Welcome to the IHoP

[ssh 924]

Anecdotaly it also helps to smooth out the graininess of a lot of the whey products, and helps to stop clumping as it dissolves like a CHAMP.

That's funny, I find it grainy. Not so used to eating my fats in powder form though. Stefan if you want butter powder I can tell you how to make it *gags*

It's chill.

[dem beats 1,223]

I'm on mobile so I'm not going to write a book, but Im eating carbs after workout, and drinking milk throughout the day. Don't forget protein has a significant effect on insulin. So I'm sure my anabolic response is there. Either way I'm finisHing my workout now, peace yo.

I like you a lot. No homo. Because you have spark and are honest and want to help others. But I am going to break your shit apart here in no kind manner. Hope you know it's because I want you to do better for you. Debating with assholes like me will make you a better person. I am convinced of it.

You didn't read what I wrote at all, or you are taking it more out of context than NBC quoting a Tea party member. You are trying to add callories through fat to gain weight. You have a problem with eating as much fat as you want to get there. So you are going to slowly acclimate your body to SOMETHING IT TOLD YOU NOT TO DO.

Replace the butter or fat you want to eat with dense carbs and I bet you grow like a sprout. And you won't ever get sick from it. Unless you have a reason to have a fear of diabetes.

In general, nothing wrong with that. But with you stated goal of trying to gain muscle..... you could instead skip the fat, eat some noodles and oats, and even, dare I say it, sugar. You would have a BETTER insulin response, and not have to acclimate your body so you could start today and not tomorrow working on getting to your dream.

A while back you said that people just stick to medical info because it has been repeated.... well listen to yourself. "eating butter didn't work, so I will just eat less until I can eat more. And yes I recognize that insulin would help with growth but I already eat a few non nondescript carbs so I am cool."

What's worse is you don't even know how many kcal you take in a day. Your mom cooks for you and you eat what she makes. There is no way unless you weighed the ingredients that you know. And even then there is a 10% difference in total kcal from one chicken breast of the same mass to the next in some cases. Some MUCH more because of water content.

So really you are not using any science behind your diet as you don't have a standard. You don't have an argument for what you are doing as you GOT SICK FROM DOING IT, or at least I missed why this method sounds better to you than eating or drinking a fuck load of carbs.

Finally to put this to rest, I have NO problem with your philosophy. None. Not a bit. I even think the whole getting used to a fuck load of fat thing is interesting and worth investigation. What I don't like is this. In addition to you not having a control, using no scientific method, and you not using mass to measure things, your arguments are circular in an extreme manor. I don't understand why because you are so fucking smart.

****

Facts I am thinking we agree on.

Fat is fine and a dense source of kcal. But it made you sick and you probably spent more kcal heaving than you did on your last wind sprints.

Insulin is the strongest anabolic hormone we are currently aware of.

You want to gain muscle.

When you work out your glycogen is depleated at the time of workout, but continues to drain for hours and hours. Maybe days. We even talked about how the meals the day after intense muscle breakdown may be more important than the immediate post work out refill.

Carbs refill glycogen faster, and fats have a hard time doing this because of the problems they have to go through during liposis.

Carbs produce a more controllable(I will omit preferable because I know that you have some hang up on the whole issue) insulin response.

Carbs can be digested and taken into the blood stream in a greater quantity than fats or proteins over a given length of time.

Carbs have more fiber than the fats you are talking about and will speed digestion allowing for more food intake sooner.

A fuckload of carbs is a fuckload cheeper than a fuckload of fat and WAY easier to drink in many many many forms.

Honestly this isn't a "health" goal but an athletic or aesthetic goal.

***

Now being stronger and heartier and thicker bones aside is a health benefit, but the real immediate goal isn't that is it?

I want to have an real debate with you, and I feel either you are holding back information or you are holding yourself back from the goal because you have something to prove. So tell me, honestly, why would you choose this method? I don't care if you use logos, pathos, or ethos for you argument. Even if it is to prove a point, own up to it. I cannot find your logic here when I drill down, or when I look at it from a really wide angle.

