dd-1 or scope???

[codester 48]

Your over thinking it.

Neither are going to be helpful.

All music is all recorded at different levels, with varying dynamics, so inevitably some of it will be quieter or louder than others at the same volume setting on the head-unit, so you'll be finding yourself raising the volume or lowering it by a few notches for max listening. Correct?

By that same token, think of what either the dd-1 or the o-scope is doing. Measuring some distortion at some reference level. Some reference level that is different than your music. So you could play it safe, and use a higher level, but then short change yourself on output, or do the opposite.

So why bother with either? Use your ears, and listen for audible distortion. Once that occurs, turn it down some.

Then use common sense when playing various music, as song A may sound fine at volume 21, but song B distorts at volume 19.

This is the most helpful post ive read on the DD-1, I was dumb and blew the money on one. Its got some uses but not many because music also has more distortion than a sine wave. I can set my gains with the DD1 on sine waves but as soon as I put on music to check it, its showing distortion. Only really thing ive liked it for is for testing songs to see which have a lot of inaudible distortion. Also makes you look more professional when you pull out it to tune someone's system. Although I just tune it by ear any ways.

It can also show one's ignorance.

The thing is most people that are hiring someone to do an install are ignorant, not saying you should spout out but when you don't work at a shop and they want to know they are in good hands it always helps to have something to show that at least looks professional and makes them feel better about leaving their vehicle with you.

Your over thinking it.

Neither are going to be helpful.

All music is all recorded at different levels, with varying dynamics, so inevitably some of it will be quieter or louder than others at the same volume setting on the head-unit, so you'll be finding yourself raising the volume or lowering it by a few notches for max listening. Correct?

By that same token, think of what either the dd-1 or the o-scope is doing. Measuring some distortion at some reference level. Some reference level that is different than your music. So you could play it safe, and use a higher level, but then short change yourself on output, or do the opposite.

So why bother with either? Use your ears, and listen for audible distortion. Once that occurs, turn it down some.

Then use common sense when playing various music, as song A may sound fine at volume 21, but song B distorts at volume 19.

This is the most helpful post ive read on the DD-1, I was dumb and blew the money on one. Its got some uses but not many because music also has more distortion than a sine wave. I can set my gains with the DD1 on sine waves but as soon as I put on music to check it, its showing distortion. Only really thing ive liked it for is for testing songs to see which have a lot of inaudible distortion. Also makes you look more professional when you pull out it to tune someone's system. Although I just tune it by ear any ways.

It can also show one's ignorance.

The thing is most people that are hiring someone to do an install are ignorant, not saying you should spout out but when you don't work at a shop and they want to know they are in good hands it always helps to have something to show that at least looks professional and makes them feel better about leaving their vehicle with you.

If they ask about something give them an explanation, plain and simple.

Ya that's how I like to be treated. No BS just facts

[ricksi30 923]

Eyes, ears, and nose. Those are all you need to set your gain, and in most cases we have those already.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Stefan, you worded it so well in your first couple of posts.

[shizzzon 461]

Eyes, ears, and nose. Those are all you need to set your gain, and in most cases we have those already.

Sometimes i use my tongue but that's on the really extreme setups.

[///M5 2,833]

Your over thinking it.

Neither are going to be helpful.

All music is all recorded at different levels, with varying dynamics, so inevitably some of it will be quieter or louder than others at the same volume setting on the head-unit, so you'll be finding yourself raising the volume or lowering it by a few notches for max listening. Correct?

By that same token, think of what either the dd-1 or the o-scope is doing. Measuring some distortion at some reference level. Some reference level that is different than your music. So you could play it safe, and use a higher level, but then short change yourself on output, or do the opposite.

So why bother with either? Use your ears, and listen for audible distortion. Once that occurs, turn it down some.

Then use common sense when playing various music, as song A may sound fine at volume 21, but song B distorts at volume 19.

This is the most helpful post ive read on the DD-1, I was dumb and blew the money on one. Its got some uses but not many because music also has more distortion than a sine wave. I can set my gains with the DD1 on sine waves but as soon as I put on music to check it, its showing distortion. Only really thing ive liked it for is for testing songs to see which have a lot of inaudible distortion. Also makes you look more professional when you pull out it to tune someone's system. Although I just tune it by ear any ways.

