New "SQL" system for a metalhead - Right direction?

[pascalc 0]

I figured the tactile response was missing...

So, can you fit an 8 or not? Where can we put your tweeters? How much install effort and eq'ing are you willing to do?

Oh, btw, the fixed 24dB slopes is a deal breaker for me. There are plenty of better options in processors though. First let's nail down drivers so that we can be sure you get what you need.

Yeah it might be tight but I'm pretty sure an 8" would fit. As for the tweeters, they could either be mounted near their current location or up higher in the panel...of course it depends on the size of the tweeter. Here are some pictures of my current driver installed on the plastic factory "support tower", a shot of the back of my trim panel and a shot of the top of the panel where the tweeters could possibly be mounted between the mirror and my gauge (depends on size again).

As for install efforts, I'm willing to make the effort to fit an 8" and make a custom mount if required. I've never fabricated custom MDF mounts (doesn't look too hard from what I've seen) nor worked with fiberglass but its something I've always thought of trying, I know its a lot of work (well I think from what I've seen) but I'm not scared of trying. As for eq'ing, I'm willing to do as much as required to get the sound I want or as close to it but I don't have access to an oscilloscope or RTA for tuning...except I've got an iPhone 4 and there's an RTA app that some said is worth it...I tried the free version RTA Lite but don't know how accurate the app is...

This is such a nice thread.

OP, you did an excellent job describing what you want.

I don't know you skill set with installing and tuning but I feel sure M5 will hook you up.

I am sure he appreciates the effort on you part thus far. I am going to keep my eyes on this post.

Thanks! I landed on your CarDomain page and saw your custom fiberglass pods for your doors while searching for "Crescendo XST2" on Google images, they look really nice!!

[trod2902 26]

Psychoacoustics are a bitch, the "sound" experience is solely dependent on the recordings being used.

What part of metal is most important to you or most lacking with what you currently have? What do you want the system to do better? Tons of ways to skin any cat, but doing it the way that best suits your needs would be my goal.

Since you used to play in a band and covered some legendary bands, I'm sure you have attended quite a few metal shows as well so you will know what I'm talking about...I've attended quite a few shows both outside and inside, and for me, my most memorable show is seeing Lamb of God headline a few years ago in a small arena. The sound was so LOUD and CLEAN, every bass drum kick and other low note percussions were felt in your chest and seats, the bass guitar shook the entire arena and the vibrations were felt in the floor/seats (you could "feel" that bass guitar string vibrating the arena), the guitars alike and sounded crisp and edgy. Nothing like I ever experienced at other shows, maybe the arena acoustics played a factor, who knows....(and yes seats, no more pits for me since my major motorcycle accident, I'm lucky to have both my legs and be able to walk today!).

Since I have a family now, working full time as a network administrator and required to do OT every second or third weekend so my time nowadays is more precious and I can't attend as many shows as id like but I still make an effort to go see at least a couple of shows a year whenever possible (attending an outdoor two day metal festival this summer, can't wait!!). Essentially, I wanna feel like I'm at a show when playing my system in my car, brings back the memories and keeps me content with this " indescribable need/some kind of adrenaline or something" I have that seems to be fulfilled when attending metal shows. I'm sure you and many metal heads know exactly the feeling I'm describing...

As it stands, I can turn up my system to the highest volume, it gets real loud to the point where you can't even speak with anyone in the cabin as you have to yell for anyone to even notice your talking...at that volume level (max level tuned), the sound is very clear that I want to keep turning it up louder (because it doesn't "feel" loud) so I can feel the instruments bass but the volume is at max! My system lacks the midbass/subbass to feel that thump in my chest and in my seat along with more sub bass to "feel" the bass guitar strings vibrating....

I hope I described as best as I can what I'm looking for! I'm really curious to hear what you have in mind for me...

Lamb of God ftw!

[lithium 358]

I figured the tactile response was missing...

So, can you fit an 8 or not? Where can we put your tweeters? How much install effort and eq'ing are you willing to do?