On the surface, you got sick from it and no one else in the industry finds this method to work effectively. I don't think you want to look like those indian wrestlers right? A bit more lean correct? lol. I don't see any culture using this effectively for an athletic purpose so I to me if not even one group along the millions of cultures uses this to get to the goal you want from a broad stroke it doesn't fit.

When we drill down, we don't have a control, we don't have data supporting(or defeating it per say), we don't have established goals, we don't have methodical data that you have taken, it made you sick, it appears more difficult than quaffing a bucket of juice, and it is relatively expencive. So from a cost vs reward vs risk, I am adding it up to be a no go.

Once again, I'm all for "I DO WHAT I WANT!". However if you want to defend you doing what you want, I require a solid argument. It's in my nature to be critical, I want to see you do better for yourself. And that has NOTHING to do with agreeing with me. Just that if you state a goal, and I see a flaw, I'm going to call it out so you can get to your goal faster. Especially in an area where I have such a huge load of data and experience on and can provide you with help. And when you defend what I call you out on I'm going to break it down and make sure your argument makes sense.

[dem beats 1,223]

Anecdotaly it also helps to smooth out the graininess of a lot of the whey products, and helps to stop clumping as it dissolves like a CHAMP.

That's funny, I find it grainy. Not so used to eating my fats in powder form though. Stefan if you want butter powder I can tell you how to make it *gags*

....maltodextrin? It isn't a fat, it's a funky carbohydrate made from the breaking down of starch.

In cuisine is it used as a fat?

[dem beats 1,223]

Hmmmmmm. looked up tapiaoca maltodextrin and it might have some other properties but it looks to be the same starchy powder but with some other interesting benefits.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

<- had to look up ginny

About the size of a chicken hen and good for eating ticks around the farm. The eggs are about the size of a ping pong ball.

And they are godawfully loud and annoying. Makes me just wanna fucking KILL EM. But their eggs, so good.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

open up these vids in about a dozen different tabs...yeah...

[dem beats 1,223]

do them birds taste good?

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I've only had their eggs but yeah, they're probably good

[dem beats 1,223]

almost all animals are yummy.

I want some animal now.

[dem beats 1,223]

Wife is out for the night. I want to go to a restaurant she wouldn't be excited about but I hate going alone and all my friends suck.

And by suck I mean have children or lives. LoL.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Got zapped by 480 today. Still kinda jittery.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Stefan, PM me the details on the Dcons. I don't need them, but could use them in the house.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Got zapped by 480 today. Still kinda jittery.

FUCKING OW.

[sandt38 448]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

I would say crank... cocaine makes you feel good. Crank just cranks you up. But yeah, it is strong. The crash is bad, and I generally crash inside of 45 minutes. But the boost kicks ass.

[Julian 641]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

I would say crank... cocaine makes you feel good. Crank just cranks you up. But yeah, it is strong. The crash is bad, and I generally crash inside of 45 minutes. But the boost kicks ass.

I started off with 1 scoop, and that was way too much... Even after a hard ~2hr work out I couldn't sleep. it made me

nauseous, 1/2 was even too much.

[ssh 924]

I'll get to you're shit later tonight when I'm home and if I'm still awake.

[sandt38 448]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

I would say crank... cocaine makes you feel good. Crank just cranks you up. But yeah, it is strong. The crash is bad, and I generally crash inside of 45 minutes. But the boost kicks ass.

I started off with 1 scoop, and that was way too much... Even after a hard ~2hr work out I couldn't sleep. it made me

nauseous, 1/2 was even too much.

I take 2 - 2 1/2 scoops. 2 hours is too long to be working out. I crash so hard that I feel like sleeping immediately after the workout. It is everything I can do to down my 2 protein shakes and my mass gainer.

[Julian 641]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

I would say crank... cocaine makes you feel good. Crank just cranks you up. But yeah, it is strong. The crash is bad, and I generally crash inside of 45 minutes. But the boost kicks ass.

