The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio

[EFFENDI 0]

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

^ very good reading.

[Acidburn 10]

sounds like Richard Clark....

[EFFENDI 0]

True, RC and the writer of that article share the same viewpoints on a lot of issues.

I honestly think Richard Clark makes a heck of a lot of sense compared to a lot of other fauxdiophiles.

[mrray13 30]

good bit of reading...one i agree with. and i agree with u isaac, i think RC does indeed make a heck of alot of sense...he's problem is he's brutually honest, he doesn't care who he pisses off with what he says (or how).

i love both his amp challanges and capacitor challanges....i don't believe anyone has every collected on either, have they?

thanks for the link..

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[EFFENDI 0]

You're welcome... I figured everyone here could use a refresher, I've been seeing some questionable advice on a few forums lately.

As far as I know, no one has ever beat the amp challenge.

[ANeonRider 3]

all so true, and all things I have said before at some time.

[EFFENDI 0]

Sure sure, just admit it was a good refresher.

[EFFENDI 0]

his problem is he's brutually honest, he doesn't care who he pisses off with what he says (or how).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ANeonRider 3]

well... I put that link up for discussion on a local car club board and this is one response I got, lol

...true. But as a Home Audio salesman, I would have to say that the article is old and you have to take into consideration the application the consumer is looking to outfit. The article is taking a shot at all salesman in general and I don't think its fair. I take pride in all my sales and I have the belief that whatever I have sold my customer is truly what they want and that its good value. I have the tendency to sell stuff that either I like or stuff that I know works. If you ask me a question in a sincere manner I will answer you in a sincere manner. So in my opinion it truly depends on where you shop and who you know. If you get some schmoe that knows you got money, then he will soak you!

My response:

I don't get your point. All that is discussed in that article has electronic theory supporting it, no matter how old the article is, theory does not change.

If you think this is a shot at salespeople then maybe it is because 95% of salespeople convey these lies to uneducated customers as a way to make sales. I contribute half of the problem with that to commission driven salespeople, and the other half to the lack of education in both electronics and sound dynamics.

[EFFENDI 0]

LOL. I find a lot of the (weak) arguments against these scientifically proven FACTS pretty amusing.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

good read

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Good read, but IMO, all that is subjective as well. MAny people DO hear differences from certain things such as wire or amps. Does this mean they don't exist just because science says so? How can that be determined.

Even with RC's amp challenge, it is set up so he comes out on top. Every little scientific quirk to get the amps to reproduce the signal exactly is there, hence noone will ever beat the challenge. Now, can someone honestly tell me that if they switched a couple different amplifiers out in their system that they may not notice a slight difference in how the sound is reproduced? I think not. Whether it be due to the components, whatever, the human ear and the idividual it is attached to is ultimately the one that will make the decision. No meters, or sensors needed, only our ears.

I agree with it for the most part, but there is ALWAYS an enception to every rule, no matter how much science is behind it.

[Nikuk 1]

all so true, and all things I have said before at some time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with it for the most part, but there is ALWAYS an enception to every rule, no matter how much science is behind it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No matter what science says, a three year old will like one brand of fruit punch better then the other... the atomic structure may be exactly the same - but the way in which it's combined will taste differently to him.

Each will taste different to us as well. Hence, power is power - at the root of it all. But, the extras that the amp comes with is what makes people like it over another.

Sorry, I'll stop now.

-Nick

[Acidburn 10]

im waiting to see what Jim says about the Tube thing

[Tirefryr 1,742]

im waiting to see what Jim says about the Tube thing

I had the pleasure of listening to some a couple weeks ago. They are hybrid amps, but I myself noticed quite a bit of aq different "feeling" in the material when listening to it. I fell in love.

[EFFENDI 0]

^^ Its called distortion.

"There are exceptions to every rule." That is not what this article was written about. It is about scientific fact, and how it dispells common myths in audio.

[mrray13 30]

Each will taste different to us as well. Hence, power is power - at the root of it all. But, the extras that the amp comes with is what makes people like it over another.

Sorry, I'll stop now.

-Nick

power is power..a watt is a watt...and i honestly don't believe a person can tell a difference in them. now, with all the extra's, an amp can indeed be made to sound better, and appear to be a better value for the money.

and ryan, wouldn't u try to set the test up so u wouldn't lose $10k? but in all honesty, the way i read the challange, the amps would be identically gain match and settings all flat. they would be set up so that they put out as close to the same power as can be done. so unless i'm missing somethin, how is that stacking the deck?

i think the article is spot on. while i'll agree there might indeed be an exception, someone with super sensitive ears or whatever, for 99% of the population, that article is spot on.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Tirefryr 1,742]

FIrst of all, the distortion thing, think again. I know what distortion is, there was NO hint of it in this setup. Also, do some reasearch on the amps. They are all well below the perceptible level of distortion, and put simply, the hybrid tubes just don't have anywhere near the distortion figures of a traditional tube amp. They are almost dead on to that of SS amps.

Now, I know this is all about science and what not, but think about it. . . . DO any of us go through all the scientific crap when we pick our equipment? NO. WE are going to do normal reaseacrh, look at pre-specified specs and go from there. All I'm saying is, when we "rate" our systems we go by our ear. IT's all subjective and really.

[EFFENDI 0]

The article should be taken at face value, some of you guys are really getting worked up over this, and I dont understand why. It is what it is. An article that disproves myth, using solid scientifically proven fact. I'm not going to debate whether or not there are exceptions to some, the bottom line is that salesmen and marketers will continue to perpetuate B.S. information, and the only way for any of us to challenge it is to educate ourselves otherwise. That is the only reason I posted it. I personally think there is a lot to be learned from it, but of course I expected some people to argue.