Oh, btw, the fixed 24dB slopes is a deal breaker for me. There are plenty of better options in processors though. First let's nail down drivers so that we can be sure you get what you need.

Yeah it might be tight but I'm pretty sure an 8" would fit. As for the tweeters, they could either be mounted near their current location or up higher in the panel...of course it depends on the size of the tweeter. Here are some pictures of my current driver installed on the plastic factory "support tower", a shot of the back of my trim panel and a shot of the top of the panel where the tweeters could possibly be mounted between the mirror and my gauge (depends on size again).

As for install efforts, I'm willing to make the effort to fit an 8" and make a custom mount if required. I've never fabricated custom MDF mounts (doesn't look too hard from what I've seen) nor worked with fiberglass but its something I've always thought of trying, I know its a lot of work (well I think from what I've seen) but I'm not scared of trying. As for eq'ing, I'm willing to do as much as required to get the sound I want or as close to it but I don't have access to an oscilloscope or RTA for tuning...except I've got an iPhone 4 and there's an RTA app that some said is worth it...I tried the free version RTA Lite but don't know how accurate the app is...

This is such a nice thread.

OP, you did an excellent job describing what you want.

I don't know you skill set with installing and tuning but I feel sure M5 will hook you up.

I am sure he appreciates the effort on you part thus far. I am going to keep my eyes on this post.

Thanks! I landed on your CarDomain page and saw your custom fiberglass pods for your doors while searching for "Crescendo XST2" on Google images, they look really nice!!

looks like you have the width for an 8" but what sean will probably suggest will be rather deep (4"+ possibly). so pull the mid, lower the window all the way down, and take some depth measurement. try to get an idea of how much space between the window (if it goes down the far in the door) and the door panel. if you dont mind cutting the door panel up then this isn't a problem.

dont worry about the RTA or anything like that. its practically useless in car audio. in most cars you could take a measurement at one spot and then move the mic 6 inches and get something completely different. The goal is to reproduce the material in a way that sounds right too you.

we can give you a good step by step guide to tuning when your ready.

another question, how are the A pillars? do they have air bags behind them?

kicks might work too (for tweeters), but we're getting alittle a head of our selves.

Edited April 15, 2012 by lithium

[KyleBrown 121]

ok... I'm not going to read all that's been posted lol.

Everyone will say how a sub performs is all based on the enclosure, which is true to a certain extent...

For a more metal musical type geared setup I would pick a driver with a tight suspension setup. It will give it the ability to quickly respond to the tones given to it, and the ability to decelerate for accurate response. I would suggest an enclosure tuned in the high 30s, 38ish with an f3 of 32. You still want to be able to pick up the low end extension of the basssss geetar

A strong mid bass up front will bring your sub stage further forward. You need a good xover correlation for everything to play in harmony.

kudos for sure on the research you've done thus far

[pascalc 0]

looks like you have the width for an 8" but what sean will probably suggest will be rather deep (4"+ possibly). so pull the mid, lower the window all the way down, and take some depth measurement. try to get an idea of how much space between the window (if it goes down the far in the door) and the door panel. if you dont mind cutting the door panel up then this isn't a problem.

dont worry about the RTA or anything like that. its practically useless in car audio. in most cars you could take a measurement at one spot and then move the mic 6 inches and get something completely different. The goal is to reproduce the material in a way that sounds right too you.

we can give you a good step by step guide to tuning when your ready.

another question, how are the A pillars? do they have air bags behind them?

kicks might work too (for tweeters), but we're getting alittle a head of our selves.

lithium, Ok, I will have to take the panel off again to measure the exact depth I have, I will do that this week. As for cutting up the trim panel (and maybe even part of the door), I was ready to do that to fit an 8 inch so that's no problem at all.

Also, my A pillars do not have any air bags.

armykyle1, Thanks!

[///M5 2,833]

Others have nailed it so far. Two limitations left to battle.

