t/s specs vs actual sound quality

[ibanender 2]

I have a little experiment I'd like to conduct. I don't wanna see any name calling, trash talking, or otherwise. I just want to see which you feel will sound better, not necessarily louder (but can comment on it) and WHY based solely on paper specs supplied by the manufacturer. I'm talking actual quality overall, what is the better sounding driver. They are all 12" subs. Here are your options, rank them in order best to worst:

Option 1:

RMS power: 500 watts

Coil config: dual 4 ohm

Sensitivity: 88 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 33.6

Qts: 0.47

Vas: 3.119 cu. ft.

Xmax: 10 mm

Mounting depth: 6.73"

Option 2:

RMS power: 1000 watts

Coil config: dual 4

Sensitivity: 96 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 36 hz

Qts: 0.76

Vas: 1.28 cu. ft.

Xmax: 11 mm

Mounting depth: 9.2"

Option 3:

RMS power: 350 watts

Coil config: dual 4

Sensitivity: 87 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 30 hz

Qts: 0.45

Vas: 1.94 cu. ft.

Xmax: 25 mm

Mounting depth: 6.1"

Option 4:

RMS power: 300 watts

Coil config: single 4 ohm

Sensitivity: 86 dB

Fs: 28 hz

Qts: 0.67

Vas: 2.53 cu. ft.

Xmax: 11 mm

Mounting depth: 5.4"

[edouble101 314]

I think your challenge is impossible to answer. Too many unknown variables.

[Impious 1,476]

I have a little experiment I'd like to conduct. I don't wanna see any name calling, trash talking, or otherwise. I just want to see which you feel will sound better, not necessarily louder (but can comment on it) and WHY based solely on paper specs supplied by the manufacturer. I'm talking actual quality overall, what is the better sounding driver. They are all 12" subs. Here are your options, rank them in order best to worst:

The simple answer is that you are confused on the purpose of T/S parameters.

But here, since you did as I asked and started a separate thread, I'll repost and respond to the post I removed from the Sundown thread.

Frequency response graph doesn't take into consideration the enclosure it's in,

T/S parameters take care of that issue, however.

how it's aimed,

A proper FR graph showing 0, 30 and 60 degree axis plots certainly does.

Even then, you can approximate based on cone diameter where beaming will begin to occur and hence where you will begin to see a drop in the off-axis.

or the vehicle it's in.

That has nothing to do with the merits of the driver itself, which is what we are interested in looking at. You are, yet again, confusing separate issues.

but if 10 people say it sounds good and 1 says it sounds bad, I'm gonna put my money on it sounds good.

Unless those 10 people have a different listening preference than you do, and your listening preference coincides with that of the 1 person who thought they sounded bad. Then you would, in turn, think they sound bad.

See the problem with giving too much merit to subjective listening impressions? That's just the tip of the iceberg, however.

You'll learn infinitely more about a driver from objective information than you can from the subjective listening impressions of others. And any one individual's experience with a driver might be clouded or not representative of the true performance of the driver depending on the various factors involved.

You mean I'm an idiot for challenging your thought process?

No, it's completely because of what you type and not why you type it.

I must not understand anything about acoustics to have built championship cars,

It's pretty obvious that you don't. Or if you do, I've yet to see it demonstrated.

which you would understand if you took a step back, got in the shop, and actually built something.

LOL.....nice try.

Experience > theory.

Experience can tell you what you might personally like and dislike. Your experience won't tell me anything about the driver itself, however. Which is where objective measurements become useful. Experience also won't tell you why you are experiencing what you are experiencing. Objective measurements again become very useful.

But if you have a problem with a theory.....by all means, try to prove it wrong. I think you have a great future in acoustics if you can overturn some of the long-standing theories and mathematics. Einstein managed to overturn Newton a century ago regarding the structure of space and time and changed our entire perspective on reality......I suppose now it's your turn to put the world on it's head with the grand knowledge you've garnered from all of this experience you have.

[Impious 1,476]

Or, ibanender, since you want to play games, let me pose some questions to you.

Five people listen to the same set of speakers installed in the same vehicle without any changes to any of the settings. All five agree the speakers sound bad. According to you, since subjective listening impressions are apparently the only thing that matter, this would prove conclusively that the speakers are poor quality, bad sounding speakers, correct?

Five people listen to the same set of speakers installed in five different vehicles with different systems and three of the five agree the speakers sound bad. According to you, since subjective listening impressions are apparently the only thing that matter, this would prove conclusively that the speakers are poor quality, bad sounding speakers, correct?

Five people, including yourself, listen to the same set of speakers installed in the same vehicle without any changes to any of the settings. Four of the five agree that the speakers sound good.....you are the one who thinks they sound bad. Because four of the five think they sound good, you must obviously be wrong, correct?

Now, in addition to answering those three questions, please tell me what actual, useful information we could possibly glean about the speakers themselves from any one of those three situations. Also, what information could we glean from those three scenarios that would allow either any of the listeners or any of the non-listeners to compare the speakers to any other speakers.