Tirefryr, whether or not its audible, its still distortion. I'm not going to get into the tube vs. solid state. I frankly expected you defaulted to the "its personal prefernece" argument, thats fine, because it is personal preference, and there is nothing wrong with that.

- BUT -

There is something wrong with something else you said.

The truth, is that some people choose products based on cosmetics, some based on output, some based on specifications. Not everyone judges a product by ear, and its wrong of you to say so.

Science, with all respect, Sir, is not "crap". Without science, you wouldnt have any specificationss in the first place. But of course, you choose a product by how it sounds, so specs shouldnt mean a thing to you..or am I wrong to say so?

[EFFENDI 0]

power is power..a watt is a watt...and i honestly don't believe a person can tell a difference in them. now, with all the extra's, an amp can indeed be made to sound better, and appear to be a better value for the money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As mrray13 said, with extras they can be made to sound different, but that is not what the argument is about. Tube amps will sound different than solid state amps, but this is always due to equalization, harmonics, distortion, volume level, or other factors, etc.

A watt is a watt. One watt will not sound different than another without being altered in some other electronic or mechanical process (besdies amplification).

Hence the challenge to prove otherwise.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

The article should be taken at face value, some of you guys are really getting worked up over this, and I dont understand why. It is what it is. An article that disproves myth, using solid scientifically proven fact. I'm not going to debate whether or not there are exceptions to some, the bottom line is that salesmen and marketers will continue to perpetuate B.S. information, and the only way for any of us to challenge it is to educate ourselves otherwise. That is the only reason I posted it. I personally think there is a lot to be learned from it, but of course I expected some people to argue.

Tirefryr, whether or not its audible, its still distortion. I'm not going to get into the tube vs. solid state. I frankly expected you defaulted to the "its personal prefernece" argument, thats fine, because it is personal preference, and there is nothing wrong with that.

- BUT - 

There is something wrong with something else you said.

The truth, is that some people choose products based on cosmetics, some based on output, some based on specifications. Not everyone judges a product by ear, and its wrong of you to say so. If bringing up  generalized arguments makes you feel smarter, then more power to you.

Science, with all respect, Sir, is not "crap". Without science, you wouldnt have any specificationss  in the first place. But of course, you choose a product by how it sounds, so specs shouldnt mean a thing to you..or am I wrong to say so?

I for one am not getting worked up. Just stating I feel it's all subjective in the end.

As for the tube thing, well, taker it as you may, but the fact of the matter is the claims about the HYBRID tube amps and high distortion or the distortion coloring the sound are just untrue. See the specs yourself, as they are quite comparable to any other SS offerings.

As for choices on equipment, I was generalizing that to the people of this forum. Most of us are well-experienced and are only worried about how the performance or best/loudest sound possible. We don't get the normal CA.com questions over here, so I assumed that would be understood. Also, I never said we "judge" our products by ear. Please reread.

Also, do NOT judge me and make ignorant statements please. I never said anything about you or anyone else. I never made anything personal here. I am simply stating my opinion and my feelings. There is no argument here, so don't make one. The thing I like about this place is we have a VARIETY of different views on pretty much every topic here and it's great to see an aspects from every angle.

Ultimately it DOES come down to you ear, feeling, sensation, however you want to describe it. When you sit in your vehicle and get a smile on your face, that's what it is all about. The only point I've been trying to convey.

[EFFENDI 0]

I'll address this...but first I have to ask:

Please explain to me what opinion and feeling you are exactly trying to express. That *what* is subjective? Sound quality? I'm not debating that....

I am absoultely not making a personal attack on you, (Although I do find it interesting someone who once said that they are "thick-skinned" and also said "what people say online doesn't affect me" would feel that way)

All I have done here is explained to you that what you said was fundamentally flawed. Understand that making generalizations about how people choose and determine what sound quality *is* , is just a bad move, and one that you (not you specifically, no personal attacks here!) are likely going to get called on.

.....I know, I'll admit I've made the mistake myself....

If you feel that in the end, it comes down to how something sounds to the human ear, that is your opinion, I don't disagree with you on it. It isn't right or wrong of you to think so.

I personally have purchased almost all my equipment without ever hearing it beforehand. How do I determine sound quality? Well, as you said yourself, by research (Yes, I reread your post buddy).

But everyone has their own methods of research as well, do they not?

Like I said, I am choosing not going to get into the tube/hybrid tube vs. solid state argument

[Supa_c 1]

Dont make me take out my pellet gun

might have to bust some tubes up in this joint

[mrray13 30]

The article should be taken at face value, some of you guys are really getting worked up over this, and I dont understand why. It is what it is. An article that disproves myth, using solid scientifically proven fact. I'm not going to debate whether or not there are exceptions to some, the bottom line is that salesmen and marketers will continue to perpetuate B.S. information, and the only way for any of us to challenge it is to educate ourselves otherwise. That is the only reason I posted it. I personally think there is a lot to be learned from it, but of course I expected some people to argue.

x2...the salesman (or majority of) are hoping the potential customer knows nothing of electronics or what they are selling. in this way, they can push "the magic box" that will eliminate all noise from ur system. for a small fee of course..lol.

most of us here can go into most shops and teach the salesman a thing or two (i'm sure we've all gone into BB and told teh salesguy we want to hit 150db with a $500 budget and keep the system under the back seat of their truck, just for giggles, and the saleguy actually try to sell u something, telling u he knows for a fact it'll do it) but that's what research is for. that's how we 've learned, along with trial and error.

alot of things in audio is subjective, SQ, brand preference, wanted output, yada,yada, yada......but what is constant is the science behind the products we buy. products constantly pushing the envelope of what we want and what we get for our dollar.

and i'm done rambling this morning..way too early...

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[CBFryman 2]

that is all BS man...my monster cables sound so much better than the ones i solder....