How low can the tweeter play and how deep can the 8" driver be. The lower the tweeter plays the more freedom we have with the mid. I'm also curious if you are a bass guitar head or if its the rest of the band that gets you going.

[cobra93 47]

I skimmed back through the thread, but didn't see what car this is going in.

From the pics you've posted everything looks clean so I'll assume the car is pretty new.

If not and your going to take the time to deaden and mlv the car, check your door seals.

Allot of noise will enter the cabin and I never see this mentioned.

[ssh 924]

I skimmed back through the thread, but didn't see what car this is going in.

From the pics you've posted everything looks clean so I'll assume the car is pretty new.

If not and your going to take the time to deaden and mlv the car, check your door seals.

Allot of noise will enter the cabin and I never see this mentioned.

08 Pontiac Grand Prix

[pascalc 0]

Others have nailed it so far. Two limitations left to battle.

How low can the tweeter play and how deep can the 8" driver be. The lower the tweeter plays the more freedom we have with the mid. I'm also curious if you are a bass guitar head or if its the rest of the band that gets you going.

Its pretty much the entire band (the guitars and drums together) that I enjoy but If I had to pick an instrument id say drums, then guitars.

For tweeters, I looked at some of the small scan speak tweeters today, they seemed good and people praised them and they could be crossed around ~2.5kHz, they are pricey, ever tried them?

Earlier tonight I measured the clearance from the window bracket to inside of panel, 4 inches of clearance (to inside of panel) if I allow 1/8" of clearance from the window bracket. The actual driver can be a little deeper (up to about ~5 inches, to stay about flush with door panel).

...

If not and your going to take the time to deaden and mlv the car, check your door seals.

Allot of noise will enter the cabin and I never see this mentioned.

Thanks, good to know. I check my seals after each winter and they are good! I will deaden the car with cld and install ccf and mlv, just waiting on Don from SDS to come back with the shipping quote so I can place my order.

Edited April 17, 2012 by pascalc

[///M5 2,833]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

[Shogen 325]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

Tweeter to play lower that 2.5k? Really?? Don't know of any but curious to hear about some.

[///M5 2,833]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

Tweeter to play lower that 2.5k? Really?? Don't know of any but curious to hear about some.

ROFL,

Dayton RS28, Seas 27 TDC (and all variants that aren’t neo), Seas 29, Seas Excel T25, Scan ArcCirc, Scan Illuminator, Scan Revelator, Vifa XT25, Usher 9950, Morel Supremo, Morel MDT22/29/30/33, Scan Speak Discovery

If it has to be small format, Scan D2904

And those are just a few off the top of my head. There are a TON more.

[onebadmonte 235]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

Tweeter to play lower that 2.5k? Really?? Don't know of any but curious to hear about some.

Some of the Morels do it. The supremo comes to mind. One that've been looking at is the new LD25X from CSS.

http://www.stereocla...-ld25x-tweeter/

I don't know if either one of these will be loud enough for this app though. :

Ninja'd by M5

Edited April 17, 2012 by onebadmonte

[ssh 924]

I have the scanspeak discovery D2608/9130 / peerless hds tweeters, and they work just dandy to 2500hz.

[Shogen 325]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

Tweeter to play lower that 2.5k? Really?? Don't know of any but curious to hear about some.

ROFL,

Dayton RS28, Seas 27 TDC (and all variants that aren’t neo), Seas 29, Seas Excel T25, Scan ArcCirc, Scan Illuminator, Scan Revelator, Vifa XT25, Usher 9950, Morel Supremo, Morel MDT22/29/30/33, Scan Speak Discovery

If it has to be small format, Scan D2904

And those are just a few off the top of my head. There are a TON more.

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

Tweeter to play lower that 2.5k? Really?? Don't know of any but curious to hear about some.