I started off with 1 scoop, and that was way too much... Even after a hard ~2hr work out I couldn't sleep. it made me

nauseous, 1/2 was even too much.

I take 2 - 2 1/2 scoops. 2 hours is too long to be working out. I crash so hard that I feel like sleeping immediately after the workout. It is everything I can do to down my 2 protein shakes and my mass gainer.

Usually 15-20min running to the gym ~2 miles, then weight lifting, then maybe some circuit training and the run back.

[dem beats 1,223]

Julian there was a study where they had a timeline that showed while working out cortisol and GH begin to rise durring a work out. After about one hours time gh production slows/stops and cortisol begins to rise much much faster.

This is GREATLY affected if you ate carbs or fat before a work out. GH doesn't get secreted if there are those nutrients in floating around for the most part and cortisol is similar but not stopped to such a large degree.

Hiting your sugar/proien drink before your jog home might help a ton.

[dem beats 1,223]

Corisol is a bitch because it raises/effects the body almost logarithmicly or more when the body or mind is stressed past its endorphin and anabilic hormone release stages.

Usually for the working out scenario a dose of sugar after a work out will stop it.

[///M5 2,833]

Anecdotaly it also helps to smooth out the graininess of a lot of the whey products, and helps to stop clumping as it dissolves like a CHAMP.

That's funny, I find it grainy. Not so used to eating my fats in powder form though. Stefan if you want butter powder I can tell you how to make it *gags*

....maltodextrin? It isn't a fat, it's a funky carbohydrate made from the breaking down of starch.

In cuisine is it used as a fat?

not quite "as" a fat, lol

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I also think BSN makes a really solid product. I hate paying for it though.

They made a pre work out booster that made me feel Herculean. It had beta alenine in it though and if it is HQ beta alenine and a healthy dose of it my ass itches like crazy. Some people get tingles down there back.... me I get ultra ass itch.

NOXplode. I love the stuff

That stuff Is fucking gross, it made me feel like I was on cocaine. I would rather go to the gym tired. It made me jittery, nervous, and it made me feel like shit after working out.

I would say crank... cocaine makes you feel good. Crank just cranks you up. But yeah, it is strong. The crash is bad, and I generally crash inside of 45 minutes. But the boost kicks ass.

Eleuthero and caffeine works pretty well for me; no "off the cliff" crash, more of a "gentle rolling slope".

Edited January 11, 2013 by Penguin4x4

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Been wanting to try one of these preformulated preworkout boosters, we'll see

Edited January 11, 2013 by Penguin4x4

[ssh 924]

I'm on mobile so I'm not going to write a book, but Im eating carbs after workout, and drinking milk throughout the day. Don't forget protein has a significant effect on insulin. So I'm sure my anabolic response is there. Either way I'm finisHing my workout now, peace yo.

I like you a lot. No homo. Because you have spark and are honest and want to help others. But I am going to break your shit apart here in no kind manner. Hope you know it's because I want you to do better for you. Debating with assholes like me will make you a better person. I am convinced of it.

You didn't read what I wrote at all, or you are taking it more out of context than NBC quoting a Tea party member. You are trying to add callories through fat to gain weight. You have a problem with eating as much fat as you want to get there. So you are going to slowly acclimate your body to SOMETHING IT TOLD YOU NOT TO DO.

Replace the butter or fat you want to eat with dense carbs and I bet you grow like a sprout. And you won't ever get sick from it. Unless you have a reason to have a fear of diabetes.

In general, nothing wrong with that. But with you stated goal of trying to gain muscle..... you could instead skip the fat, eat some noodles and oats, and even, dare I say it, sugar. You would have a BETTER insulin response, and not have to acclimate your body so you could start today and not tomorrow working on getting to your dream.

A while back you said that people just stick to medical info because it has been repeated.... well listen to yourself. "eating butter didn't work, so I will just eat less until I can eat more. And yes I recognize that insulin would help with growth but I already eat a few non nondescript carbs so I am cool."

