that I don't believe there is anything wrong about eating that much butter in terms of cardiovascular health, but I feel it would be wasted energy so I'll simply shrug it off.

I don't give a shit about "all natural," I just eat what I feel is healthy, and that happens to include butter.

Also fwiw I tested my RMR with an o2->co2 meter: 1600kcal.

What is a sodium shower?

I also don't believe butter will do anything to your heart either. I do however believe that olive oil and other omega rich fats have value MUCH MUCH greater value to brain, heart, and many other organs over saturated fat. Not related to cholesterol at all, but how they interact both with your organs.

I add sodium to my drinks. Take shower, then eat.

Why not just suck on some chocolate salty balls?

[dem beats 1,223]

Sean will like this....

They have actually done some research and found that overcooking any food can cause it to have a poor effect on your system. The down side is that would include grill marks on a steak or fish, or that awesome black on the neo pizza.

The difference is with trans fat as an ingredient the entire mass of the fat that you consume is a fucked up substance instead of just a smaller than 1% amount of the other foods.

Hence the argument if, you are going to fry something USE ANIMAL FAT WITH A HIGH SMOKING POINT.

[dem beats 1,223]

Chicken is nasty

What?

Nasty birds.

Maybe you can get some healthier ones where you are, but here it is the shittiest food.

We eat a decent amount here in my house unfortunately.

[ssh 924]

I'm probably going to regret this, but whatever.

Seth,

I'm going to skip the initial digestion and absorption of lipids as it's not entirely needed. Lipids, cholesterol, and lipid-soluble nutrients end up being packaged into chylomicrons. Chylomicrons travel through the lymphatic system supplying fat, nutrients, and cholesterol to tissue. Excess chylomicrons are picked up by the LDL receptor to the liver. Once in the liver these lipids, cholesterol, and lipid-soluble nutrients are packaged into lipoprotein particles. The shell of the lipoprotein particles is composed of phospolipids and protein. This allows it to carry non-water soluble lipids through the water soluble blood stream. The first type of lipoprotein to leave the liver is VLDL, very low density lipoprotein. VLDL primarily contains triglycerides with a lesser amount of cholesterol and lipid-soluble nutrients. VLDL travels through blood stream supplying fat, nutrients, and cholesterol to tissue alike the chylomicrons. The remnants of the VLDL is primarily cholesterol, and is now considered LDL, low density lipoprotein. The remaining LDL that isn't taken up by cells is now taken back to the liver—whatever LDL that isn't taken up tends to oxidize. Phagocytosis occurs where monocytes begin eating up the oxidized LDL, and this creates foam cells. Over time foam cells accumulate into a fatty streak. Once fatty streak gets large enough it's known as an intermediate lesion continuing to enlarge and accumulate collagen into a fibrous lesion, plaque. As time progresses this plaque can will build up occlusively or nonocclusively. The plaque accumulation toward the lumen would be considered an occlusive lesion (common to cause chest pain, require coronary bypass, etc). Non-occlusive lesions tend to be more unstable, and more likely to rupture causing blood clots and heart attacks.

In simple terms CVD occurs when LDL particles become damaged due to oxidation. So the general belief is that if you keep the quantity of LDL particles floating around low than one's chances for oxidation to occur are lowered, and less likely to have CVD. So eat less fat and less cholesterol for lower LDL. Your doctor tells you you want low LDL, and high HDL.

Anecdotally and scientifically studied there are large groups of humans that eat large amounts of fat, their LDL is high, yet they don't suffer from CVD. Is it the type of fat they eat, their lifestyle, or their “special” genetics that allow for this? I'm willing to bet it's the combination of the first two.

So if it's possible to have high LDL, yet not suffer CVD then why isn't LDL oxidation occurring, and why aren't lesions forming? Further research into LDL shows that all LDL isn't the same, but rather there are subclasses: large sized LDL, and small dense LDL. To my current knowledge the average blood work does not differentiate LDL particle size, for this one needs a VAP test. From what I've researched small dense LDL particles are significantly more prone to oxidation in comparison to large LDL particles.