Some of the Morels do it. The supremo comes to mind. One that've been looking at is the new LD25X from CSS.

http://www.stereocla...-ld25x-tweeter/

I don't know if either one of these will be loud enough for this app though. :

Ninja'd by M5

I have the scanspeak discovery D2608/9130 / peerless hds tweeters, and they work just dandy to 2500hz.

Just honestly didn't know of any. Thanks for the examples though.

[///M5 2,833]

I only laughed because out of the quality tweeters the answer is truly that most of them will play well below 2.5kHz WHEN the crossover is implemented correctly.

[Shogen 325]

I only laughed because out of the quality tweeters the answer is truly that most of them will play well below 2.5kHz WHEN the crossover is implemented correctly.

Oh ok... Well then mister, ha ha ha.. I had my LPG tweets crossed at 2.5 with a 2-way crossover design but I don't think the slope was steep enough, now I get screeching from one tweet at higher volumes even crossed at 4k now going passive... ... That's why I wanted to know... Thanks again.. and the passive slope is set at 24db now ... You live in learn, I'm assuming I blew it...

[///M5 2,833]

I only laughed because out of the quality tweeters the answer is truly that most of them will play well below 2.5kHz WHEN the crossover is implemented correctly.

Oh ok... Well then mister, ha ha ha.. I had my LPG tweets crossed at 2.5 with a 2-way crossover design but I don't think the slope was steep enough, now I get screeching from one tweet at higher volumes even crossed at 4k now going passive... ... That's why I wanted to know... Thanks again.. and the passive slope is set at 24db now ... You live in learn, I'm assuming I blew it...

The LPG is a small format tweeter. 4k is about right. It's utilization and development goals are completely different than most tweeters. It was designed for small format mounting and good off axis response without losing high end sparkle. It is absolutely terrible to use with a mid that won't play high. It is much more akin to a 3/4" tweeter in response and characteristics than a 1"

This is exactly why the details of mounting characteristics and locations are important before recommending anything. There is no one stop solution for everyone.

[Shogen 325]

I only laughed because out of the quality tweeters the answer is truly that most of them will play well below 2.5kHz WHEN the crossover is implemented correctly.

Oh ok... Well then mister, ha ha ha.. I had my LPG tweets crossed at 2.5 with a 2-way crossover design but I don't think the slope was steep enough, now I get screeching from one tweet at higher volumes even crossed at 4k now going passive... ... That's why I wanted to know... Thanks again.. and the passive slope is set at 24db now ... You live in learn, I'm assuming I blew it...

The LPG is a small format tweeter. 4k is about right. It's utilization and development goals are completely different than most tweeters. It was designed for small format mounting and good off axis response without losing high end sparkle. It is absolutely terrible to use with a mid that won't play high. It is much more akin to a 3/4" tweeter in response and characteristics than a 1"

This is exactly why the details of mounting characteristics and locations are important before recommending anything. There is no one stop solution for everyone.

Location is great on the dash, at least to me with that tweet... And it does "sound better" crossed at 4k but I've damaged it I believe when I first installed it... May just pick up another one and put it in there instead of hunting for a new set.. Plus what I have in the doors plays fine to 5-6k.... lol

Enough clogging of my comments.. Waiting for OP to come back...

[///M5 2,833]

Just FYI, 5-6k means you mid is beaming like crazy. LPG on the dash isn't where I'd use it. Off axis response is so strong your reflections are going to be even more muddled. Everything is a compromise though and

exactly why a low playing tweeter is required for an 8" as it'll beam beyond 1k. Some is a compromise that a 2 way requires, but minimizing it and making sure that you can play with other settings to come up with a good sounding set is the goal.

[pascalc 0]

If you go with an 8, you'll need a tweeter that plays lower than 2.5kHz. Where are the locations that we can use for a tweeter?

*figured you'd say drums and guitar which is a good thing for gaining the impact you desire

If I can keep the tweeter in the same location as it is now that would be ideal (since I wouldn't have to fabricate a pod for it). If its better to relocate it instead of the factory location, I could mount it at the top of the panel just above my door controls between my mirror and my gauge (depends on tweeter size). Alternatively, maybe I could mount it in the A pillar.