Actually doesn't work for that either. The algorithm shows any non-excitation frequency as distortion since it isn't truly even measuring THD. As for the other uses you think it has, I am interested but I doubt you'll like my retort.

OK I understand, Least it looks good in my toolbox, and no M5 I respect your knowledge and have learned a great deal from reading your posts. Would love some of your knowledge on front stages for my build.

Glad I can help the learning. As for the front stage, just make a thread

As for the looks good in your toolbox, well it'd look better if you sold it and had some cash. I'm sure some SMD boneriffic follower will gladly buy it from you.

I am still interested in what other things you've been encouraged to use it for as good uses. Since this thread will be helpful to others confused by the misconceptions laid out on SMD I'd gladly diffuse those uses. At the same time, if you had a valid one I'd also embrace it. Surely keep them in the third person as my goal is not at all to call you out, but only to help others perceive the real reality in how they would waste their money if they bought it.

[adrenalinejunki87 0]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

[lithium 358]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

no, not useful at all. the reason why has already been explained but if you dont understand feel free to ask.

edit: it was already explained, read the tread

Edited October 13, 2012 by lithium

[Impious 1,476]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

Stop, just stop.

[Kangaroux 47]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

Stop, just stop.

He's not wrong. However, he SHOULD say at a certain frequency. No method of setting gains can account for a range of frequencies, especially not when you want to get the maximum out of your amp. It's not a problem if you're talking about one frequency, though. Everything stays consistent.

[ricksi30 923]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

Stop, just stop.

He's not wrong. However, he SHOULD say at a certain frequency. No method of setting gains can account for a range of frequencies, especially not when you want to get the maximum out of your amp. It's not a problem if you're talking about one frequency, though. Everything stays consistent.

So you would have to play tones recorded at the same level and frequency that you used to set it? It is not a useful tool period.

[Kangaroux 47]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

Stop, just stop.

He's not wrong. However, he SHOULD say at a certain frequency. No method of setting gains can account for a range of frequencies, especially not when you want to get the maximum out of your amp. It's not a problem if you're talking about one frequency, though. Everything stays consistent.

So you would have to play tones recorded at the same level and frequency that you used to set it? It is not a useful tool period.

You don't get it...the tool has its uses when used for the correct purpose. Some people seem to think that purpose is setting your gain at a certain frequency and magically all of the other frequencies will be the same which isn't true. If you need clean power at a certain frequency (competing with very high power levels where clean power is a must) then it has its uses...but that's really all it can be used for. As for finding the clipping point of your headunit, while it may be different for every frequency, it at least gives you a reference point. All of this is dependent on what volume tone you use as well...you will get much more consistent results using a -0dB test tone rather than a -3dB. This is where you run into problems with music and the fact that its dynamic, and some songs will clip and some won't, which is why -0dB works well since no songs are that loud to begin with (and if they are, you should know right off the bat that it is and shouldn't be playing it on your system in the first place)

[pmureika 31]

There are better ways to spend the money on the sound system!!!

[Impious 1,476]

You don't get it...the tool has its uses when used for the correct purpose.

There is a list of things it could be used for. That isn't the issue. The bigger issue is do you need to spend $150 on a tool in order to do those things? And you don't.

If you need clean power at a certain frequency (competing with very high power levels where clean power is a must) then it has its uses

Competition is one area where it has absolutely no use. IIRC even SMD and Tony have admitted this. To suggest that every competitor uses or needs to know where 1% THD is from their amplifiers is absolute nonsense. It's about what gives best results on meters. Some competitors will intentionally run the amplifier into slight clipping to increase power output. They don't need to know where 1% THD is, for their purposes distortion is a meaningless number; all they care about is SPL on a meter. If higher clipping allows for more power output and higher numbers on a meter, then that's all they care about. And they will test and test and test then test some more to figure out what gives the desired results; they would not pay any attention to something as useless as the DD-1 to tell them where that level is.

As for finding the clipping point of your headunit, while it may be different for every frequency, it at least gives you a reference point.