From everything I've been able to get my hands on saturated fat does increase one's LDL, but it increases the large LDL particles, and not the small dense LDL particles. It's also known that saturated fatty acids in direct comparison to unsaturated fatty acids and trans fatty acids are less prone to oxidation.

So personally I don't feel I'm increasing my risk for CVD by eating lots of butter. If I was drinking canola oil, vegetable oil, palm oil than I would have a different opinion.

I literally just sat down for two hours and typed this out off the top of my head hence no references, so take it as you will.

Perhaps I'm entirely wrong, and will die young, but in either event you should at least know I've spent a significant amount of time researching such things before simply agreeing “yes xxx is bad, and yyy is good.”

If it makes you feel any better if you ask any large health organization or food manufacturer they will agree with your point of view.

I agree with everything you said. They have actually done studies where they fed people cholesterol, not fat, but pure cholesterol, and they didn't have a rise in cholesterol at all on subsequent blood draws. The only fats that are "bad" are when you eat more than you can burn off and get fat (or puke.... or shit slime). Tras fats can also be bad, but it reeally depends on the definition, and then the type. Some classify perfectly fine forms of MCTs as trans fat. Those are probably ok. What isn't ok is when you take a healthy fat, high in the "healthy fats" and heat it, or alter it to a point where it is plasticized(this is the easiest term to understand what happens). Basically making a fat that was once a liquid at a given temperature a solid at that same temp. Those are actually found to be a possible carcinogen, and at bare minimum cause mutations of your fat cells. They are also really really really likely to increase the plaque build up. Maybe by the pathway you mentioned, or maybe during digestion it hits the bloodstream and starts causing shit on it's own. We don't know the pathway as far as I know.

Doesn't change the fact that you would have a better anabolic response and easier time digesting and using carbs as a source of energy. Insulin is king for gaining weight. Muscle or fat. That is all there is to it. The discussion on that subject is completely 100% been hashed out.

I'm on mobile so I'm not going to write a book, but Im eating carbs after workout, and drinking milk throughout the day. Don't forget protein has a significant effect on insulin. So I'm sure my anabolic response is there. Either way I'm finisHing my workout now, peace yo.

[dem beats 1,223]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

It is a SHIT load of stims. Half your dose and gangster up!

Shit will make you a god I think.

lol

[dem beats 1,223]

Chicken is nasty

What?

go to a chicken farm

I've seen the same with cattle and pork. Free range chicken is an option, and the ones I have used, do indeed taste different. That could all be mental though.

The definition of free range is a missnomer. It means they have X amount of time they are made to be outside per day/week. They can still keep them in a cage and packed in REAL tight. Like 15-20 chickens to a 4'x4' box or so. And IIRC it only means one hour a day.

My wife is taking a class on this now. I never beleived free range was much of anything, but now I know.

Some local "chicken friendly" farms here just god smashed on by the feds for the 3-4th time for cruelty to the chickens. Burning beaks off etc. They however managed to skirt the rules and still call it free range.

and for the record, if someone is calling cruelty to chickens.... it has to be some real deranged chicken fucking, torture type shit.

[dem beats 1,223]

Chicken is nasty

What?

go to a chicken farm

Or an old school hog farm. Jesus fucking christ.

hog > chicken

in most cases, but yes, it used to be waaaaaay worse.

[dem beats 1,223]

And I know they whole maltodextrin argument about how it works in the belly, but it is still inconsistent for time of digestion.

What's the argument? I have some Tapioca Maltodextrin here. Let's you make fun powders which fuck with people when you serve them />

In the sports nutrition world maltodextrin is always jumping from being a sugar to being a complex carb. Chemically it is complex but at times it causes a fast increase in insulin and quick intrance into the blood stream. This makes it act like a simple carb aka sugar.

To me its a nouveau cuisine I am going to confuse your taste bud magic powder. Didn't realize it even had calories or significance. I'm dubious since I don't know how to grow it.

Nothing sinister about it at all. In the sports nutrition and medical nutrition comunity it is a neat substance because, though sweet, it isn't NEARLY as sweet as many sugars. So you can pack in a bajillion grams of it into food(mostly powder intended for drinking) and just have a pleasantly sweet flavor.