Here is the factory location

ROFL,

Dayton RS28, Seas 27 TDC (and all variants that aren’t neo), Seas 29, Seas Excel T25, Scan ArcCirc, Scan Illuminator, Scan Revelator, Vifa XT25, Usher 9950, Morel Supremo, Morel MDT22/29/30/33, Scan Speak Discovery

If it has to be small format, Scan D2904

And those are just a few off the top of my head. There are a TON more.

I will check out those tweeters you mentioned, thanks!

[///M5 2,833]

That tweeter list wasn't a rec'd list for you, just ones with a lower Fs allowing them to play low.

You can keep the tweeter in the stock location. You are going to give up stage height as well as some highs. They will be easier to blend though.

At the same time, at least down there you can fit a 3" tweeter which you'll need to do if you look at my list Other than the Scan D2904 they are all larger format drivers. For your application I'd lean that way though. My guess is that you prefer a metal cone, but I may be off. Do you have a preference?

I forget now as well, but do you currently have amplifiers? If so, what power at what impedance do they put out. Also curious on the processing. If it's all undecided that's okay to.

[pascalc 0]

That tweeter list wasn't a rec'd list for you, just ones with a lower Fs allowing them to play low.

You can keep the tweeter in the stock location. You are going to give up stage height as well as some highs. They will be easier to blend though.

At the same time, at least down there you can fit a 3" tweeter which you'll need to do if you look at my list Other than the Scan D2904 they are all larger format drivers. For your application I'd lean that way though. My guess is that you prefer a metal cone, but I may be off. Do you have a preference?

I forget now as well, but do you currently have amplifiers? If so, what power at what impedance do they put out. Also curious on the processing. If it's all undecided that's okay to.

Ok, im willing to give up stage height and some high's to leave the tweeter around the same location, I can always relocate them later on. Either if I feel like I want the stage height or if I ever go with a 3 way setup in the future, I can put a ~3" mid in the tweeter location.

I looked at most if not all of the tweeters you mentionned, I looked mostly at the Fs, the frequency response graph, SPL and power handling (wasn't sure on what to look for exactly asides those to make a descision). To me they all seemed very good so its a tough choice, but if im not mistaken, the Scan D2904 you mentioned (I picked the D2904/980000 out of the other D2904 models). It seemed to be one of the only ones that had an almost flat response even well below 1kHz, at 200$ each they are pricey but seem worth it for my application. Is this a good choice? As for preference for the cone material, I have none really, my Type-X just came as a metal cone but I wasn't looking strictly for a metal cone driver. I actually did some reading on this subject last night and found varying opinions, without hearing the same driver with different cone materials, I wouldn't know what to listen for.

Currently for amps, I have only a single Alpine PDX-5 and according to the Alpine specs, it does 4 x 75W RMS @ 4 ohm + 1 x 300W RMS @ 2 or 4 ohm, my birth sheet claimed 4 x 97W and 1 x 357W @ 14.4V. Although as part of my plan's, I wanted to buy two new amps, one for the cabin speakers (which will now be my front stage only) and one for the sub stage and my PDX-5 was to be transferred to my girl's Altima. I looked at the Alpine PDX line of amps for my new amps because of their small size and ability to give same power in 2 or 4 ohm. But I noticed that the Crescendo Audio amps were added to the store this morning, I looked at the BC2000D for my sub stage and the C1100.4 for my front stage. Both of those amps together are 800$ which is almost half the price of an Alpine PDX-F4 and PDX-M12 and they put out almost double the power, the only drawback is that they are much larger amps but I could have the room If I build a proper rack for them. Until I nail down tweeters and woofers, im still undecided for the new amps...