Why is this vital information? I can tell you I've owned dozens of headunits over the past 15 years, and installed dozens more in friend's vehicles/etc, and have never once checked to find the clipping point of the outputs.

All of this is dependent on what volume tone you use as well...you will get much more consistent results using a -0dB test tone rather than a -3dB. This is where you run into problems with music and the fact that its dynamic, and some songs will clip and some won't, which is why -0dB works well since no songs are that loud to begin with (and if they are, you should know right off the bat that it is and shouldn't be playing it on your system in the first place)

If you use 0db you are leaving volume control on the table. Music as you pointed out will never reach that level for potentially anything more than transient dynamic peaks (that last milliseconds). So you set it using 0db, then play a song with an average level of -6db and are confused why you can't seem to get any real volume out of the system......because you are limiting your use of the volume knob based on a 0db setting. That was an entirely useless step.

[///M5 2,833]

The DD-1/Oscilloscope is handy when trying to find the max unclipped volume of a head unit or when setting up a line driver/processor.

Absolutely not.

You don't get it...the tool has its uses when used for the correct purpose.

If you are referring to the DD-1, you don't get it. There is no correct purpose or value in it. If you are so sure of it, explain what this is.

Some people seem to think that purpose is setting your gain at a certain frequency and magically all of the other frequencies will be the same which isn't true. If you need clean power at a certain frequency (competing with very high power levels where clean power is a must) then it has its uses...but that's really all it can be used for. As for finding the clipping point of your headunit, while it may be different for every frequency, it at least gives you a reference point.

The DD-1 cannot tell you if your power is clean. Your reasoning for needing it is also dubious. Nor is the reference point on your h/u helpful.

All of this is dependent on what volume tone you use as well...you will get much more consistent results using a -0dB test tone rather than a -3dB. This is where you run into problems with music and the fact that its dynamic, and some songs will clip and some won't, which is why -0dB works well since no songs are that loud to begin with (and if they are, you should know right off the bat that it is and shouldn't be playing it on your system in the first place)

0dB, -3dB -- neither are appropriate which of course you explain yourself afterwards and neither will help consistency.

If you were referring to an Oscope in general my comments also hold true as most don't have enough resolution in the display or analysis power to show the harmonics. If you are referring a $50k storage scope, then by all means it can show you what you might be interested but then you have to question the method and why it's being used and you'll rarely see a use for it in gain setting anyways.

[///M5 2,833]

Competition is one area where it has absolutely no use. IIRC even SMD and Tony have admitted this.

Since we parallel posted I'll just clarify this one step further. By "admitting" what you mean is they actually came on this website and implied that would be a terrible use for it and that no one should use it for that purpose.

Of course they also couldn't step up to the challenge to point out any valid uses for it either.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

I still say we would make a killing with with a 12 volt limiter with an adjustable threshold. We could even charge extra for a tool to set the threshold.

[shizzzon 461]

^^ If you are serious.. We designed something like that.

We are currently marketing a device that monitors and takes action against many things, one being low voltage on the DC side...

The ORIGINAL plan was to actually suppress the values if they surpassed set thresholds but due to costs.... it's already hard enough to market something that hasn't existed in this hobby so keeping the cost down is primary let alone trying to make is suppress the values which would raise cost up SO much to account for the 10-20,000w amps out there that there would be no sale whatsoever.

Try to educate someone why they would wantneed to spend a minimum of $1000 on a device that hasn't existed... They will find every reason in the world to compensate for what it does and do it themselves.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

A grand is way way expensive. Rane and plenty of other companies have been doing it for decades with EQ's, compressors, and limiters combined for cheaper than that.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

The trick isn't to prove to someone that they need something. The trick is to get someone with clout to get there branding behind it.

[///M5 2,833]

The trick isn't to prove to someone that they need something. The trick is to get someone with clout to get there branding behind it.

But then it doesn't have to work or have a function that is useful. DD-1 exemplifies this. Pretty easy to take money from nooblets if you have that "clout" or "branding". Of course in the case of something non-useful it's theft from your customers IMO.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

^^^ yep yep