What's worse is you don't even know how many kcal you take in a day. Your mom cooks for you and you eat what she makes. There is no way unless you weighed the ingredients that you know. And even then there is a 10% difference in total kcal from one chicken breast of the same mass to the next in some cases. Some MUCH more because of water content.

So really you are not using any science behind your diet as you don't have a standard. You don't have an argument for what you are doing as you GOT SICK FROM DOING IT, or at least I missed why this method sounds better to you than eating or drinking a fuck load of carbs.

Finally to put this to rest, I have NO problem with your philosophy. None. Not a bit. I even think the whole getting used to a fuck load of fat thing is interesting and worth investigation. What I don't like is this. In addition to you not having a control, using no scientific method, and you not using mass to measure things, your arguments are circular in an extreme manor. I don't understand why because you are so fucking smart.

****

Facts I am thinking we agree on.

Fat is fine and a dense source of kcal. But it made you sick and you probably spent more kcal heaving than you did on your last wind sprints.

Insulin is the strongest anabolic hormone we are currently aware of.

You want to gain muscle.

When you work out your glycogen is depleated at the time of workout, but continues to drain for hours and hours. Maybe days. We even talked about how the meals the day after intense muscle breakdown may be more important than the immediate post work out refill.

Carbs refill glycogen faster, and fats have a hard time doing this because of the problems they have to go through during liposis.

Carbs produce a more controllable(I will omit preferable because I know that you have some hang up on the whole issue) insulin response.

Carbs can be digested and taken into the blood stream in a greater quantity than fats or proteins over a given length of time.

Carbs have more fiber than the fats you are talking about and will speed digestion allowing for more food intake sooner.

A fuckload of carbs is a fuckload cheeper than a fuckload of fat and WAY easier to drink in many many many forms.

Honestly this isn't a "health" goal but an athletic or aesthetic goal.

***

Now being stronger and heartier and thicker bones aside is a health benefit, but the real immediate goal isn't that is it?

I want to have an real debate with you, and I feel either you are holding back information or you are holding yourself back from the goal because you have something to prove. So tell me, honestly, why would you choose this method? I don't care if you use logos, pathos, or ethos for you argument. Even if it is to prove a point, own up to it. I cannot find your logic here when I drill down, or when I look at it from a really wide angle.

On the surface, you got sick from it and no one else in the industry finds this method to work effectively. I don't think you want to look like those indian wrestlers right? A bit more lean correct? lol. I don't see any culture using this effectively for an athletic purpose so I to me if not even one group along the millions of cultures uses this to get to the goal you want from a broad stroke it doesn't fit.

When we drill down, we don't have a control, we don't have data supporting(or defeating it per say), we don't have established goals, we don't have methodical data that you have taken, it made you sick, it appears more difficult than quaffing a bucket of juice, and it is relatively expencive. So from a cost vs reward vs risk, I am adding it up to be a no go.

Once again, I'm all for "I DO WHAT I WANT!". However if you want to defend you doing what you want, I require a solid argument. It's in my nature to be critical, I want to see you do better for yourself. And that has NOTHING to do with agreeing with me. Just that if you state a goal, and I see a flaw, I'm going to call it out so you can get to your goal faster. Especially in an area where I have such a huge load of data and experience on and can provide you with help. And when you defend what I call you out on I'm going to break it down and make sure your argument makes sense.

Let me start by saying I actually do know how many kcal I take in. Approx 90% of what I eat I "prepare," and I know EXACTLY how many kcal that is. The rest is what my mother makes at dinner, and I under estimate it, so perhaps I'm off by a few hundred kcal at the end of the day, but I'm dead sure I have at least xxx amount of kcal.

You continue to draw this picture where I don't eat any carbs, attempt to use fat for everything, and have become sick from so much fat.

one gallon whole milk contains 128g fat, or 1152 kcal from fat.

one stick of butter contains 90g fat, or 810kcal from fat.