As for processing, still undecided on that, once we nail down the tweeter and woofer, then I'd imagine we will be in a better position to pick a DSP unit. On a side note, I sent an email to Don @ SDS on Friday with the materials I would require but have yet to hear back from him. Does he tend to respond quickly or is he really busy and takes a few days to respond? Maybe he just didn't get my email either, I should probably send him another email tonight...

[Shogen 325]

That tweeter list wasn't a rec'd list for you, just ones with a lower Fs allowing them to play low. You can keep the tweeter in the stock location. You are going to give up stage height as well as some highs. They will be easier to blend though. At the same time, at least down there you can fit a 3" tweeter which you'll need to do if you look at my list Other than the Scan D2904 they are all larger format drivers. For your application I'd lean that way though. My guess is that you prefer a metal cone, but I may be off. Do you have a preference? I forget now as well, but do you currently have amplifiers? If so, what power at what impedance do they put out. Also curious on the processing. If it's all undecided that's okay to.

Ok, im willing to give up stage height and some high's to leave the tweeter around the same location, I can always relocate them later on. Either if I feel like I want the stage height or if I ever go with a 3 way setup in the future, I can put a ~3" mid in the tweeter location. I looked at most if not all of the tweeters you mentionned, I looked mostly at the Fs, the frequency response graph, SPL and power handling (wasn't sure on what to look for exactly asides those to make a descision). To me they all seemed very good so its a tough choice, but if im not mistaken, the Scan D2904 you mentioned (I picked the D2904/980000 out of the other D2904 models). It seemed to be one of the only ones that had an almost flat response even well below 1kHz, at 200$ each they are pricey but seem worth it for my application. Is this a good choice? As for preference for the cone material, I have none really, my Type-X just came as a metal cone but I wasn't looking strictly for a metal cone driver. I actually did some reading on this subject last night and found varying opinions, without hearing the same driver with different cone materials, I wouldn't know what to listen for. Currently for amps, I have only a single Alpine PDX-5 and according to the Alpine specs, it does 4 x 75W RMS @ 4 ohm + 1 x 300W RMS @ 2 or 4 ohm, my birth sheet claimed 4 x 97W and 1 x 357W @ 14.4V. Although as part of my plan's, I wanted to buy two new amps, one for the cabin speakers (which will now be my front stage only) and one for the sub stage and my PDX-5 was to be transferred to my girl's Altima. I looked at the Alpine PDX line of amps for my new amps because of their small size and ability to give same power in 2 or 4 ohm. But I noticed that the Crescendo Audio amps were added to the store this morning, I looked at the BC2000D for my sub stage and the C1100.4 for my front stage. Both of those amps together are 800$ which is almost half the price of an Alpine PDX-F4 and PDX-M12 and they put out almost double the power, the only drawback is that they are much larger amps but I could have the room If I build a proper rack for them. Until I nail down tweeters and woofers, im still undecided for the new amps... As for processing, still undecided on that, once we nail down the tweeter and woofer, then I'd imagine we will be in a better position to pick a DSP unit. On a side note, I sent an email to Don @ SDS on Friday with the materials I would require but have yet to hear back from him. Does he tend to respond quickly or is he really busy and takes a few days to respond? Maybe he just didn't get my email either, I should probably send him another email tonight...

Well thought out... Don usually is pretty quick, I'd just forward the email again and just mentioned you weren't sure if he received that email. You could also create a thread in the Sound Deadening section.

[lithium 358]

if your worried about size the Zed audio amps might be a better choice (or similar class D amps).

precision power p900.4 looks like a good option if you dont want to spend so much on amps. i see its out of stock on a few sites so perhaps a pair of the 2 channel p600.2's. then what ever sub amp you like.

a certain forum member is selling some very nice black jl amps in the f/s section as well.

Don is pretty busy guy, perhaps he missed your email or he is very behind. i would resend it. i've made a few purchases with him, excellent service!

edit:

parts express has a return option that will allow you to send back the drivers you dont like if they show no signs of mounting, etc. So it may be best, once you have a few options selected, to test them out.

Edited April 18, 2012 by lithium