Anecdotaly it also helps to smooth out the graininess of a lot of the whey products, and helps to stop clumping as it dissolves like a CHAMP.

It is also dirt cheep.

[dem beats 1,223]

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

I think his argument with gainers is the high carb/sugar content. And I know they whole maltodextrin argument about how it works in the belly, but it is still inconsistent for time of digestion.

Personally I think the guy could use a HUGE boost in insulin from sugar/carbs in general and would see AMAZING growth with how often he works out.

But I do understand the fat being perceived as a healthier option.

Meh, I think the argument is just another reason for people to say their way is better. But what matters is the end result. These companies putting out the gainers are doing research to find out what delivers the quickest and best results. You can use Body Fortress gainers and switch to a well established higher end company like BSN and see a difference in results. I personally like many of the BSN options, and use them fairly regularly if I feel the need.

IMO if the goal is to achieve a certain result, a set goal, there is no reason a good supplement is a bad option for a short term. Get to that set goal, and don't keep raising the bar, then go back to the natural method. I am not saying don't keep raising your personal bar, but set the goal you want to achieve with supplements, then step off and go the original route.

When I get going with my winter routine (bulk) I see far greater results then Stefan is seeing now with a little help from BSN. I can throw on 2-3 pounds in a week at the start with ~3000 calories derived from supps and another 2-2500 from food, then slow down generally after I gain 10-15 pounds. I think ~220 is where my body wants to be, but I generally get up to 225 before I trim down. IMO cutting is really where you need to go more natural. But I have found the best results with a bulk in winter, and a cut in spring. You need to build the mass first, then define it.

Let me lay everything out so less speculation can be made.

eat something light in morning.

few hours later I drink 1L water + 30g whey + 30g dextrose

ten minutes later I start my workout, and for the next 1.5hours I drink 1L water + sodium + 60g dextrose

After workout I drink another 1L water + 60g dextrose + 30g whey + sodium

shower

For the next hour I eat carbs + protein

After an hour or so I start drinking whole milk which lasts for the rest of the day, and eat other shit.

Currently I'm getting in approx 3300kcal, and for the last three months it has netted higher strength, but likely still limited due to less muscle mass grown (no substantial weight change, and bf% doesn't seem any different to the eye). In the past when I could drink an entire gallon of whole milk daily without lactose issues I was getting around 4000kcal, and after a month or so the gains were noticeable. So at this point it's simply more kcal I need.

I recognize the use of carbs for refilling muscle glycogen stores, and anabolic response from high insulin levels, but it's not my plan to eat a shit-load of "sugar" to get the rest of the kcal I need.

I could also argue all day long that I don't believe there is anything wrong about eating that much butter in terms of cardiovascular health, but I feel it would be wasted energy so I'll simply shrug it off.

I don't give a shit about "all natural," I just eat what I feel is healthy, and that happens to include butter.

Also fwiw I tested my RMR with an o2->co2 meter: 1600kcal.

What is a sodium shower?

I also don't believe butter will do anything to your heart either. I do however believe that olive oil and other omega rich fats have value MUCH MUCH greater value to brain, heart, and many other organs over saturated fat. Not related to cholesterol at all, but how they interact both with your organs.

I add sodium to my drinks. Take shower, then eat.

OOOOOOH ROFL.

I have never thought about adding sodium to my food. I eat a SHIT LOAD of sodium though. Like crazy alot compared to most I would bet. I grew up in Asian kitchens. More MSG for me please!

NOMNOMNOM

I never salt my food at the table though and most people don't find what I eat "salty" in flavor.

[dem beats 1,223]

Why not just suck on some chocolate salty balls?

Made a christmas candy by the same name one year!

[///M5 2,833]

Anecdotaly it also helps to smooth out the graininess of a lot of the whey products, and helps to stop clumping as it dissolves like a CHAMP.

That's funny, I find it grainy. Not so used to eating my fats in powder form though. Stefan if you want butter powder I can tell you how to make it *gags*