Let's also look at another example. I wasn't out in my driveway last fall and I wasn't installing a pair of 3-way components (because, you know, I don't do that sort of thing). When I wasn't finished installing them, I (didn't) listen to them for the first time and think they sounded horrible. They must simply be terrible speakers, correct? I mean, I subjectively thought they sounded bad, therefore they must simply be bad according to you. (I'll wait to answer why this was so until after we get some responses).

[95Honda 486]

^Pretty much agree with this and need to point a few other things out.

The parameters you listed have no bearing on sound quality. At all.

The parameters you need to take into consideration when trying to figure out if a driver will have low distortion are not normally published along with many car audio drivers, with the exception of Le, and in some cases Bl curve. What you really need to know if you are going to determain driver sound quality (low distortion) is a measurement of exactly that, distortion. You will want to see what type of harmonics the driver produces, non-linear behavior and Fr adnormalities. But again, most manufacturers don't publish this data, they normally just tout the features they have that combat this.

Now as far as determaining sound quality from basic T/S parameters as you posted, you will be able to predict the type of response you will get (ripple, group delay, Fr, etc) based on enclosure Q and you will know when the driver should start behaving non-linearly due to linear excursion limits.... But that is about it. And the sound quality of the chosen alignment is also very subjective. In all reality, a flat alignment with minimal ripple often sounds thin to most people, even though it is probably the most accurate alignment the driver will perform in...

So really, nobody can answer your question with your parameters with anything more than heresay.

Oh yeah, I have probably built 300 or so enclosures, "out in the shop"

[ibanender 2]

I think your challenge is impossible to answer. Too many unknown variables.

According to people who believe specs are the answer to everything, those variables don't matter. You get it.

^Pretty much agree with this and need to point a few other things out.

The parameters you listed have no bearing on sound quality. At all.

The parameters you need to take into consideration when trying to figure out if a driver will have low distortion are not normally published along with many car audio drivers, with the exception of Le, and in some cases Bl curve. What you really need to know if you are going to determain driver sound quality (low distortion) is a measurement of exactly that, distortion. You will want to see what type of harmonics the driver produces, non-linear behavior and Fr adnormalities. But again, most manufacturers don't publish this data, they normally just tout the features they have that combat this.

Now as far as determaining sound quality from basic T/S parameters as you posted, you will be able to predict the type of response you will get (ripple, group delay, Fr, etc) based on enclosure Q and you will know when the driver should start behaving non-linearly due to linear excursion limits.... But that is about it. And the sound quality of the chosen alignment is also very subjective. In all reality, a flat alignment with minimal ripple often sounds thin to most people, even though it is probably the most accurate alignment the driver will perform in...

So really, nobody can answer your question with your parameters with anything more than heresay.

Oh yeah, I have probably built 300 or so enclosures, "out in the shop"

While you are correct, there are different aspects that may be an indicator as to how it may sound, you are also correct in that majority of manufactures do not publish this data. So, you have to go off of what IS available. All of those specs are commonly available to compare between drivers.

Again, read the first post, it's quite simple. From the information provided, come to a conclusion, in any application you see fit as long as the application is equal between drivers. If you can not come to a conclusion for one reason or another, don't make excuses, DO NOT POST (this should also further my point that there are too many people on forums that post about things they don't understand or know about).

[ford302redneck 15]

I have a question. It might be stupid, but I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this.

Ok, so I have a graph that's a 100% in the desired bandwidth of the driver in question.

Is it still possible for the driver not being able to sound good?

And visa versa, one that doesn't have a perfect flat response, can it sound perfect?

I understand the subjective part of reviews, and how one can't just relay on it.

*Disclaimer, I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area, so I'm just trying to understand.

[95Honda 486]

I did come to a conclusion, you just didn't realize it. If anyone tries to explain SQ based on the parameters you listed, they are well, wrong.

[95Honda 486]

DO NOT POST (this should also further my point that there are too many people on forums that post about things they don't understand or know about).

I hope this isn't directed at me.....

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I have a little experiment I'd like to conduct. I don't wanna see any name calling, trash talking, or otherwise. I just want to see which you feel will sound better, not necessarily louder (but can comment on it) and WHY based solely on paper specs supplied by the manufacturer. I'm talking actual quality overall, what is the better sounding driver. They are all 12" subs. Here are your options, rank them in order best to worst:

Option 1:

RMS power: 500 watts

Coil config: dual 4 ohm

Sensitivity: 88 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 33.6

Qts: 0.47

Vas: 3.119 cu. ft.

Xmax: 10 mm

Mounting depth: 6.73"

Option 2:

RMS power: 1000 watts

Coil config: dual 4

Sensitivity: 96 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 36 hz

Qts: 0.76

Vas: 1.28 cu. ft.

Xmax: 11 mm

Mounting depth: 9.2"

Option 3:

RMS power: 350 watts

Coil config: dual 4

Sensitivity: 87 dB 1w/1m

Fs: 30 hz

Qts: 0.45

Vas: 1.94 cu. ft.

Xmax: 25 mm

Mounting depth: 6.1"

Option 4:

RMS power: 300 watts

Coil config: single 4 ohm

Sensitivity: 86 dB

Fs: 28 hz

Qts: 0.67

Vas: 2.53 cu. ft.