I have no issues with the fat when drinking a gallon of whole milk, lactose I do have issues with, so I use lactase and or lactose free whole milk.

128g fat (gallon milk) vs 135g fat (1.5stick butter) Do you honestly think I have an issue digesting fat if I can consume 128g from milk, but not 135g from butter? Or rather perhaps I just went overboard when I decided to eat 1.5 sticks of butter? Perhaps I was simply overzealous, and should have eaten less, or given myself more time for digestion by spreading it throughout the day. Perhaps I should test my theory before simply saying fat makes me sick. What sounds more logical to you?

I would have to consume 300g of carbs in order to get the same kcal as I would in 1.5stick butter--that's why I opted for butter, easy to eat, and lots of energy. I'm not going to sit down and drink 300g of carbs, and trying to eat an additional 300g carbs in real food negates my entire purpose as I won't have the appetite for it, where as drinking hot chocolate + butter isn't filling. For what it's worth I drank 0.5stick butter today with my milk, didn't have any issues, and it was fucking easy.

On to the idea that I don't eat enough carbs, and that's my problem:

one gallon whole milk contains 208g carbs, or 832 kcal.

Between my pre, during, and post WO drinks that's 150g carbs, or 600kcal.

Plus a carb meal after the workout, say it was super small 100g, or 400kcal.

That's 1800kcal from carbs alone.

Did I miss something? Something else you'd like to attempt to "rip apart" because so far you haven't proved a damn thing.

Edited January 11, 2013 by stefanhinote

[dem beats 1,223]

Jeez you take this personal. My commentary is on the design of your argument, not the size of your dick or if you are right or wrong. Why are you getting pissed? I am exclusively using your argument to show you why it doesn't make sense to me.

So..... you don't know how much you take in a day because you don't prepare all your meals. That's the reality. Estimate all you want, you admitted to not even knowing what goes into one of the meals recently. So, your 90% statement is a guess at best. Besides my argument for knowing what you eat is moot. If you go by nutrition labels they are only accurate to within 10% or so averaged over many samples. Even when I weighed out every meal for months I quickly found out that the variables in one sample to the next is huge. Sometimes even in raw food. However, at least with raw food you cook yourself you have much much more control. It all added up to squat however as there are more important variables than razor sharp knowledge of every detail you consume. Heck only one vitamin company holds itself to a batch sampling for accuracy every time it whips up a cocktail. I'm sure others do, but I don't know of where they post it. Hence why I find a broad stroke to be not only more helpful but more practical.

When you said you threw up from the butter, I call that you getting sick. I didn't say you developed a disease. I said it's your body telling you something.

Onto the argument of your fat issue. I never once said you didn't get enough carbs. Not even made mention of it. Can you point out where I alluded to that? I did say I think you would see better results if you tried carbs instead because of the hormonal benefits, but again it's a non issue because you don't necessarily believe in that What does not make sense is you are willing to drink fat but not carbs. You said you won't drink the carbs, why? It is massively known that drinking carbs especially sugar increases appetite. It is also really well known that high fat foods are more filling. Are you contesting those facts?

My argument was why fat and not carbs. Especially in the case of you trying to get all of it in one swoop. You argue you can't eat or drink 300 grams of carbs in sitting after you eat food. You proved to yourself that they equal amount of kcal in fat couldn't be consumed in the same sitting either. So you spread it out throughout the day, good idea, but you still didn't once answer why you would choose to eat the fat rather than the carbs.

When you drank a gallon of whole milk sure as shit it had a lot of fat but is also has 192g carbs and 128g protein. And by my research those 2 things helped you a shit load more than the fat in your effort to gain weight. Especially when the limit of carb intake over x amount of time is so much higher than the limit of fat intake over x amount of time.

Lastly, fat takes more energy to digest than carbohydrates, so the 9kcal is not a net of 9kcal. So the direct kcal comparison is dubious at best.