Xmax: 11 mm

Mounting depth: 5.4"

Simple answer. Whichever one is cheapest.

[shizzzon 461]

yes it's easily possible...

There is human error when building the box comparing it to the "graph" u did in software...

there is also where and how it's fired in the environment.

Different things around the firing area can\will effect the outcome of it.

In a car, the vehicle's enclosed volume will drastically change the environment of the install which will severily alter a flat response IF one existed in an open area.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

DO NOT POST (this should also further my point that there are too many people on forums that post about things they don't understand or know about).

I hope this isn't directed at me.....

It's not. He is the head of the misunderstood, but think they have knowledge because their particular experience blinds them to the purely scientific and objective side group.

[///M5 2,833]

Again, read the first post, it's quite simple. From the information provided, come to a conclusion

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

[ford302redneck 15]

yes it's easily possible...

There is human error when building the box comparing it to the "graph" u did in software...

there is also where and how it's fired in the environment.

Different things around the firing area can\will effect the outcome of it.

In a car, the vehicle's enclosed volume will drastically change the environment of the install which will severily alter a flat response IF one existed in an open area.

I wasn't quiet talking about install dependent. I guess I should of stated that.

I'm talking as a whole.

[shizzzon 461]

ok, well, if u take the install out of the equation.. now u must "ASSUME" that ALL info put into the software (The T/S parameters manually and automated) are 100% correct...

Also, take winISD for example.

Even if every single T/S parameter were right, it's still possible for the software to graph wrong.

Some things are not taken into consideration.

Material used to build box, how it was built, how it's sealed, the sizing of the port(if any), where the port and driver are located, input signal quality, etc...

the short answer is- ANYTHING is possible..

So to ask if u knew u built it right and all T/S parameters are right and you weren't pleased, either something happened or you do not like the taste.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Let's use an analogy. You have two engines, one a large diesel engine with massive torque in a small power band and it does not rev much. You have another engine with not so much torque, but high horsepower and the ability to rev quite high. You put both on a dyno, see the power curves and all the specs on the engine. Now you have OBJECTIVE data. You can use this data to determine what engine will best be suiited for your application. You certainly don't want the high hp, low torque engine towing a heavy load in a heavy vehicle now do you?

It's the same with drivers. Given you know and understand the specs properly, you can use these to find a driver suited for your application. You can also gauge how it will perform.

What you fail to understand is we are not stating you can use the parameters to judge whether or not a speaker will sound good, as that would be subjective. We are simply stating we can use these parameters to gauge how it will perform and what applications it is best suited for. Surely, you could have an ideal driver in an ideal application, with sub-par source material and therefore have a not so pleasant listening experience.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

BTW, I just farted something nasty.

[ford302redneck 15]

Again, read the first post, it's quite simple. From the information provided, come to a conclusion

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

I'll play.

First, Faster at what?

Your example works nicely.

[bassahaulic 155]

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

Well the 300FWD is CLEARLY an import, and with only FWD it's weak at all aspects of driving so he'd wreck in the first few feet. The 500HP MUST be a Muscle car to have those specs, so in a straight line it will murder them all. The 400HP AWD has to be a WRX Sti so it will kick all ass in corners and from the dig.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

Need to give more information. Weight, tires, man or woman drivers? You know the drill.

Please read the noob posting guidelines you agreed to when you signed up for this site.

HaHa, sorry....... Now back to your regular scheduled programing.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Why do so many people think AWD vehicles are superior in the twisties? I can't think of any situation I would rather have an AWD car over a RWD car, especially if I am racing it.

[bassahaulic 155]

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

Need to give more information. Weight, tires, man or woman drivers? You know the drill.

Please read the noob posting guidelines you agreed to when you signed up for this site.

HaHa, sorry....... Now back to your regular scheduled programing.

Which ever has the women driver will have a burnt clutch in the firs 20 feet so that car is out the race. lol

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

Need to give more information. Weight, tires, man or woman drivers? You know the drill.

Please read the noob posting guidelines you agreed to when you signed up for this site.

HaHa, sorry....... Now back to your regular scheduled programing.

Which ever has the women driver will have a burnt clutch in the firs 20 feet so that car is out the race. lol

Sabine> Danica <Ricky Bobby.

[bassahaulic 155]

Easy conclusion. We know you have reading comprehension issues, now we know you can't ask a question right either.

Since we are asking ridiculous questions, here's one for you.

Which vehicle is faster?

A) 500hp, red, rwd

B) 300hp, blue, fwd

C) 400hp, black, awd

And why?

Need to give more information. Weight, tires, man or woman drivers? You know the drill.

Please read the noob posting guidelines you agreed to when you signed up for this site.

HaHa, sorry....... Now back to your regular scheduled programing.

Which ever has the women driver will have a burnt clutch in the firs 20 feet so that car is out the race. lol

Sabine> Danica <Ricky Bobby.

Erica Enders > Most guys. lol

I also agree, a RWD would be my pick for any situation besides launching. I'll just sling the rear end around the corner.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Erica can't turn though, and she's not as hot as Melanie Troxel. I still vote Sabine!